Question about Protestant Landlords

Mr Marenghi

Hi,

I'm starting work on a short script about a relationship between a protestant landlord and a catholic servant.

A few questions I need cleared up are -

*a protestant landlord would have a large estate, would he have catholic servants ?

*would he have tenants on his land ? Roughly how many ?

*would he charge these tenants rent and/or a tax ?

*the tenants were unhappy having landlords ?

*did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?


Also what years am I looking at with this ? any info I try and find I seem to get conflicting answers for all the above questions,

Any help is much appreciated,

Sean

Morlar

Don't be offended but I think you would need to read a history book or two if you want your script to have any degree of legitimate accuracy.

You would want to read up on things like the land league, land war, young Irelanders etc etc

Here is what looks like a good introductory website to Irish history

http://larkspirit.com/history/

I would probably go through the 'Famine' and the 'Irish history 1500-1900' section.

Your question '*did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?' is probably a tad too open-ended if you don't mind me saying so.

Mr Marenghi

Morlar wrote: »

Don't be offended but I think you would need to read a history book or two if you want your script to have any degree of legitimate accuracy.

You would want to read up on things like the land league, land war, young Irelanders etc etc

Here is what looks like a good introductory website to Irish history

http://larkspirit.com/history/

I would probably go through the 'Famine' and the 'Irish history 1500-1900' section.

Your question '*did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?' is probably a tad too open-ended if you don't mind me saying so.

No that's cool, I completely understand.

At the moment it's just an outline so it doesn't have to be too specific unless I get commissioned for the script, I just needed to know that the story has some sort of accuracy. If it got commissioned then I'd be doing some hardcore research but at the moment any internet research seems to throw up conflicting answers.

Also *did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?'" specifically relates to tenants on a landlords property attacking the landlord and/or his house

McArmalite

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Hi,

I'm starting work on a short script about a relationship between a protestant landlord and a catholic servant.

A few questions I need cleared up are -

*a protestant landlord would have a large estate, would he have catholic servants ?

*would he have tenants on his land ? Roughly how many ?

*would he charge these tenants rent and/or a tax ?

*the tenants were unhappy having landlords ?

*did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?


Also what years am I looking at with this ? any info I try and find I seem to get conflicting answers for all the above questions,

Any help is much appreciated,

Sean

Well since some of the landlords were also Catholic ( including the clergy themselves ) maybe you should approach the subject from a more accurate and indeed, less secterian approach ? Since the landlord class, whether Catholic or Protestant, were undoubtably unionist in their political beliefs, maybe you should unionist/british landlords in the title ?

Mr Marenghi

McArmalite wrote: »

Well since some of the landlords were also Catholic ( including the clergy themselves ) maybe you should approach the subject from a more accurate and indeed, less secterian approach ? Since the landlord class, whether Catholic or Protestant, were undoubtably unionist in their political beliefs, maybe you should unionist/british landlords in the title ?

Cool, that's a really good point.

I guess I just need a source where I can learn about this ? For instance I didn't know clergy were involved, and thats interesting.

Just to also point out that this isn't a story that paints a protestant landlord as a big bad person or anything like that, but like I said I'm definitley lacking with a good source of information, that site that was linked above has dead links on the articles I need.

Thanks

Fratton Fred

You might want to read up on Lord Lucan. not the one who murdered his children's nanny, his grand father i believe it was. The Earl of Lucan's actions in ireland during the famine were so appalling he was singled out in westminster for criticism.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/famine2.html this is a good place to start.

pinkypinky

If you are in Ireland, you could pick up any Leaving Certificate Irish history book and read it cover to cover. Again, no offense meant, but even a basic outline story should have broadly correct history.

Dionysus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You might want to read up on Lord Lucan. not the one who murdered his children's nanny, his grand father i believe it was. The Earl of Lucan's actions in ireland during the famine were so appalling he was singled out in westminster for criticism.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/famine2.html this is a good place to start.

Good link. I never heard of him to be honest. The 19th century landlord who I've heard most about has to be William Sydney Clements, third earl of Leitrim (1806-1878), who was finally assassinated in April 1878.

