Bus halts at motorway junctions

westtip

There is some debate ongoing on the infamous WRC thread bout buses v trains and on the thread re the ghost trains running on the Limerick/Wateford line, here is a thought as a separate issue. With the undoubted improvements in our road system; in particular with the interurbans. To facilitate faster inter-urban public transport (and this is not a bus v train issue), why can't we have bus halts at key junctions near large towns for the inter-urban buses. The idea being that the buses from say Dublin to Galway - would not have to pull to far off the interurban to, for example drop passengers off in the middle of a town the route serves at say somewhere like Moate (or even Athlone for that matter), at relatively low cost and with little land use, a good quality bus shelter, a safe parking bay, could be built at or very close to various junctions along each interurban route. Everybody has a mobile phone now - so getting collected from these halts would be easy to manage - you call a taxi or person collecting you and you have a limited time at the bus stop. At the larger towns minibus shuttle services could provide a service to meet the "mainline" buses. Technology would make it easy for all information to be displayed at bus halts about arrivals/departures/delays etc. Using a system like this the speed of buses on the new inter-urbans could provide a public transprot service that would almost compete with private motor cars, in fact with buses using bus lanes on the approaches to larger urban areas they would probably be faster than the car.

This approach would combine the express non stop service, with a frequent stopping service but the time lost on coming off the interurbans and entering the town of destination would not hit the overall speed of the total journey.

Thoughts anyone?

Hagar

Stopping on motorways to let passengers off?
Then the passengers wait on the side of a motorway near junctions to be picked up by private cars which are also going to stop or are already stopped at the side of motorway?
A receipe for mayhem, way too dangerous.

liamog

I'm presuming that your trying to play devils advocate here. I think this is a terrible idea.

Whilst the idea of out of town halts is not without some merit, I feel that using cell phones to order taxi's/friends to give you lift is a terrible idea. If the service was backed up with local feeder routes that were properly integrated ie Local bus arrives before National Bus and leaves after National Bus, then it could work, but this would have to be a whole new route in order to cater for any delays on the national bus. This then leads to where does the feeder bus go?

As the majority of bus systems are based on radial travel the feeder bus would end up being a shuttle between the centre and the halt.

westtip

Hagar wrote: »

Stopping on motorways to let passengers off?
Then the passengers wait on the side of a motorway near junctions to be picked up by private cars which are also going to stop or are already stopped at the side of motorway?
A receipe for mayhem, way too dangerous.

If you read the OP this is not at all what I suggested or if it read that way then please apply some common sense to interpret what I said; the buses would go up the slip road and come off the motorway of course, near the motorway junction there would be a small facility maybe two bus bays and parking for taxis and pick up and drop off cars; the buses would pull off the motorway and would not have to go into the local town as they would set down and pick up passengers in the safe enviroment of the bus halt/station, the buses could then get back on the interurban quite quickly and continue the journey. Passengers would then either use taxis, shuttle bus or private collection to move on to their final destinaton. I was not suggesting dropping passengers in the hard shoulder near motorway junctions!

liamog wrote: »

I'm presuming that your trying to play devils advocate here. I think this is a terrible idea.

Whilst the idea of out of town halts is not without some merit, I feel that using cell phones to order taxi's/friends to give you lift is a terrible idea.
.

What on earth is this about? My idea is simply that as you sit on the bus the bus driver announce in ten minutes time we will be reaching the Moate junction dropping halt, out of town bus stop - call it what you like - OK so you as a passenger pick up the phone and say "Hi Dad I'm on the bus and will be at the bus stop in ten minutes" Dad then jumps in the car and collects you, why pray tell me is this such a "terrible idea" I am completely baffled!

Hagar

The OP never mentioned a slip road he said "a safe parking bay, could be built at or very close to various junctions". It wasn't clear to me from the post that the bay would be completely away from the motorway.

If the bus pulls off the motorway via the normal slip roads into a set down area with adequate safe parking for the pick-up cars and possibly feeder busses waiting it could work. But at what cost?

westtip

Hagar wrote: »

If the bus pulls off the motorway via the normal slip roads into a set down area with adequate safe parking for the pick-up cars and possibly feeder busses waiting it could work. But at what cost?

About half of an acre would probably suffice; at what cost, well as ever if a network of such facilities had been thought about and built at the time the inter-urbans were being built not a great deal - all thats needed is probably one "platform" of a raised curbed area with a bus shelter in the middle, and clear parking areas for taxis and private pick up cars, its not exactly high tech construction. Maintenance costs would be very low, there would be some security issues, and the technology cost for information screens could be done by mobile telephone technology. The whole thing would not cost a great deal, and would IMO improve overall journey times for express buses considerably.

Hagar wrote: »

The OP never mentioned a slip road he said "a safe parking bay, could be built at or very close to various junctions". It wasn't clear to me from the post that the bay would be completely away from the motorway.

