home automation

mazthespark

planning on designing my own home automation system for my home. have the general idea of how its goin to operate and wat its goin to control. any one any ideas of wat i should incorporate etc. lookin for a possible way for a wireless touch screen controller for it if any one has ever heard of such a thing. any help would be great. any one ever tried this before?

knx

Hi Maz,
Need a little more information. What control system are you gonna install and what will you be controlling with it. What level of control do you require with the touch screen.

mazthespark

planning on using a combination of a plc and relays(for larger loads) generally lights heating ability to turn off all lights in house as leaving etc the plan was to mount this main screen (possibly a hmi) at the front door so u have complete control from there as u enter and then maybe a set of buttons as u enter each room to control the parts relative to that. the majority of it was to used for lighting control so dependin on which button u select a different selection of lights came on eg. b1 - all lights b2 - wal llights b3 wall lights and b4 all off. what the system will do isnt a problem as im an electrician its more so how i will control it touch sceen keypad etc. mite sound all a bit ambitous but i dont think its impossible

knx

It certainly isn't impossible. If your goin down the plc route I reckon you need some kind of BMS software running on a permanently connected PC. Afterall you do need to be able to create GUIs that can be directly linked to your various outputs and inputs. It's a long time since I had anything to do with PLCs so can't offer any suggestions. I assume you've got experience with them yourself. The upshot of all this would be that wireless control could be done with a PDA or tablet PC. Remote access also possible. Sounds like a cool little project. Keep us updated please..

steifanc

i doing something like that , i used a cross between software "labview and lookout" built my gui s with the software . then interfaced them with a dsc module/global variables to a gui in my main rooms. interfaced with a modbus driver via a plc.
taught process is
user-gui-labview-plc-relay/load handler.

system works well , i control , door locks(biometric readers) , alarm system , cctv , heating system, water pumps , solar collectors , central piped music system ,

still working on piping media from a central location, having problems with storage , im using a raid set up. i havnt figured out if the drives are too slow or my processers are too slow.

labview can be found at
www.ni.com

mazthespark

have the experience i gained while in college doin them. had never thought of connecting it into a pc for control would probably offer a lot more possibilities to the system. was just goin to have a set of buttons wall mounted for local control but a tablet or pda would make it more acessible
any ideas where i would go for software to control?

mazthespark

sounds like u certainly know your stuff steifanc. i get the idea but not how u put it into practice. sounds like u need a lot of software programming?? where i do know how 2 use a computer quite well i wouldnt be so good at writing software im afraid. would it be difficult could prob get my head around it. know a lot more about the electrical side of it bein an electrican. this is where my difficulty lies

knx

My last experince with actually programming PLCs was also in college/Fas. For me this was 16 years ago so the PLCs we were using would have been during the Commodore 64 era. If you know what i mean. I'm using a piece of software called Facility Pilot from a company called JUNG for my own house but it is designed for KNX bus systems. Have heard of it used for other applications but would not know enough about this to tell you how. Having a look at Steifnacs solution here at the moment. National Instruments is a name I have not heard for a long time. They used to have a unit in Clonsaugh ind park, maybe they still do. Did a job there years ago when worked for an Electrical Contractor based in Dublin.

mazthespark

mine was more recent using mitsubishis were using hand controller and some laptop programming. did have a look at his solution but did seem a bit confusing and possibly pricey. for heating control for example i could have a stat that when the temp dropped below 18 degrees say that the heating would come on or i could also over ride this from my gui etc. would i need all there gear to do this or would a standard room stat suffice??

knx

Labview seems easy enough to get basic functionality up and running. Very similar to whar I'm using. It's something you could be messing with forever though I'd say. Which isn't a bad thing and the only way to really gain an understanding of it. I saw something about training courses as well. Which version are you running steif? Maz I reckon the very fact that you have dreamed up this little project means you could get your head around it eventually. However in the meantime google google google. There are loads of softwares out there for what you wanna do. Mcontrol is one that has recently been brought to my attention. Can't remember the website but again google. Also it's cheap compared to labview. Couple of hundred I think. I've downloaded a trial version with a view to controlling a knx installation but I'm sure plugins are available for PLC control. Get your system wired and running and then look at implementing remote control over it. Do you know what i mean.

mazthespark

ya google got a right roastin in the last while starting to get into it but now i know wat direction to head in it has made it easier. it has been idea for years but was never sure how i would ever get it all to work until recently. just cant bring myself to giving some one thousands of euro to put in some system when i know theres a way to do it myself and probably for cheaper and that way it does exactly what i want not what they tell me it can

mazthespark

havin a look at mcontrol now. it seems like a pre made software and u just enter the commands u want it to do?does the system you use come with its own software/commands built in or is it just basically a controller and relays?