Anyway, it must be in the Bingham blood. The Lucan forefathers, Richard Bingham (1527/8 -1529) and George Bingham (ob. 1595) were among the most evil, vicious and bloody people Ireland has ever seen.

Fratton Fred

Dionysus wrote: »

Good link. I never heard of him to be honest. The 19th century landlord who I've heard most about has to be William Sydney Clements, third earl of Leitrim (1806-1878), who was finally assassinated in April 1878.

Anyway, it must be in the Bingham blood. The Lucan forefathers, Richard Bingham (1527/8 -1529) and George Bingham (ob. 1595) were among the most evil, vicious and bloody people Ireland has ever seen.

it does appear to have been a family trait.

Mr Marenghi

Great, thanks guys

Ostrom

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

No that's cool, I completely understand.

At the moment it's just an outline so it doesn't have to be too specific unless I get commissioned for the script, I just needed to know that the story has some sort of accuracy. If it got commissioned then I'd be doing some hardcore research but at the moment any internet research seems to throw up conflicting answers.

Also *did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?'" specifically relates to tenants on a landlords property attacking the landlord and/or his house

The attempted assassination of Rev. Nixon by his Donegal tenants is well documented (may have been ribbonmen, I cant remember).

Many such tenants were rackrented year to year by middlemen, particularly from the beginning of the 19th, to the latter half of the 19th century. Many were also 'taxed' through poor law rates they were not liable for, kiln charges, turbary levies, shore taxes imposed by a bailiff and livestock impounding for trespass.

McArmalite

efla wrote: »

The attempted assassination of Rev. Nixon by his Donegal tenants is well documented (may have been ribbonmen, I cant remember).

Many such tenants were rackrented year to year by middlemen, particularly from the beginning of the 19th, to the latter half of the 19th century. Many were also 'taxed' through poor law rates they were not liable for, kiln charges, turbary levies, shore taxes imposed by a bailiff and livestock impounding for trespass.

I once heard that even having a chimney on your house was taxable and that even the size of the windows in the cottage were taxable, hence the reason why windows are so small on Irish cottages ? How true this is I don't know. If anyone knows ( MarchDub maybe as your pretty good on these issues ) can you post it.

qwertyphobia

Captain Boycott would be another obvious place to start. But again you need at least a general overview of irish history or even your outline will have gaping holes in it.

Just go out and pick up a book, someone suggested a leaving cert one and read the chapters around the famine and the land war. You just simply won't get an full overview online. Actually if your in Ireland just join your local libaray and borrow a book.

McArmalite

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Great, thanks guys

Of vital importance to the history of landlordism is the organisation that brought it to an end - the Irish National Land League formed in 1879 by Michael Davitt and Charles Stewart Parnell. Through its skilful use of the boycott against anyone who took a farm from which another had been evicted, pressure from Irish MP's at Westminister led by Charles Stewart Parnell and the use of intimidation from the Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB, forerunners of the IRA) it undermining the economic wealth generated by Ireland for Britain and it's parasitical landlord class. This combination of intimidation and parliamentary action is what gave the Land League success.
Here is a wiki link, I know wiki has it's faults, but this article is quite good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_Land_League

Morlar

McArmalite wrote: »

I once heard that even having a chimney on your house was taxable and that even the size of the windows in the cottage were taxable, .

I don't have a a source available but as far as I know you were taxed on the chimney and the amount of windows, I do not know if the size of windows drew more tax. If so it would explain the sizes of them in traditional Irish cottages.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

I don't have a a source available but as far as I know you were taxed on the chimney and the amount of windows, I do not know if the size of windows drew more tax. If so it would explain the sizes of them in traditional Irish cottages.

Window tax was a standard means of taxation all over the UK so it would have applied equally to Ireland. I believe this replaced the "Hearth" tax which would have applied to chimneys I guess.

If you look at a lot of old buildings, they still have bricked up windows that were bricked up to reduce the amount of tax payable.

