Antrim relegated from McCarthy Cup?

Filan

Am I right in believing that the loosers of Antrim and Offaly will drop to the Chrsty Ring Cup next season?. Seems a bit bizarre, that Antrim having just been admitted to the Leiinster Championship will now probably not compete in the All Ireland Series next season?. Does this mean that they or Offaly would still compete in Leinster but not the qualifiers? And that Carlow or Westmeath will also compete in Leinster?.

A bit bizarre to me although Antrim having lost to Laois are obviously awful......

Orizio

Antrim going backwards, the likes of Westmeath will give as good a go in Leinster next year.

yahoo_moe

Orizio wrote: »

Antrim going backwards, the likes of Westmeath will give as good a go in Leinster next year.

Which is why they should never have been in Leinster this year ahead of Westmeath. I said at the time that Antrim weren't as far ahead of the rest of Ulster as a lot of people seemed to think - they were run very close by Down in the final this year and have lost to Dublin and Laois now too.

K-9

Seems to be problems in the camp. The policy seems to have been to stick largely with a decent minor team from a couple of years ago.

Antrim need to wonder why Waterford, Clare and Dublin have moved on from the late 80's and early 90's and if anything, they have gone back. Not sure if being in the Leinster Senior does them any good, but they need to be in the minor and U-21 Leinster Championship, for their own good.

Flukey

The McCarthy Cup should most definitely be limited... to 32 counties. It is a disgrace that Antrim or Offaly should be omitted from competing for the McCarthy Cup next year. Galway and Antrim can play in the McCarthy Cup and Leinster Championship and yet we could have the scenario next year where Offaly could be excluded. It is scandalous.

Pride Fighter

The losers of Antrim/Offaly are not relegated. They could be, as they play the ring cup winners in the relegation play-off. So Down and Carlow are in the Ring final, the winner plays the loser of Antrim/Offaly.

delta_bravo

Can anyone explain the exact criteria that would cause a team to be relegated from the mccarthy cup? I cant see the overall value of demoting any team

K-9

delta_bravo wrote: »

Can anyone explain the exact criteria that would cause a team to be relegated from the mccarthy cup? I cant see the overall value of demoting any team

Suppose it's to keep a competitive level at the lower level and also the Christy Ring. It makes the Antrim Offaly match matter as well the Christy Ring Final. It isn't just about the cup.

Can see no reason why Down and Carlow aren't treated the same as Antrim and Offaly.

Orizio

K-9 wrote: »

Suppose it's to keep a competitive level at the lower level and also the Christy Ring. It makes the Antrim Offaly match matter as well the Christy Ring Final. It isn't just about the cup.

Can see no reason why Down and Carlow aren't treated the same as Antrim and Offaly.

Offaly are a lot better, and have done a lot more recently, then those three, for a start.

K-9

Orizio wrote: »

Offaly are a lot better, and have done a lot more recently, then those three, for a start.

Yes, no argument there. The problem was more the Leinster draw in that regard.

Galway and Kilkenny should have been seeded. After that Dublin, Offaly and Wexford are at a higher level to the rest. How you cater for that in a draw is another matter.

Stevecw

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The losers of Antrim/Offaly are not relegated. They could be, as they play the ring cup winners in the relegation play-off. So Down and Carlow are in the Ring final, the winner plays the loser of Antrim/Offaly.

The rule was changed there recently and the play off won't be happening anymore.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaa-championships/hurling/ring-shocker-for-hurling-relegation-losers-1777575.html

Carlow and Down are playing Christy Ring final next Saturday and the winner will be in the McCarthy Cup next year.
Losers of the Antrim/Offaly game will be in Christy Ring.

Its only fair, especially if Carlow win Christy Ring again for the 2nd year in a row.
Its most likely that Antrim will lose relegation game to Offaly.
So its a fair swap as Carlow also beat Antrim in the league this year.

Pride Fighter

Stevecw wrote: »

The rule was changed there recently and the play off won't be happening anymore.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaa-championships/hurling/ring-shocker-for-hurling-relegation-losers-1777575.html

Carlow and Down are playing Christy Ring final next Saturday and the winner will be in the McCarthy Cup next year.
Losers of the Antrim/Offaly game will be in Christy Ring.

