Will bringing up kids in Ireland outside of the church ruin their education?

vibe666

the short version: possibly a silly question (at least I think it is) but how would not being brought up catholic affect my/our future children's education in Ireland? (scroll down to "the big question" if you can't be ar$ed to read the details of my problem)

the long version: my fiancée is a lapsed catholic. she doesn't go to church unless its for someone else s wedding or her nieces confirmation or something like that and she has very little in the way of faith at all, but her family was brought up catholic in catholic schools so it's been beaten into her from an early age.

i on the other hand grew up in the UK with very little in the way of church or religion and no particular faith whatsoever although i think i may have been christened C of E as a baby at some stage.

at 32 now i'm a staunch atheist and do not want my children to be brought up connected to any church, although i'm happy for them to find their own way and will be more than willing for them to pick up any religion they like once they're old enough to decide for themselves, regardless of it being bhuddist, catholic or satanism, whatever they choose is fine by me as long as they don't mind me taking the p1ss out of them that's fine.

now, i never thought much of it until we were watching something and she mentioned about having to bring our future kids up as catholics if we want them to have good schools because without that we have no hope of getting them in anywhere as all the good schools are catholic.

alarm bells started going off right away and i made it clear that there was no way i was letting our kids end up being brain washed by a bunch of kiddy fiddling god botherers and that i was fairly sure it would be illegal for any school to discriminate against a child on the basis of his/her religion (or lack thereof) and what the frack was she getting all upset about when she hasn't been to church for herself for about 15 years or more since she was a teenager?

the big question: so, are all the decent schools catholic? and if so, are they legally allowed to give preference to catholic kids preference over non-catholics and if so would our kids be excluded from a decent education if they were not catholic or of some other religion?

i'm in navan btw, but who knows where we'll be come schooltime, it's going to be at least 4-5 years before they (our as yet un-conceived kids) are old enough for this to be an issue.

i'm sure i've heard somewhere that the church os going to be withdrawing from schools altogether soon anyway, so would that soft out my problem?

Shane_C

vibe666 wrote: »

i'm sure i've heard somewhere that the church os going to be withdrawing from schools altogether soon anyway, so would that soft out my problem?

Never going to happen.


I know it is possible (legal) for schools to fire or discriminate against non catholic teachers however I don't know about children.

dvpower

I don't think the best schools are Catholic, but the most schools certainly are.

I would be inclined to send my child to the best possible school (within a reasonable distance) regardless of its orientation.

Catholic schools do accept non Catholics although some of them may have an enrolment policy that places catholic children before non catholics. You should check out the policies of the schools in your area; they can vary. They usually offer first places to children living in the parish, then siblings of existing pupils, then other Catholics, then everyone else. So having a non catholic child may not be an issue at all when it come to gaining a place.

You might have some concern about the practical effects of a catholic ethos in the school. There will be prayers in the school and other religious indoctrination. A non catholic can opt out, but this is far from ideal. As far as I know, a non catholic can also opt-in; go through the motions of the daily prayers. This is also far from ideal, but might just make for a smoother ride.

Anyway, I wouldn't hold out any hope for a radical change to the status quo any time soon.

Shane_C

Happened to come across something of interest on countmeout.ie:

Catholic schools in Ireland have the right to refuse the enrolment of children who are not Catholic i.e. not baptised. The Equal Status Act of 2000 states that:

"where the establishment is a school providing primary or post-primary education to students and the objective of the school is to provide education in an environment which promotes certain religious values, it admits persons of a particular religious denomination in preference to others or it refuses to admit as a student a person who is not of that denomination and, in the case of a refusal, it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school."


A similar provision is outlined in the guidelines for the board of management of national schools i.e.

"Care must be taken to ensure that the criteria do not lead to discrimination on grounds set out in Section 6(2) of the Employment Equality Acts, 1998 - 2004, i.e., gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race & member of the Travelling Community, with the exception of Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act regarding the protection of a school's ethos."


Article 42, Section 2 of the constitution states that the Irish state is obliged to provide for free primary education. Article 44, Section 2.3 of the constitution also states that:

"The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status."

Hope it helps

edanto

vibe666, it's not something with an easy solution. Over 92% of the primary schools are controlled by the Catholic church and as per the ESA 2000 quote above, they are legally allowed to discriminate based on the religion of the child (as are muslim and buddhist schools).