This would have been a central tax though and not related to the landlords.

brianthebard

Lots of good advice on this thread. OP the one thing I would say is to figure out your timeline now, there'll be a huge difference between landlord/servant relations in the 16th and 18th century.

convert

Try Pauric Traver's book called Settlements and Divisions. It's basic, but more detailed than a LC book, though the latter isn't a bad place to start. There's also a Dictionary to Irish History which has been published recently and should provide you with definitions and brief insight into the vital basics. Can't remember the editors off the top of my head.

There have also been some books written about servants in the 'big house' and Toby Barnard has also written on the topic which you should find helpful, if exceptionally detailed.

The basic info on the political aspects will all be in the LC books, but if you want something a little more informative, the above suggestions should help!

And brianthebard's point is really valid: sort out your timeframe now. It's vital to your storyline, otherwise you'll run into problems down the road.

Mr Marenghi

Cool, thanks,

can I just point out that I changed the title of the thread to

-Question about Landlords with tenants during 16/17/1800's

But it doesnt seem to have updated ?????

convert

You'll find a huge difference in the landlord/tenant relationships for those centuries. For example, 1600s would have been much different than 1700s due to the Penal Laws while the 1800s would have borne the fallout from the previous century and witnessed more agitation. Tim O' Neill wrote quite a bit on landlords and tenants in the 1800s, though I don't know any titles off the top of my head.

If you're looking at the Early Modern period (1500-1800) Toby Barnard and Malcolmson should be helpful as would David Dickson. Two really good publications are New History of Ireland volumes 3 and 4- they're broad ranging, not overly detailed and really accesible.

For your ease it'd probably be better if you focused on just one century. Because they are so different and broadranging, you could find yourself bogged down in huge detail very quickly.

MarchDub

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Hi,

I'm starting work on a short script about a relationship between a protestant landlord and a catholic servant.

A few questions I need cleared up are -

*a protestant landlord would have a large estate, would he have catholic servants ?

*would he have tenants on his land ? Roughly how many ?

*would he charge these tenants rent and/or a tax ?

*the tenants were unhappy having landlords ?

*did Irish tenants revolt at any time ?


Also what years am I looking at with this ? any info I try and find I seem to get conflicting answers for all the above questions,

Any help is much appreciated,

Sean

Much of this depends on where in the country you are talking about. Although there was a Protestant ascendancy there was also a small scattering of Catholic landowners. But this would have been rare to non existent in Ulster because of the laws governing the Plantation.

In the Ulster region there was a very specific relationship between Protestant settler and Catholic workers beginning with the Plantation in the early 1600s. The information for this is contained in what is known as "The Printed Book" of 1610. It is a parliamentary document and spelled out the conditions of the relationship between those owning the land - Protestant only according to the law - and those who worked for them, the Catholic dispossessed. Catholics were forbidden to own land or even live in the same kinds of stone houses as the Protestant settlers for example. Protestant landowners were also supplied with an ample supply of guns "to be held in their homes at all times" to fend off any possible reprisals - this is all spelled out in the Printed Book.

Land taxes for the new Protestant settler class in Ulster were half that of the rest of the country - in order to facilitate this new class.

This arrangement - and the ensuring tensions - formed the basis of these Protestant/Catholic relationships for hundreds of years. The Ulster region did not improve with time - the laws of Settlement were never overturned - and so is not time related.

jiggajt

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Window tax was a standard means of taxation all over the UK so it would have applied equally to Ireland. I believe this replaced the "Hearth" tax which would have applied to chimneys I guess.

If you look at a lot of old buildings, they still have bricked up windows that were bricked up to reduce the amount of tax payable.

This would have been a central tax though and not related to the landlords.

I believe window tax is where the term "daylight robbery" was coined as tenants with bricked up windows had their daylight stolen from them

MarchDub

Actually it was our good friend King Billy - William III - who introduced the window tax in the 1690s.
He and Mary had abolished the Hearth Tax about six years previously when they first took the throne in 1889.

The window tax got replaced by the "Inhabited House Duty" tax bill of 1851. There's never an end to taxes.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1851/jul/18/inhabited-house-duty-bill

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You might want to read up on Lord Lucan. not the one who murdered his children's nanny, his grand father i believe it was. The Earl of Lucan's actions in ireland during the famine were so appalling he was singled out in westminster for criticism.

