breaking the rules

getfit

I was just told that a guy from my club was reported to the gui for kicking his ball out of the rough - to obviously gain an advantage. What is the usual punishment for a situation like this? Very disappointed to be honest, seemingly he was a past captain and it makes you wonder how many other supposed "respectable golfers" have done the same. There's many a long par 4 or par 5 hole which would have gone from a high risk, high slog hole out of the rough to an easy hole out on the fairway. I've signed for many a frustrating 20 points by always playing by the rules... I thought he should get the book thrown at him, banned from comps or excluded from the club (or any club) for x amount of years....

Have people heard what the usual punishment is? What's peoples general reaction.

PeterJamesDoyle

I think he should get suspended for some duration. It would make him think long and hard about what he did.

I remember hearing first hand about a captain in the South East (won't mention any names), during his captains year, during a club competition. He was seen kicking a ball out from under a tree. One of his playing partners saw him and confronted him. He denied it.

Its as bad as guys who pull on their handicap. Who are they kidding? Do they think their fellow members are going to respect them more, just by getting a win now and then? Too many people have taken up this game just for material gain. It sickens my sh*t!! The honour is slowly being sucked out the game.

PhilipMarlowe

Suspension for a looooonnnnnnnng time for starters. Would cut 10+ shots off their handicap too but maybe they might use it as a badge... but can't you have an exact handicap of 16.3 and a playing handicap of 6?
I have heard of guys being suspended, having their handicaps reduced... to be honest, how could you face your fellow members again? Then again, to cheat (I'm not talking about breaking a rule through ignorance) in the first place you'd want a thick neck.

Woodgate

PeterJamesDoyle wrote: »

I think he should get suspended for some duration. It would make him think long and hard about what he did.

I remember hearing first hand about a captain in the South East (won't mention any names), during his captains year, during a club competition. He was seen kicking a ball out from under a tree. One of his playing partners saw him and confronted him. He denied it.

Its as bad as guys who pull on their handicap. Who are they kidding? Do they think their fellow members are going to respect them more, just by getting a win now and then? Too many people have taken up this game just for material gain. It sickens my sh*t!! The honour is slowly being sucked out the game.

I know exactly who you are talking about, I heard the same about him myself.
Why would anyone do this or anything like it, one rumour or accusation and you might as well give up the game.

Jasonw

I think the title of the thread may be wrong. All golfers break the rules at some stage either through ignorance or neglect. What that guy did, if true, is cheating.

I have to say that it is very commonplace. There has been a couple of occassions on which I've observed players marking their ball pushing the marker right under the ball and then replacing it 2 inches in front of the marker. They are usually canny enough to only do it when the ball is in the 5 foot range where it might make a difference.

On one occasion I watched a member do exactly that on the first 4 holes of a competition. on the 5th he did it again and I confronted him. He claimed he didn't realise he was doing it, refused to shake my hand on the 18th and hasn't spoken to me since.

After that I made a decision that I would only point out breaches of the rules to single figure handicappers.

I played an open competition just yesterday. my playing partners were discussing club selection on the par 3 6th. even though they were 5 and 8 h'cappers I let it slide until they got to the green and one asked the other to leave his ball by the hole to help his chip.

I played a junior scratch earlier this year and my PP was using a rangefinder even though no local rule was in place permitting their use.

It's very dissapointing. Especially when you see the pros calling penaltys on themselves in the full knowledge that each shot further down the field they end up means the loss of tens of thousands of euro in earnings

Jasonw

oh, and to answer the OP's original question. I think the best punishment would be a 1 day suspension from competitions and a notice sent around to all clubs to be posted on their noticeboard with his name and what he was suspended for.

The fear of being so publicly shamed would put anyone off the idea of cheating.

randomer

Jasonw wrote: »

I played an open competition just yesterday. my playing partners were discussing club selection on the par 3 6th. even though they were 5 and 8 h'cappers I let it slide until they got to the green and one asked the other to leave his ball by the hole to help his chip.

Wow, I just googled that. I wasn't aware that it was a two shot penalty. I thought it was just golf etiquette. Bear in mind that I have been playing golf since April!