Its only fair, especially if Carlow win Christy Ring again for the 2nd year in a row.
Its most likely that Antrim will lose relegation game to Offaly.
So its a fair swap as Carlow also beat Antrim in the league this year.

Its not fair. Carlow being robbed of a place last year was not fair either. But whoever wins the Christy Ring should be in the All Ireland the next year. They should do this while relegating no-one. If Antrim are relegated, they should boycott all matches next year, refuse to play in the league and Christy Ring. They dont deserve to be treated like garbage, same with all the other counties that are forced to being relegated.

AMixedBag

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Its not fair. Carlow being robbed of a place last year was not fair either. But whoever wins the Christy Ring should be in the All Ireland the next year. They should do this while relegating no-one. If Antrim are relegated, they should boycott all matches next year, refuse to play in the league and Christy Ring. They dont deserve to be treated like garbage, same with all the other counties that are forced to being relegated.

strike, maybe?
And yes, i agree with you. But I also dont understand why all the counties in ireland cant participate in the liam mc cup? Like the football. Ok, maybe some teams wouldnt have a hope in hell of winning it but sure some football teams in the sam dont have a hope either. And more matches could be played as well ..

Think of it this way. Is it really an all-ireland final if every county in ireland doesnt participate?

Stevecw

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Its not fair. Carlow being robbed of a place last year was not fair either. But whoever wins the Christy Ring should be in the All Ireland the next year. They should do this while relegating no-one. If Antrim are relegated, they should boycott all matches next year, refuse to play in the league and Christy Ring. They dont deserve to be treated like garbage, same with all the other counties that are forced to being relegated.

I see what you are saying, as yes there probably should be room for Antrim along with whoever is promoted for next year.
But where does this end..if nobody ever gets relegated, and the CR teams keep getting promoted, within 3 or 4 years there will be some very poor sides in the Liam McCarthy and that wouldn't be right either.

I think the 4 tiers system works well. And if there is no relegation then this will mess that up.

Its not an easy one to sort out, as no matter what they do there will be unhappy teams.

conf101

The relegation play off isn't between Offaly and Antrim, there is an open draw between Offaly, Antrim and the losers of Wexford/Limerick & Galway/Clare to sort out the relegation. 2 matches (repeat pairings to be avoided) and the losers play the relegation play off.

http://www.gaa.ie/page/gaa_hurling_senior_championship_2009.html

Pride Fighter

conf101 wrote: »

The relegation play off isn't between Offaly and Antrim, there is an open draw between Offaly, Antrim and the losers of Wexford/Limerick & Galway/Clare to sort out the relegation. 2 matches (repeat pairings to be avoided) and the losers play the relegation play off.

http://www.gaa.ie/page/gaa_hurling_senior_championship_2009.html

I hope a Munster county gets relegated. Not that I have anything against Munster counties, but because people always harp on about Munster Championship being so strong. If Clare were relegated, their Munster neighbours would use all their weight to keep them in, and I think they would keep them in. That way Carlow/Down will be up as well as the current counties. What happens if Down are promoted? Will they be in the Leinster Championship like Antrim and Galway?? Either way, hurling is a mess organisationally.

Orizio

Personally, I hope the best teams stay in the top-tier competition, the medicore teams stay in the middle tier competition and the weakest teams stay in the lowest tier competition.

buck65

Can you really see Clare losing to Antrim?

Orizio

buck65 wrote: »

Can you really see Clare losing to Antrim?

I think he is just trying to prove some 'point'.

AMixedBag

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I hope a Munster county gets relegated. Not that I have anything against Munster counties, but because people always harp on about Munster Championship being so strong. If Clare were relegated, their Munster neighbours would use all their weight to keep them in, and I think they would keep them in. That way Carlow/Down will be up as well as the current counties. What happens if Down are promoted? Will they be in the Leinster Championship like Antrim and Galway?? Either way, hurling is a mess organisationally.

are you serious? A munster county getting relegated would imo upset the munster provincial stages altogether. And munster produces the best games at the moment. Being realistic do you think the likes of clare deserve to be replaced by... Down? I dont think so...

Pride Fighter

AMixedBag wrote: »

are you serious? A munster county getting relegated would imo upset the munster provincial stages altogether. And munster produces the best games at the moment. Being realistic do you think the likes of clare deserve to be replaced by... Down? I dont think so...