Although as Dawkins would say, there is no such thing as a religious child, just a child of religious parents.

Your only hope is that there is an Educate Together school near you, for example this one http://www.community.meath.ie/navaneducatetogether

The ET schools believe that the school should give guidance in general ethics and morals and that parents should give any religious instruction that they want to. I hope that these schools grow and grow, and people support them by sending their children, and more can open.

My reasons are selfish - in a few years I'll be in your situation (I hope) and at that stage I don't want to be limited to just the local religious schools.

You're right in that you've heard something recently about the church withdrawing from schooling, but frankly it's only a platitude based on recent news and in all likelihood the church could never give up the control they have of primary schools, as the membership numbers would drop off drastically.

vibe666

thanks for the info guys, i don't know if it's going to help me or not, but that navan ET (extra terrestrials?:D) school looks like a great idea.

Mena

Short answer to your question is no, it won't ruin their education. And my daughter is in an ET school and we've found them nothing short of excellent.

getz

the state/catholic church can no longer discriminate in schooling, all children from the EU must be granted access to the education system, COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2004/114/ec,2004/38/ec ,2003/c134/ 04, com[2001]678,

Dades

Doesn't that just mean they have to be schooled, rather than be given a place in the closest/best/most convenient school?

thragon

ET schools excellent. One kid finished. One kid in going into fourth. Balanced, diverse, open. Kids love(d) it.

vibe666

good to know, thanks.

Tim Robbins

vibe666 wrote: »

thanks for the info guys, i don't know if it's going to help me or not, but that navan ET (extra terrestrials?:D) school looks like a great idea.

We have baby number one due in November :-) I'm atheist, wife is mild Protestant.

We plan to put the baby's name down in all the ET's school within a ten mile radius.

I see it as my moral duty to not support the RC apartheid system of education and nazi control and covering up of child abuse scandals.

whatdoicare

I wish religion and education weren't tied in together- I used to find it a bit embarrassing having to listen to religious classes when I was younger knowing full well that I didn't believe a word of it.
I'm hating the thought of having to put my children through that- and I'll have to do all the religious stuff to- how can I explain to a child that they can't be like all their friends and have a communion and confirmation....?? It's gonna just be easier to go through all the rubbish for the sake of a quieter life...
If there was a non religious school in my area (city even) I'd probably go out of my way to send them to that one.

edanto

Have a look at the Educate Together movement - they are springing up all over the place, parents are seeing them as the superior alternative to faith-based education.

If you really are as passionate as your post reads, you could make a donation to help them on their way. It's pretty tough to compete against the wealth/influence of the church and the inertia of the state.

thetoken

OP keep your kids away from this bullsh1t. They brainwash children.

Tipsygypsy

My kids go to an Educate Together, we have to travel 30 mins each way twice a day to get them there and back but I thinkits so very very worth it.
I went to a catholic school (as a non catholic) and hated it, couldnt bare all the praying before every class (in Irish). THe religion classes werent too bad, but thats because I mostly had very open-minded teachers... excluding the one who told us it was a MORTAL SIN to kiss boys...
I wouldnt for a second associate catholic schools with being the best schools, and I wouldnt ever send my kids to one.
By the way.. religion isnt the only reason I love the Educate Together model, theres lots of reasons why I like it.... cant recommend it highly enough.

Trouble

I have firstborn registered in the local Educate Together school. I will not sent him to a religious school. There are options available to most people in Ireland regarding not having to send your kids to religious schools, but I appreciate that there are people in rural areas limited to a religious option.
Anyone that says that they are prepared to brainwash their kids with religion because they are the best schools are the crux of the problem. Any child can thrive in any school. Education is not just about the school it is the responsibility of the parent also.

Religious schools do discriminate against non religious kids. Even if you do get in to the religious school, while the other kids are doing religious education (during school time) or going to the church to practice for communion or conformation or other arcane rituals your child will be idle missing out education.

In Educate together schools religion is an extra curricular activity arranged by the parents if they so choose to do and is not organised by the school (whatever religion). The children in Educate Together schools do learn about the different religions of the world and what they are and who practices them but are not indoctrinated into one or the other.