Is there a list that anyone can recommend that shows common rookie mistakes? I would really like to avoid these type of mistakes.

When I line up my putts I use a line on the ball. If I turn the spin the ball slightly to align the ball but the ball does not move from the spot, am I required to my ball marker on the ground, or is it ok to just rotate the ball slightly without it moving from the position?

randomer

Did another google search and found this:

http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/commonpenalties.htm

Paulusmaximus

I have heard of a couple of instances where people have cheated to keep their handicap. One by recording a higher score than what he had so that he wouldn't be cut and another where he didn't want to get a .1 changed a 6 to a 5 and thought he would then be in the buffer zone. What happened then was weather conditions decreased rapidly and he ended up in the prizes and one of his playing partner's who thought he'd beaten him by one did not and reported it.

Both resulted in a suspension from their club for 6 months and suspension of handicap for the same length of time.

alxmorgan

I know its slightly off topic but under the ignorance as opposed to cheating category I'll ask anyway.
Wasn't a competition anyway so just interested in the rule.

Drive ended up in woods. Found the ball but was unplayable.
Now as far as I understand I can drop two club lengths sideways (not nearer the hole) or as far back as i want keeping the point the ball was at directly between me and the hole.
I dropped a few feet directly behind as going sideways was no help and I'd have to go back about 100 yards to get out of the trees.
Ended up hacking it out of trees and onto fairway.
(And followed that by knocking it straight into the water but thats another story)

So did I break any rules ?

Also if when I droped the ball it again ended up unplayable (which was quite likely given the terrain) what would/could I have done then ?

death1234567

Some aul fella was caught cheating in comp's in my old club a few years ago and they booted him out. Proper order I say.

Myksyk

randomer wrote: »

When I line up my putts I use a line on the ball. If I turn the spin the ball slightly to align the ball but the ball does not move from the spot, am I required to my ball marker on the ground, or is it ok to just rotate the ball slightly without it moving from the position?

You must mark it before touching it.

I dropped a few feet directly behind as going sideways was no help and I'd have to go back about 100 yards to get out of the trees.
Ended up hacking it out of trees and onto fairway.
(And followed that by knocking it straight into the water but thats another story)

So did I break any rules ?

No. The drop of two club lengths is 'not nearer the hole'. It can be in any direction. If you dropped and it was unplayable again you could invoke the same rule under the same penalty.

alxmorgan

Myksyk wrote: »

If you dropped and it was unplayable again you could invoke the same rule under the same penalty.

Ouch - that would have been nasty.

GreeBo

Myksyk wrote: »

If you dropped and it was unplayable again you could invoke the same rule under the same penalty.

Just to clarify, if you do drop and then decide that that one is unplayable you have forfeited your right to replay the last shot (as the last shot was now the drop) So you can drop again or go back as far as you want...often this means u are screwed.

Thats why you are often better off not finding your ball if its likely to be unplayable and your provo is a foot from the pin and also why "having a go" at getting it out and failing is often a disaster as you are now stuck there (or back as far as you like...deeper into the forest )

PhilipMarlowe

When taking a drop under unplayable, you'd want to pretty sure that your ball would be playable afterwards! Better to suck it up and go back whatever distance or go back and re-hit if that's not practical.
Didn't it happen to Johnny Slow in the final group of the PGA last year, first hole... was stuck under a tree, took an unplayable and was still under the tree, down on his knees trying to hack out.. should have gone back to the tee. Took an 8 I think? I know I wasn't sad for him anyway

edit, it was a 7
http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/2008/scoring/scorecards/27141.html

Mister Sifter

I think a minimum ban of 12 months from competition would be the least he deserves.

A female member was caught with the magic pencil at my old club and she was banned for 24 months. She no longer plays at all.

GreeBo

Was playing behind the captain, ex-president and some randomer at the weekend and it took 4.5 hours as they lost a hole while sheltering from the rain.

Not impressed as at least 1 of them is low single figures (and I missed the first half of the Lions match!)

Dylan69

Played a comp last year in Cork. appartenly my playing partner hit his ball into the water and took a drop but instead he teed it up and took the shot, the ball landed on the green. Now i wasn't aware of this until another player saw him and told me. I asked my playing partner and he admit he had done it so he was given a penalty stroke by myslef and another player.