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/famine2.html this is a good place to start.

Good link there. I could feel my face flushing reading it

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

The window tax got replaced by the "Inhabited House Duty" tax bill of 1851. There's never an end to taxes.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1851/jul/18/inhabited-house-duty-bill

one of life's only two certainties.

McArmalite

MarchDub wrote: »

Much of this depends on where in the country you are talking about. Although there was a Protestant ascendancy there was also a small scattering of Catholic landowners. But this would have been rare to non existent in Ulster because of the laws governing the Plantation.

In the Ulster region there was a very specific relationship between Protestant settler and Catholic workers beginning with the Plantation in the early 1600s. The information for this is contained in what is known as "The Printed Book" of 1610. It is a parliamentary document and spelled out the conditions of the relationship between those owning the land - Protestant only according to the law - and those who worked for them, the Catholic dispossessed. Catholics were forbidden to own land or even live in the same kinds of stone houses as the Protestant settlers for example. Protestant landowners were also supplied with an ample supply of guns "to be held in their homes at all times" to fend off any possible reprisals - this is all spelled out in the Printed Book.

Land taxes for the new Protestant settler class in Ulster were half that of the rest of the country - in order to facilitate this new class.

This arrangement - and the ensuring tensions - formed the basis of these Protestant/Catholic relationships for hundreds of years. The Ulster region did not improve with time - the laws of Settlement were never overturned - and so is not time related.

Good post as usual from MarchDub. As someone once said, can you imagine the level of discrimination that existed already before it was offically enacted in law ? From reading the above, so much for the superior ' Protestant work ethic '.

" Protestant landowners were also supplied with an ample supply of guns "to be held in their homes at all times" to fend off any possible reprisals - this is all spelled out in the Printed Book. " a bit off topic but in passing, it would explain the unionist mythology of the "hardiness of the Ulster Protestants" who beat off the Papes at the so called Battle of the Diamond 1795 ( which gave rise to the formation of the ORange Order ) and Dolly's Brae in on 12 July 1849 where 30 unarmed Catholics were killed.

MarchDub or anyone, do you know anything about what was called the Ulster Custom and was given the force of law under the 1870 Irish Land Act ?

getz

Morlar wrote: »

I don't have a a source available but as far as I know you were taxed on the chimney and the amount of windows, I do not know if the size of windows drew more tax. If so it would explain the sizes of them in traditional Irish cottages.

if you look at many of the old buildings and large houses throught out the UK and IRELAND, you will find many of the old houses with bricked up windows this was a way of avoiding the tax .

TedB

There will be a huge difference in the relationship before the introduction of the penal laws (Hence making Catholic landowners poorer and scarcer) and afterwards. Daniel O'Connel had a rich uncle who owned an estate in Co. Kerry who bankrolled him for much of his life, but catholic landowners - ie, the catholic 'aristocracy' were more of a rarity. There were a few examples of priest landowners etc. but by far the majority of big landowners were Protestant.

MarchDub

McArmalite wrote: »

MarchDub or anyone, do you know anything about what was called the Ulster Custom and was given the force of law under the 1870 Irish Land Act ?

What became known as the Ulster Custom had its roots in the Plantation of Ulster in the early 1600s : 1609 - 1630. Over 40,000 "planters" came into Ulster then at the initiation of King and Parliament. The "custom" had its basis in parliamentary law. It referred to the deal that Protestant tenants had and was unlike that found anywhere else on the island. Protestant tenants coming into Ulster under the Plantation were given guarantees that did not apply to the rest of the country. For example, they had security of tenure - protection against eviction - and could sell on their holdings to another Protestant [not a Catholic] . This is again all spelled out in the parliamentary law.

One of the striking things about reading these documents of Plantation for me is the reference to the native Irish of Ulster as "mere Irish". And the "mere Irish" were not to be given any tenure to land or even - it was at first suggested - to be employed in any way. The latter turned out to be not a workable principal as servile workers were eventually needed by the Protestant settlers and the native Catholic Irish did not disappear from the region.

