Mini bus and seat belts.

Odysseus

I noticed this whilst in town a few hours ago, and because it was a Garda van it go me thinking. Anyway what the law on passengers in mini buses and selt belts?

I noticed a community relations van full of OAPs being transported by and not one of them had a seat-belt on. As I post here semi-regularly people should know that I'm not posting this with an anti-garda sentiment, it was the fact that it was a garda van that make it stick out to me in the first place and got me thinking.

trad

Anything to do with traffic law the gardai are exempt, seatbelts, dot, nct, insurance, speed limits, driving licence, parking etc.

This is unfortunatly why a lot of gardai think that the law in general does not apply to them. They are constantly told that the law that affects most of us in our daily lives does not apply to them. It's not a quantum leap to assume all law doesn't apply to them (speaking as an ex garda).

Greenmachine

trad wrote: »

Anything to do with traffic law the gardai are exempt, seatbelts, dot, nct, insurance, speed limits, driving licence, parking etc.

This is unfortunatly why a lot of gardai think that the law in general does not apply to them. They are constantly told that the law that affects most of us in our daily lives does not apply to them. It's not a quantum leap to assume all law doesn't apply to them (speaking as an ex garda).

As an ex Garda can you expalin why Garda are infact allowed to break speed limits when they don't have their lights on. I'm all for protecting and serving and needing to get to the scene quickly, but if they are just going from A to B how is this justified. Bearing in mind that someone going say 100 in an 80 zone is crucified as some kind of Demon.

DubMedic

Greenmachine wrote: »

As an ex Garda can you expalin why Garda are infact allowed to break speed limits when they don't have their lights on. I'm all for protecting and serving and needing to get to the scene quickly, but if they are just going from A to B how is this justified. Bearing in mind that someone going say 100 in an 80 zone is crucified as some kind of Demon.

That's for another thread, this one is about seatbelts being used in minibuses.

Stay on topic and we might just get an interesting discussion going here instead of the usual ranting and OT some threads can produce.

.

maglite

trad wrote: »

Anything to do with traffic law the gardai are exempt,

Linky to legislation?

Odysseus

DubMedic wrote: »

That's for another thread, this one is about seatbelts being used in minibuses.

Stay on topic and we might just get an interesting discussion going here instead of the usual ranting and OT some threads can produce.

.

He asked a fair question in relation to the post he quoted, well IMO its fair enough as long as its not an anti-garda rant. There are mods here for a reason let them do their job.

TheNog

Everyone so far has missed the actual question which was about OAPs not wearing seatbelts in a Garda van

Odysseus wrote: »

I noticed a community relations van full of OAPs being transported by and not one of them had a seat-belt on.

TBH everyone should be wearing their seatbelts even if they are in a Garda van or not. The only reason I can think of is people who certified by a doctor do not have to wear a seatbelt for medical reasons.

If there is no medical reason why they cannot wear a seatbelt then they should be all belted up.

Odysseus

TheNog wrote: »

Everyone so far has missed the actual question which was about OAPs not wearing seatbelts in a Garda van



TBH everyone should be wearing their seatbelts even if they are in a Garda van or not. The only reason I can think of is people who certified by a doctor do not have to wear a seatbelt for medical reasons.

If there is no medical reason why they cannot wear a seatbelt then they should be all belted up.

Cheers thanks for that. TBH I only noticed it as it was a Garda van and thereby attrached my attention. However, I thought my initial
assumption that they should have been wearing them was correct, but just wanted to check. It would be a PR disaster as well as a tradgey if things went wrong with a van full of OAPs.

Odysseus

Odysseus wrote: »

Cheers thanks for that. TBH I only noticed it as it was a Garda van and thereby attrached my attention. However, I thought my initial
assumption that they should have been wearing them was correct, but just wanted to check. It would be a PR disaster as well as a tradgey if things went wrong with a van full of OAPs.

Not trying to be smart, but how do you know that the passengers were not wearing seatbelts? Do the transit personnel carriers that are used not just have the single restraint rather than the three point seat belt?