What we didnt know at the end of the round after signing the card that he should had got a 2 penalty shot and possibly disqualifcation.

Waht you think

As for kicking the ball away, i think a 3 month ban is sufficent and freeze his GUI card so he can't play competition :mad:

kenco

I agree with a long ban for knowingly breaking the rules. I have played plenty of time with people who dont actually know the rules do something wrong but if its not of any benefit to them I just politely advise them of the issue and the penalty. In most cases they take the advice well and are mortified.

In one round however I had an incident with a guy who swore blind that he could drop out of oob as he had found the ball. Could not persuade him otherwise and told him I could not sign his card but he persisted. I did not sign the card and have not seen him since.

All in all as said before genuine errors happen all the time and normally most players whck with their partners to clarify rules but the other deliberate cheating has no place in the game and needs to be stamped out.

stockdam

For discussion purposes I am going to play devil's advocate.

If somebody is caught cheating then I'd give them a short 1 month ban. It is possible that either they weren't aware of the rules (not in this case though) or else they just did something out of character and stupid (maybe they have personal problems in their life).

Then if they do something similar again then the penalty is increased to 6 months to a year. Next time it's curtains.

I'm not advocating letting anyone off but I'm sure there are times when people make genuine mistakes or whatever.

Mister Sifter

stockdam wrote: »

For discussion purposes I am going to play devil's advocate.

If somebody is caught cheating then I'd give them a short 1 month ban. It is possible that either they weren't aware of the rules (not in this case though) or else they just did something out of character and stupid (maybe they have personal problems in their life).

Then if they do something similar again then the penalty is increased to 6 months to a year. Next time it's curtains.

I'm not advocating letting anyone off but I'm sure there are times when people make genuine mistakes or whatever.

It depends on the crime obviously, but i think any punishment has to send a warning to anyone else in the club. The thoughts of no golf for 12 months scares me, not to mention the embarassment and shame of it.

Kicking a ball out the rough is about as low as it gets in golf.

alxmorgan

Take your point Stockdam and I'm not getting into the whole suspension penalties etc but what we seem to be talking about here is not an unintentional breaking of the rules but rather intentional ones i.e. cheating

jimbling

I think the embarrassment and shame is the main deterrent/punishment when it comes to cheating in golf.
From a banning perspective I would say a short enough period (say a month) would be plenty.
Obviously, the more series the cheating the more serious the ban. And also would get much more severe for a second offence.

K4t

Jasonw wrote: »

I played an open competition just yesterday. my playing partners were discussing club selection on the par 3 6th. even though they were 5 and 8 h'cappers I let it slide until they got to the green and one asked the other to leave his ball by the hole to help his chip.

This is a strange one.

If your playing partner asks you if they should mark their ball and you say no, then I see no problem tbh. I don't think it's breaking any rules as far as I know?

DonkeyPokerTour

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Kicking a ball out the rough is about as low as it gets in golf.

What about kicking the ball back into the rough? Two thursdays ago I was hacking out of the very long stuff and shanked it, it hit off my foot and went back into the rough. While I hopped around on one leg in a great deal of pain, my playing parthners rolled around in tears on the green. Will I get a year ban for this?

But in all honesty kicking the ball out of the rough is something we all joke about, "the good auld foot wedge", but I've never seen anyone actually do it!

Mister Sifter

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

What about kicking the ball back into the rough? Two thursdays ago I was hacking out of the very long stuff and shanked it, it hit off my foot and went back into the rough. While I hopped around on one leg in a great deal of pain, my playing parthners rolled around in tears on the green. Will I get a year ban for this?

But in all honesty kicking the ball out of the rough is something we all joke about, "the good auld foot wedge", but I've never seen anyone actually do it!

Yep a year ban and a sore paw sounds about fair!:D

Just thinking, that must have been some shank! Normally the ball flies off to the right with a shank. How the heck did you manage to hit your foot!?!

copacetic

Hitting yourself or your bag/partner or his bag is a one shot penalty too I think?

Jasonw

K4t wrote: »

This is a strange one.