I agree, but as Munster is so strong they will protest against one of their counties being axed from the championship and they will successfully get them back in. There should be 14 counties in the Liam McCarthy, maybe 15. Down, Carlow and Westmeath have proven they can compete with the Laois's and Antrim's, but they would be given hidings by everyone else.

AMixedBag

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I agree, but as Munster is so strong they will protest against one of their counties being axed from the championship and they will successfully get them back in. There should be 14 counties in the Liam McCarthy, maybe 15. Down, Carlow and Westmeath have proven they can compete with the Laois's and Antrim's, but they would be given hidings by everyone else.

yeah they can compete with the likes of antrim and laois but I think thats the furthest their competitive edge would go. Antrim should be relegated if they cant prove that they deserve to stay at the top. No exceptions should be made. I dont even know why antrim were told that they could stay up in the top tier for 3 years without relegation. Ridiculous stuff altogether. The GAA seem to be getting worse each year.

Pride Fighter

AMixedBag wrote: »

yeah they can compete with the likes of antrim and laois but I think thats the furthest their competitive edge would go. Antrim should be relegated if they cant prove that they deserve to stay at the top. No exceptions should be made. I dont even know why antrim were told that they could stay up in the top tier for 3 years without relegation. Ridiculous stuff altogether. The GAA seem to be getting worse each year.

Organisationally hurling is a mess. They should allow all counties compete for the AI IMO. But continue tiered hurling once they are eliminated. So a county with good hurling traditions but in the Christy Ring if they get a good run can gun for the Liam McCarthy cup, if not they get knocked out and compete for the Ring Cup again. Westmeath beat Dublin not too long ago. The same year the gave a good display against Kilkenny and lost by 14 points. Down were a division 1 hurling side for 2 or 3 years in a row recently. They also ran Antrim close in Ulster this year. Carlow has hurlers as good as Wexford and Kilkenny hurlers at club level, their problem is getting them to play for the county. The possibility of having a crack at Leinster could give them the incentive to play for their county. But no. Hurling is a mess and it always will be.

Flukey

No one should be relegated or promoted. It should be up to the teams themselves as to which cup they play for. If Carlow win the Christy Ring Cup, they should have the choice of defending their title next year or going into the McCarthy Cup. What if they feel that they are not yet good enough to compete for the McCarthy Cup and would benefit by staying in the Ring Cup for another year? That might be better than them going up this year and straight back down next year. That won't do their confidence any good.

All the teams should have the choice, including as to which of their own provinces they should play in. So next year, Antrim should have the choice of whether to play in the Ulster Championship, the Ulster Championship or the Ulster Championship. Putting them into Leinster this year achieved nothing. They played and lost one Leinster Championship match, as indeed did Galway, and against opposition they could just have easily have met in the system they were in. Ironically, after being knocked out of the Leinster Championship, Antrim ended up playing Laois.

Galway played Laois and now have ended up playing Clare, both of which they've done in recent years too, under the old system. So nothing has changed. Put them back into the Connacht Championship and deal with the real issue which is the problem with Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and Leitrim. Galway are the only county in Connacht that don't need anything done for them and yet they are treated as the problem. It is crazy. Is it any wonder that Hurling has the problems it has when the GAA continues to try and fix things that aren't broken, and ignore the things that are broken, with the exception of when they try to smash them even more?

Daysha

Flukey wrote: »

All the teams should have the choice, including as to which of their own provinces they should play in. So next year, Antrim should have the choice of whether to play in the Ulster Championship, the Ulster Championship or the Ulster Championship. Putting them into Leinster this year achieved nothing. They played and lost one Leinster Championship match, as indeed did Galway, and against opposition they could just have easily have met in the system they were in. Ironically, after being knocked out of the Leinster Championship, Antrim ended up playing Laois.

I'm not a huge fan of the current system either Flukey, but surely from Antrims point of view, their 09 Championship compares much more favourable to 2008. This year they had two well-contested, competitive matches against Dublin and Laois, and continued to play their role in Ulster. Last year they were practically hockeyed off the field by Galway and Waterford by 20+ points and that was that. Bang, bang, done. Another year over.

As bizarre as it is to see Antrim in Leinster, surely you must be able to see why it can actually help Antrim in the long run.

Imposter

All this messing with Ulster and Connaught teams in Leinster, back door systems and lord knows what other rubbish.