When the Land War broke out in the late 19th century it was about rights for the mostly Catholic tenants outside of the Ulster region. Ulster Protestant tenants already had the kinds of rights that catholic tenants did not have in the rest of Ireland. So the resolution of the Land War - the Land Act or series of Land Acts -in getting the three Fs as the rights were known as, sought also to protect Ulster from any unwanted changes.

Some posters have mentioned the Penal Laws - the Ulster region was already under a penal code before these laws in that it was the Plantation laws that shaped events there. The Penal Laws came after the Plantation period - after the Boyne. The Ulster Catholics were the first Catholics to be really dispossessed in a meaningful way. The Penal laws were to control the rest of the country from the early 1700s.

Fratton Fred

'Mere' derived from the Latin merus, meaning pure.

The Mere Irish were, therefore, the "Pure irish". Lets not sensationalise things

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

'Mere' derived from the Latin merus, meaning pure.

The Mere Irish were, therefore, the "Pure irish". Lets not sensationalise things

Latin origins aside I think it's plain what was meant by the use of the word 'mere' (in relation to 'the mere irish') and purity has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

Latin origins aside I think it's plain what was meant by the use of the word 'mere' (in relation to 'the mere irish') and purity has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

believe what you like. just try a quick google on Mere Irish and draw your own conclusions.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

believe what you like. just try a quick google on Mere Irish and draw your own conclusions.

You could be right actually - ahem. I suppose it depends on when exactly it was used really & in what context.

http://books.google.ie/books?q=&btnG=Search+Books

search for

a history of ireland peter and summerset fry

then search that book for

mere irish

p373

4. Although 'degenerate' was not originally any more derogatory than 'mere' - it simply referred to people who lives outside the culture of their race (de generis) - it soon became so.

p 343

The phrase merus hibernicus 'mere Irish' has commonly been taken as an insult. This is a misunderstanding of the medieval meaning of the word 'mere' which at that time meant 'pure' or 'only'. Later when Elizabeth I of england was crowned in 1558 she described herself to her people as 'mere english'. She would never have used the phrase in such a context if it had a derogatory meaning.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

You could be right actually - ahem. I suppose it depends on when exactly it was used really & in what context.

And that, my friend, is how wars start

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And that, my friend, is how wars start

True I suppose. Invading other peoples' countries doesn't tend to help either


/shakes fist !

MarchDub

I am aware of the discussion surrounding the word "mere" - it has become a topic especially amongst those who want to negate the word and maybe distract from the reality of what the Plantation laws actually meant to the native population. And the discussion IS nothing more than a distraction. But there is also the reality that Shakespeare uses it in our sense - of superlative and comparative value - and Milton in 1642 uses the phrase "the merest, the falsest figure, the most unfortunate gift of fortune".

Staneyhurst [who else?] uses the phrase like this - "The disposition and manners of the mere Irish, commonly called the Wild Irish".

One way or another - the articles of Plantation pertaining to the Ulster Catholic Irish [mere or otherwise] were purposely set up to establish a segregated region in which the natives would have no economic position at all. The initial plan - hope - was to drive them out but this proved to be wishful thinking on the part of the planners.

MarchDub

Found another reference to "mere Irish" used in less than complimentary way in my copy of "Ireland under Elizabeth and James I" by Edmund Spencer.

He is here describing the Norman settlers who assimilated with the native Irish...you really have to just laugh at this IMO. The "better sort" left Ireland folks! How about that for a fair and balanced view?


"Besides, the English lords, to strengthen their parties, did ally themselves with the Irish, and drew them in to dwell among them, gave their children to be fostered by them, and having no other means to pay or reward them, suffered them to take coigny and livery upon the English freeholders; which oppression was so intolerable as that the better sort were enforced to quit their freeholds and fly into England, and never returned, though many laws were made in both realms to remand them back again; and the rest which remained became degenerate and mere Irish, as is before declared."

focus_mad

*the tenants were unhappy having landlords ?

Some landlords actually did alot of good for their tenants. During the famine, a number of landlords in the West of Ireland gave their tenants food from their own country homes which was unheard of at the time.

(I don'y know if this question has already been answered!!)