Just on this point this is what I said in the OP (see below), I am not sure how unclear it is but I stand corrected that I did not say the buses would be expected to drive up the slip road and leave the motorway to drop off passengers at the specifically built drop off halts - what I said in the OP is below (is it really that unclear??)

westtip wrote: »

To facilitate faster inter-urban public transport (and this is not a bus v train issue), why can't we have bus halts at key junctions near large towns for the inter-urban buses. The idea being that the buses from say Dublin to Galway - would not have to pull to far off the interurban to, for example drop passengers off in the middle of a town the route serves at say somewhere like Moate (or even Athlone for that matter), at relatively low cost and with little land use, a good quality bus shelter, a safe parking bay, could be built at or very close to various junctions along each interurban route. ?

Genghis

Aircoach does this on its Dublin Cork route to pick up passengers at Portlaoise. Stop must be 6km from town and is literally the roundabout at the flyover (i.e. no dedicated bay as you suggest). I am not sure how many people use it, I do know that the bus used come through the town and later changed.

serfboard

I'm all in favour of your idea, OP. There's another good example of what you propose at Maynooth (though not as advanced). The bus goes a small distance off the motorway to a bus stop which is near the train station. (Wow - sounds like "planning" :eek:).

Bus Park & Ride adjacent to motorways is really what you're advocating, and you will see discussions here on boards about this topic. IIRC, there was an Oireachtas committee which asked the county managers of counties in the Greater Dublin Area what their plans were for Bus Park & Ride - answer - none!

Terrontress

I see it as being a great idea. The worst part of most bus journeys is the trip in and out of intermediate towns, getting through the traffic etc. If traffic for these intermediate stops could, on 50% of journeys be dropped off a short distance from the motorway it would save loads of time.

From my days at Coleraine university, I remember some form of a stop just off the M2 North of Belfast around Antrim, Ballymena way.

liamog

But in the situation you describe where you phone the parents when you reach the bus halt, how does this help people who don't have a person to call? Your other suggestion was for taxi's. A taxi could add a substantial cost to the travel. This is why a feeder bus would be needed.

Not everybody has someone they can call in every town to pick them up on demand. The counter argument to this is that the old service could still run into town, but is their really enougth demand for two services to serve the route?

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

I'm all in favour of your idea, OP. There's another good example of what you propose at Maynooth (though not as advanced). The bus goes a small distance off the motorway to a bus stop which is near the train station. (Wow - sounds like "planning" :eek:).

Bus Park & Ride adjacent to motorways is really what you're advocating, and you will see discussions here on boards about this topic. IIRC, there was an Oireachtas committee which asked the county managers of counties in the Greater Dublin Area what their plans were for Bus Park & Ride - answer - none!

I have seen that bus stop at Maynooth - and its a good idea - I am not really advocating park and ride though - its more drop off and be picked up or drop off and get on the bus. It is really to keep the mainline express buses moving, and back on the motorway as quickly as possible.

liamog wrote: »

But in the situation you describe where you phone the parents when you reach the bus halt, how does this help people who don't have a person to call? Your other suggestion was for taxi's. A taxi could add a substantial cost to the travel. This is why a feeder bus would be needed.

Not everybody has someone they can call in every town to pick them up on demand. The counter argument to this is that the old service could still run into town, but is their really enougth demand for two services to serve the route?

I think you are getting too hung up on the detail here! I agree a feeder bus would be ideal, or taxi companies may latch onto it and offer a shared taxi service into the local town to lessen the cost for people but the feeder bus would probably be possible for larger towns, I think most people who get the bus do have someone they can call on to pick them up from a rail station or bus station, but there are some billy no mates out there - I used the example of ringing Dad to collect me just as a thought - as a father I naturally double up as a taxi driver, I am not saying everyone has someone to call on in every town - but I would hazard at a guess that if you are getting off the bus at say Moate - you will know someone there! There may be a negative in regard to tourists travelling around and getting seemingly "dumped" off buses at motorway junctions but managed properly I think the idea has some merit.

Terrontress

westtip wrote: »

I have seen that bus stop at Maynooth - and its a good idea - I am not really advocating park and ride though - its more drop off and be picked up or drop off and get on the bus. It is really to keep the mainline express buses moving, and back on the motorway as quickly as possible.



I think you are getting too hung up on the detail here! I agree a feeder bus would be ideal, or taxi companies may latch onto it and offer a shared taxi service into the local town to lessen the cost for people but the feeder bus would probably be possible for larger towns, I think most people who get the bus do have someone they can call on to pick them up from a rail station or bus station, but there are some billy no mates out there - I used the example of ringing Dad to collect me just as a thought - as a father I naturally double up as a taxi driver, I am not saying everyone has someone to call on in every town - but I would hazard at a guess that if you are getting off the bus at say Moate - you will know someone there! There may be a negative in regard to tourists travelling around and getting seemingly "dumped" off buses at motorway junctions but managed properly I think the idea has some merit.