Time to call a spade a spade and run the championships on a League basis for a few games both in football and hurling. Seed the teams if you wish but the likes of Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath etc should get a go at the McCarthy Cup. Ok if they get relegated they get relegated but these teams will only improve by playing decent opposition in summer hurling.

Make it 16 teams 4 groups of 4, leading to quarter finals for the Liam McCarthy and the other whatever number of counties in another competition in a similar format with promotion and relegation.


Play the provincials totally seperately early in the year and scrap (or reorganise) the league if need be.

Orizio

The system is fine imo, its the strength of Kilkenny that is the 'problem'.

Antrim have no reason to complain, they lost repeatedly in the championship this year and will no pay the price for not being good enough. Their whining is every bit as bad as Clare's bull**** at the end of the league.

Parser

http://www.hoganstand.com/Hurling/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=114449

Antrim chairman Dr John McSparran wrote:

"Some of the motions that were passed seem to be contradictory but, as far as we're concerned, we're in Leinster and the McCarthy Cup for three years," McSparran said.

"Besides, I don't see how it benefits anybody to drop down a tier. We're all trying to promote the game and the best way of doing that is to play it at the highest level.

This kind of thinking is ridiculous. The Clare manager earlier this year claimed he would not field a full strength team next year in division two after being relegated this year.

If a team repeatedly loses and finishes bottom of a league / loses a relation play-off, then why do they still feel the right to belong in the top flight?

Similarly, if a team wins the tier two league / cup, why do they not deserve the chance to have a go at the top tier?

Maybe the Christy Ring could be run a few weeks earlier and the winner then goes straight into the Liam McCarthy in the same year. Maybe thrown into the qualifiers at some stage. Possibly shorten the Christy Ring so the winning team aren't totally burnt out by the end of it, but will have a solid campaign behind them which would be beneficial when playing teams in the qualifiers.

soccymonster

Antrim relegated from the mccarthy cup? When did this happen coz this is news to me. Realistically, dont they still have 2 more relegation matches to play against offaly and the loser of phase 2. Or is that how the relegation is working?

K-9

soccymonster wrote: »

Antrim relegated from the mccarthy cup? When did this happen coz this is news to me. Realistically, dont they still have 2 more relegation matches to play against offaly and the loser of phase 2. Or is that how the relegation is working?

Think so.

Antrim are in a kind of unique situation in that an Ulster championship, barring an odd scare from Down, isn't much help to them. Neither is the Christy Ring.

conf101

Why does everyone have problems with the idea of relegation/promotion?? Isn't that the way all major sport works? If you're the worst team in the top tier in any given year you get relegated and if you're the best team in a lower tier you get promoted! That's the way sport works folks!

Pride Fighter

conf101 wrote: »

Why does everyone have problems with the idea of relegation/promotion?? Isn't that the way all major sport works? If you're the worst team in the top tier in any given year you get relegated and if you're the best team in a lower tier you get promoted! That's the way sport works folks!

Teams dont get relegated from the FA cup for doing rubbish. So no, it is not the way major sport works. The Championship is a knockout cup competition, not the premier league.

K-9

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Teams dont get relegated from the FA cup for doing rubbish. So no, it is not the way major sport works. The Championship is a knockout cup competition, not the premier league.

The GAA wants to promote counties like Antrim and try and improve their standards and also keep the game alive and well there. The success of their footballers this year may actually cause problems for hurling. It isn't all about the top 4 and TV Revenue in hurling.

Parser

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Teams dont get relegated from the FA cup for doing rubbish. So no, it is not the way major sport works. The Championship is a knockout cup competition, not the premier league.

Aha, but all teams 8-9 divisions down can enter the FA cup.

Once you tier a competition, whether it be a league or cup competition, you must allow teams to be promoted and "punish" other teams with relegation.

Otherwise there is no point. There is little motivation to win your tier and there is no consequence for playing poorly all year.

One thing is for certain, the relegation play-off will be one hell of a match, there is a lot at stake.

LeoB

The timing of the competitions need to be looked at. There should I.M.O be regelation and promotion in the same year With Rackard cup winners going into Ring Cup Ring Cup into McCarthy cup.