If your playing partner asks you if they should mark their ball and you say no, then I see no problem tbh. I don't think it's breaking any rules as far as I know?

Rule 22-1b

also see decisions on rules of golf 22/6

Just to clarify the player who was off the green asked the player whose ball was in position to assist his play not to mark his ball.

Mister Sifter

copacetic wrote: »

Hitting yourself or your bag/partner or his bag is a one shot penalty too I think?

I always thought that too but someone told me recently they'd changed it and that it was only a penalty if it hits yourself or your own bag.

copacetic

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I always thought that too but someone told me recently they'd changed it and that it was only a penalty if it hits yourself or your own bag.

Sorry I meant your partner in a team comp. Then I think you are considered the one team so hitting a 'team bag' for instance is a penalty?

Jasonw

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I always thought that too but someone told me recently they'd changed it and that it was only a penalty if it hits yourself or your own bag.

Depends if it is a fellow competitor - no penalty

If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his

partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a

penalty of one stroke.

DonkeyPokerTour

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Yep a year ban and a sore paw sounds about fair!:D

Just thinking, that must have been some shank! Normally the ball flies off to the right with a shank. How the heck did you manage to hit your foot!?!

I've written to my club sectary to inform him that I must be suspended for a year, as handed down by GUI chairman Graeme1982.

I still dont know really how it happened but my ball was in the rough and there was gorse behind it so I was standing ahead of the ball, and "hacking" it out, and it really whacked my foot, didn't give myself a penelty but irrelevant really as it was V-Par and I lost the hole with or without the penelty!

Also found the greatest way to cheat in the world. If your just off the green, take the flag stick out and lay it about 2 foot behind the hole, now putt your ball and if you miss the hole it'll hit the flag stick and you can knock in your two footer! Will save countless strokes every round

Mister Sifter

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

I've written to my club sectary to inform him that I must be suspended for a year, as handed down by GUI chairman Graeme1982.

I still dont know really how it happened but my ball was in the rough and there was gorse behind it so I was standing ahead of the ball, and "hacking" it out, and it really whacked my foot, didn't give myself a penelty but irrelevant really as it was V-Par and I lost the hole with or without the penelty!

Also found the greatest way to cheat in the world. If your just off the green, take the flag stick out and lay it about 2 foot behind the hole, now putt your ball and if you miss the hole it'll hit the flag stick and you can knock in your two footer! Will save countless strokes every round

Genius... but you should lie it along the side of the hole then putt the ball against the pin with a bit of pace and it'll run along the edge of it and into the pot.

One for you to try out in 12 months time.

DonkeyPokerTour

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Genius... but you should lie it along the side of the hole then putt the ball against the pin with a bit of pace and it'll run along the edge of it and into the pot.

One for you to try out in 12 months time.

Ok so now all I have to do is take one club out of my bag, for my new "foot wedge". I think it'll have to be a wedge cos I cant justify 5 wedges. Then I have to make sure to miss the green but not by much and I'll make birdies all day. This time next year i'll be a scratch golfer!

Screed

All are aware that the R&A have a rule book and if you have read it completely you know it will wreck your head. So on that note, I bet not many know that they also have a book on the decisions on the rule book. Now that is a book that will destroy your head. I have read both I read the new rules book when ever they produce it. I have read the decisions book once.

Here is the link
http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/decisions/decisions.html

If someone in my group has breached a rule and I see it. I simply say do you know you incurred a penalty there. You will know by a person’s reaction if they genuinely knew if they broke a rule or not. I recently played with a group of 3 people they were all friends I knew one of them. One player went back to replay a ball as he had lost it. We walked on and a friend pulled his trolley forward for him leaving it under a tree by the next tee box. His shot came over the tee box and hit his bag so as he walked down I said to the others he’s just incurred another 2 shot penalty. Don’t tell him they said he will be pi**ed. I said I don’t care lads it’s a penalty and I duly told him. There was no issue. I recently refused to sign a card of someone else but that’s another story.

Cheating is Cheating. Ignorance of the rules is different. A person who is ignorant of the rules can be taught the rules. If a cheat wants to cheat no one can stop them.