Certainly does. Let's be fair, nobody, or very few, live within walking distance of the bus station for inter-urban routes. So most people need a lift, taxi or second bus when they get off the existing services. With this proposed method, a lot of this traffic will be taken out of the town centre. Add to that the speeding up of the bus route in general and I think it is a real winner.

liamog

I'll admit I am getting hung up on the detail, but it is only by getting the details right that ideas like this work. For distributed public transport systems to work effectivley it has to be integrated.

Terrontress

liamog wrote: »

I'll admit I am getting hung up on the detail, but it is only by getting the details right that ideas like this work. For distributed public transport systems to work effectivley it has to be integrated.

Come on! This is Ireland. If we were interested in doing things properly we'd go and live in Switzerland or Germany or something.

liamog

Terrontress wrote: »

Come on! This is Ireland. If we were interested in doing things properly we'd go and live in Switzerland or Germany or something.

Which is exactly the attitude that results in things not being done properly in the first place.

The problem I see is that so often ideas liked this are only partially implemented. They only work well if the whole structure is in place from the start, your idea being a classic example, yes the idea is not without merit, but the support strucutre has to be in place for it to work well. Too often projects in Ireland ignore the big picture and then we end up spending money to fix things that could of been done right in the first place.

glineli

I think this is a great idea. I see buses going from limerick to galway that need to go all the way into Ennis Station. This is a waste and congesting up traffic in urban stations.

I think with a little bit of effort this could be a real goer.

serfboard

liamog wrote: »

the idea is not without merit, but the support strucutre has to be in place for it to work well.

Yes, but hold on a second. The existing bus stops don't take everybody to their final destination. You either have to walk or get a lift/taxi to your house/hotel/pub. I think that local hackneys could be well placed to pick people up at these bus stops and use shared journeys to lower the costs.

antoinolachtnai

It could be worth subsidizing the taxi ride from the bus stop to at the motorway to the town. This would be cheaper than running a feeder bus.

If you paid the driver 7500/year to be available to pick up passengers 5 times a day at a certain place and bring them to the town at a maximum fare of 3 euros each, that would seem like a pretty good deal all round.

There is a paper somewhere about setting up this type of coach network, by a guy called Storkey. There is a summary of it here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

Generally coaches are a pretty economic way to transport people around, and if you were to increase the speed limit for them, pretty fast too.

To make it all work, you need investment in road junctions designed to give priority to coaches, but it's not really very expensive in mass transport terms.

Amtmann

Lone girl gets off bus at one of these stops at around 9pm on a dark winter's night and is never seen again... Some of the junctions are a good bit outside of the towns. I see the merit, don't get me wrong, but I see drawbacks too.

westtip

Furet wrote: »

Lone girl gets off bus at one of these stops at around 9pm on a dark winter's night and is never seen again... Some of the junctions are a good bit outside of the towns. I see the merit, don't get me wrong, but I see drawbacks too.

Yes I made the OP and agree with that sentiment, but it is a matter of balance; security would need to be in place, good cameras etc, but the drawbacks you mention apply to many parts of urban living and are not a reason to knock the idea; the idea I proposed in the OP was really to say if the facility for a safe drop off point/halt were near the junctions could it realistically be used; I think the answer is yes. And the idea could be funded by users (Bus companies) paying a licence to use these halts; your fears could well be overcome.

L1011

serfboard wrote: »

I'm all in favour of your idea, OP. There's another good example of what you propose at Maynooth (though not as advanced). The bus goes a small distance off the motorway to a bus stop which is near the train station. (Wow - sounds like "planning" :eek:).

That turning bay is only about 300m from the main street! It was built as the terminus for the Dublin Bus 67A back in the days that all Bus Eireann buses ran down the main street instead, so unfortunately there wasn't any planning there; just luck.

AlekSmart

That turning bay is only about 300m from the main street! It was built as the terminus for the Dublin Bus 67A back in the days that all Bus Eireann buses ran down the main street instead, so unfortunately there wasn't any planning there; just luck.

Ahhh Maynooth,yes just plain random luck....of a fashion.
If on a Bus Eireann service you as the Coach Driver must be prepared to wait until (If) doting parent,spouse,lover,neighbour is prepared to move their car to first allow the Coach to access the kerb.

Then wait until the goodbye`s are made and then,possibly the luggage is stowed before finally attempting to perform a somewhat tricky (actually,Dangerous) U (ish) turn often with a full coach to head BACK towards the N/M4.

None of the NRA,s or Kildare Co Co`s INCREDIBLY qualified Planners and Assorted Professional Types actually bothered to enquire into the actual dynamics of how this little "Facility" ACTUALLY operates.

With a very Small amount of considerate and pro-active Traffic Management this place could indeed be a model for similar countrywide locations.

However,it needs to be remembered that Bus Éireann in particular view themselves as a last bastion of the "Are u Right There Michael" approach which requires access directly into the centre of every rural population centre it serves.......we are not really tuned into what Mororway Principles are actually about....... :eek:

parsi

Sounds like a plan for Ryanbus - don't get the bus to Limerick get it to the nearest Motorway Junction.

However if fully thought out and implemented with a proper feeder structure it could be an option.