However I wonder if some counties are happy to play in the lower competitions just to have a chance of success. Maybe a McCarthy plate should run along side the real thing for teams that lose with the final on day before the A.I final or go to open draw where teams like Westmeath, Carlow,Meath, Down, Derry or Antrim will play from round 1 and win the right to play the play the big boys. Anyone knocked out before Rd 3 will play in Christy Ring cup anyone knocked out in Rd 1 will Play Rackard Cup.

Pride Fighter

Parser wrote: »

Aha, but all teams 8-9 divisions down can enter the FA cup.

Once you tier a competition, whether it be a league or cup competition, you must allow teams to be promoted and "punish" other teams with relegation.

Otherwise there is no point. There is little motivation to win your tier and there is no consequence for playing poorly all year.

One thing is for certain, the relegation play-off will be one hell of a match, there is a lot at stake.

The FA cup is tiered as well. There is the FA vase teams can enter from the lower divisions, teams can enter both competitions.

Parser

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The FA cup is tiered as well. There is the FA vase teams can enter from the lower divisions, teams can enter both competitions.

Yeah teams of similar size or smaller than club sides here.

The main stipulation to enter the FA Cup is that your ground has flood lights. The FA Cup may be tiered but as you said if you have played in any of the tiers the previous year you can enter the FA Cup the following year if you wish.

Spiritoftheseventies

Surely all they had to tell Antrim was that going to leinster for three years was dependent on them winning a game or two in Liam Mac Carthy.

mccy02

I have no interest in soccer or the FA cup, or how they run their competitions.

However if we look at the other major GAA sport - Gaelic Football where 33 teams enter every year - of very different standards (the 32 minus kilkenny plus london and new york). They play provincial championships and once beaten initially fo into the back door system which is for the main part open draw.

Why can't the GAA run the hurling in exactly the same way?

I realise that the gap in hurling between the top and bottom may be greater than the gap in football, but it won't get any narrower by putting them into a second rate competition.

Take the run the Wexford footballers had last year, no one would ever on paper have expected Wexford to beat Armagh, but they did. Letting (eg) the Mayo hurlers play against the (eg) Wexford/Offaly/Dublin hurlers (all beaten in championship this year) could only be good for Mayo hurling.

Why are we trying to advance hurling by excluding counties?

Daysha

mccy02 wrote: »

I have no interest in soccer or the FA cup, or how they run their competitions.

However if we look at the other major GAA sport - Gaelic Football where 33 teams enter every year - of very different standards (the 32 minus kilkenny plus london and new york). They play provincial championships and once beaten initially fo into the back door system which is for the main part open draw.

Why can't the GAA run the hurling in exactly the same way?

I realise that the gap in hurling between the top and bottom may be greater than the gap in football, but it won't get any narrower by putting them into a second rate competition.

Why are we trying to advance hurling by excluding counties?

Because the gap is too big to implement. I can see where you're coming from, but imagine if Kilkenny were drawn against Louth in the 1st round of the Leinster hurling C'ship. Kilkenny would probably put a C team out and still walk all over them by 20+ plus. How would matches like that benefit either county?

Pride Fighter

Daysha wrote: »

Because the gap is too big to implement. I can see where you're coming from, but imagine if Kilkenny were drawn against Louth in the 1st round of the Leinster hurling C'ship. Kilkenny would probably put a C team out and still walk all over them by 20+ plus. How would matches like that benefit either county?

That is the unfortunate reality. I agree with the guy you quoted but only 4 years ago Antrim beat Roscommon in the Ring cup by over 60 points. Imagine what Kilkenny would do.

mccy02

I agree and disagree. I agree that kilkenny would make mice meat of the weaker counties, but these things could happen in football too. Kerry played Longford in this years back door and everyone expected a good beating and there was feck all in it in the end. A few years ago who would have seen antrim in an ulster football final, and only lose by 6 pts to the current all ireland champions.

Imagine what tyrone would do to westmeath at the moment.

Kilkennyhave set a standard that I personally think has never been reached before. I think that maybe the next group down maybe are the norm. Kilkenny certainly in the leinster final seem to be coming back down from their heights a little bit anyway.

On another note, did you hear the new relegation set up, whoever loses the relegation final, wexford or antrim, will then play carlow with the loser dropping to the christy ring, unless it's carlow as they are guaranteed promotion. The GAA have mad a show of them selves on this one. Should you wish to voice your opinion on this matter:
queries@gaa.ie