Odysseus

foreign wrote: »

Not trying to be smart, but how do you know that the passengers were not wearing seatbelts? Do the transit personnel carriers that are used not just have the single restraint rather than the three point seat belt?

I was lurking about ten feet away having a somke, it attrached my attention because I thought it was a positive PR event. There where two passengers in the front and I can't be 100% but 99% sure there was a standard belt there. Then looking in at the back I could notice there was over the shoulder belts, especially within view of the last two or three windows. Here I'm 100% sure they where undone.

Maybe up the top part of the back of the bus [if that makes sense] they are across the waist type, but defo not the case on the last few seats as I have a clear view of these.

Odysseus

Odysseus wrote: »

I was lurking about ten feet away having a somke, it attrached my attention because I thought it was a positive PR event. There where two passengers in the front and I can't be 100% but 99% sure there was a standard belt there. Then looking in at the back I could notice there was over the shoulder belts, especially within view of the last two or three windows. Here I'm 100% sure they where undone.

Maybe up the top part of the back of the bus [if that makes sense] they are across the waist type, but defo not the case on the last few seats as I have a clear view of these.

Cheers. I wasn't doubting you. I've only been in these vans once and couldn't remember what type they have.

Odysseus

foreign wrote: »

Cheers. I wasn't doubting you. I've only been in these vans once and couldn't remember what type they have.

No probs, and to be fair you guys would know your vans better than me. But deffo noticed it at the very back.

trad

S.I. 240 of 2006 is the most up to date regulations for seatbelts I can find.

A Transit minibus is classified as category M2. Wearing of seatbelt is required only if fitted to the vehicle.

Section 11 (e) exempts members of an Garda Siochana from wearing seatbelts in such a vehicle.

Quite where that puts the passengers is not abundantly clear as the vehicle is not covered by a certificate of insurance, the drivers civilian drivers licence may not reflect his ability to drive a minibus, the vehicle has not undergone a DOT roadworthyness test and it is not licenced as a large public service vehicle.
I'll let you make up your own mind.

Hooch

trad wrote: »

Quite where that puts the passengers is not abundantly clear as the vehicle is not covered by a certificate of insurance, the drivers civilian drivers licence may not reflect his ability to drive a minibus, the vehicle has not undergone a DOT roadworthyness test and it is not licenced as a large public service vehicle.
I'll let you make up your own mind.

So an ex member hey??

If so you would know that all state vehicles are covered by state insurance as are all passengers who are legally allowed to be in the vehicles (whether by own will, ie OAP or by force ie. arrested)

Drivers of offical Garda vehicles must complete the vehicles driving course for the catagory they drive, ie a week for the D1 mini bus licence which a certificate of competency can be issued if requested for the members civilian licence, but due to the exemptions, it does not have to be on your civilian licence.
All garda vehicles are services regularly, but are exempt NCT for a car or in the case of another vehicle the CRW etc

All Garda Vehicles are considered PSVs. Hense by after an RTC the local PSV officer reviews the vehicle.

You must of course have retired before the 1961 Act came into force......otherwise as an ex garda you would know all this

Hooch

Greenmachine wrote: »

As a Garda can you expalin why Garda are infact allowed to break speed limits when they don't have their lights on. I'm all for protecting and serving and needing to get to the scene quickly, but if they are just going from A to B how is this justified. Bearing in mind that someone going say 100 in an 80 zone is crucified as some kind of Demon.

Not all situations warrant using blue lights and sirens, bear in mind we like to catch the occasional buglar etc in the act without a long drawn out chase.

Also blue lights make some drivers do the silliest, stupidest things you could imagine. Only for it being emergency calls, I know that if I could stop every driver that drove dangerously when they saw our blues, I would be arresting at least two a week for dangerous driving.

Doing 100 in an 80 zone is illegal. A garda doing it is not....dont be jealous:D

trad

Nice guy, the Garda fleet is covered by a certificate of EXEMPTION not INSURANCE. there is a difference look up the definition.

You agree with me on the point that the drivers civilian licence may not reflect minibus driving.

I'm interested in your assumption that Garda vehicles are considered PSV's. The PSVI inspectors are involved in RTA's because all accidents involving state owned vehicles are must be invetsigated. Check the definition of a large PSV. They have been around long before the Forensic Accident Investigators came along and are required to report on the mechanical condition of the vehicle.

If you were a traffic cop you'd know this.

trad

Back on topic, would any serving member care to give their expert opinion as to the requirement for civilians to wear seatbelts in a Garda minibus, seeing as you are the one's charged with enforcing the Road Traffic Act.

Shield

trad wrote: »

If you were a traffic cop you'd know this.

trad wrote: »

...seeing as you are the one's charged with enforcing the Road Traffic Act.

...and you're a former Garda? Speaking to serving members like that? A bit bullish no?

trad

psni wrote: »

...and you're a former Garda? Speaking to serving members like that? A bit bullish no?

Not in the least. It is a straightforward question that I'm sure any serving member would be asked either in court or in the course of their daily duties.

I've quoted the regulations and I'm giving a serving member the opportunity to state that if seatbelts are fitted the passengers must wear them, that is my reading of the regulations. The regulations may be different in the United Kingdom.

Living life in the real world outside of the emergency services can give you a different perspective on life and rules and regulations. I was often given the "official" line on new regulations only to discover when I actually read the legislation in context it was often open to interpetation, or possibly not quite as the "official" line would have it. Is it the same in the PSNI?

Shield

trad wrote: »

Not in the least. It is a straightforward question that I'm sure any serving member would be asked either in court or in the course of their daily duties.

I've quoted the regulations and I'm giving a serving member the opportunity to state that if seatbelts are fitted the passengers must wear them, that is my reading of the regulations. The regulations may be different in the United Kingdom.

Living life in the real world outside of the emergency services can give you a different perspective on life and rules and regulations. I was often given the "official" line on new regulations only to discover when I actually read the legislation in context it was often open to interpetation, or possibly not quite as the "official" line would have it. Is it the same in the PSNI?

Forget all that for a sec if you will.

Take a look at the 2 lines I quoted from your last 2 posts. Since they add nothing to the points you made in the respective posts, they could be taken as being somewhat antagonistic. I'm just taken aback that you, as a self-declared ex-Garda, would choose to add comments like that to your posts, and even moreso that they are directed at serving members.

When you add stuff like that at the end of posts, surely you'd agree that the tone of the post changes dramatically than the tone it might have otherwise had?

trad

Perhaps you should look at the contributions by "nice guy always" who questions my knowledge of the law by saying I must have left the force before 1961 RTA was introduced.

He then goes on to make a smart quip that the public should not being jealous of gardai doing 100 in an 80 zone. Comment regarding gardai speeding coming from a "serving member" do nothing to enhance the public image of gardai or other emergency services. There are many legitimate reasons for exceeding the speed limit, making the public jealous is not one of them.

Having been brought off topic does PSNI agree with my interpetation of the regulations regarding seatbelts in the Republic?

Shield

trad wrote: »

does PSNI agree with my interpetation of the regulations regarding seatbelts in the Republic?

We enforce the legislation in the manner in which it's taught in the college. If addional legislation is introduced, amended, or a precedent has been set by a stated case, then that is filtered down to us through the normal channels.

As far as not wearing a seat belt goes, well that's stated in the primary legislation of The Road Traffic (Seat Belts) (Northern Ireland) Order 1982 (amended in 1983 and 1991 for adults and children), so our legislation might be a bit different than yours.

But if you want to get down to the nitty gritty of it... what does "wearing" mean? What does "driving" mean? That's not something anyone I know in the job would have time to get involved in.

If we think an offence has been committed, we issue the FPN and let them argue their case in front of a magistrate if they so wish, or just accept the points and fine as usually is the case.

I think I've answered your question?

Mod hat on:

To nice guy always: trad has a point. There was just a hint of cynicism in the last line of your post at 00:30, so I will ask you too to keep it as respectful as possible. You're a good poster around here, and we're all on the same side, retired or not.