steifanc

knx wrote: »

Labview seems easy enough to get basic functionality up and running. Very similar to whar I'm using. It's something you could be messing with forever though I'd say. Which isn't a bad thing and the only way to really gain an understanding of it. I saw something about training courses as well. Which version are you running steif? Maz I reckon the very fact that you have dreamed up this little project means you could get your head around it eventually. However in the meantime google google google. There are loads of softwares out there for what you wanna do. Mcontrol is one that has recently been brought to my attention. Can't remember the website but again google. Also it's cheap compared to labview. Couple of hundred I think. I've downloaded a trial version with a view to controlling a knx installation but I'm sure plugins are available for PLC control. Get your system wired and running and then look at implementing remote control over it. Do you know what i mean.

im useing labview 8.6 with the dsc module.
there is a free download i dont know how much you can do with the free version. it is very expenctive software and only for i use the stuff i wouldnt of bought the packges just to use for home automation , i would look for a cheaper version. on the plus side i can analize data with labview not just control the flow of data like many programs only offer. once you get familliar with labview interfacing is easy . labview will deploy and address local and remote variables its self ,that in its self is worth the money and can save a days work and many boxes of panadol !!
mcontrol is probly more suited for home automation,as the dezine of the software is biased around home automation.
there iphone link up is pretty cool !!

mazthespark

ya mcontrol certainly seems a bit better suited to my needs. lab view seems if anything wasted on a simple home automation project the features seem endless. have emailed m control to see whether or not it will control a plc or needs a home automation system aswell if u get me. because i know a lot of the ones available come with software on them where a plc wouldnt

knx

It's saucy enough alright. However the facility pilot software I'm usin is fairly comparative. Again might not have bothered except I'm a knx integrator and need to know all the ins and outs of it (which i still don't). I've seen some projects that are just amazing. Even the developers are amazed with some of the things being done with it. I'm sure Labview would be similar in this respect also. On the sublect of the iphone. Is there anything this little device can't do. It's bloody brilliant. Haven't got one yet but as soon as vodafone contract runs out I'm havin one.

mazthespark

its mad what can be achieved when u start to modify whats already there. the hardest part usually its to get it started but once some oen does the hard work it seems very easy to modify it to suit. ya th iphone/ ipod touch are two great little machines . have an ipod touch myself and the stuff it can do and the software available is amazing! is knx an all in one home automation system? had a look at the website but dont seem to be able to get much information about it at all.

knx

You won't get much info from the knx website as it's just the knx organisation website. Knx is an open standard for automation systems. Not just limited to home automation but automation in general. Many companies make knx devices and as long as they are knx certified they will all talk to each other. Have a look at www.knxshop.co.uk.

mazthespark

how do u find mcontrol to work with? had a look at there site and sent them an email to see about plc control. looks like a good system to me but have a feeling it mitent work like i hope/need.

knx

I haven't done anything with it yet. Someone drew my attention to it because they have used it already to control x10 devices and said it worked very well. All I've done so far is download a trial version to look at the software and ascertained that it will control knx. It seems simple enough. I just haven't had the opportunity to apply it to a project yet. The price was what prompted me to suggest it to you. I've just had another look at the website and I reckon you should be able to use it. I will be using it for definite in the coming months and I will let you know how i get on. What stage is your house at by the way..

mazthespark

ok great sure let me know how u get on. its still in planning haha put when i start i will know everything i want in it etc and obviously the electrical side of it will get the most attention

2011

mazthespark, perhaps you should start by making out an I/O list, and from that a cable schedule. Allow for future expansion with the I/O list. Once you have a count you can look to see what PLCs will be suitable. EBay is a good place to buy cheap second hand PLCs.

There is a good free download available of Kepware OPC server and Iconics SCADA software too. They are both very user friendly and will work with almost all PLCs (Alen Bradley, Siemens, Mitsubushi, Schnider etc..)

mazthespark

looking at around 18/24 i/o depending on wat i can get to control the plc. will scada allow me just to program or have constant control over the plc? eg be able to use maybe a pda to control the plc

2011

SCADA system is a powerfull graphical interface that will allow you to control your PLC. You can switch devices on or off, change set points etc.. It can even control many PLCs and use an output from one PLC as an input for another. Below is an example of a SCADA page:

will scada allow me just to program

The SCADA system is not used to programme the PLC.

2011

eg be able to use maybe a pda to control the plc

Certianly a laptop could do this. A PDA, I am not sure TBH, but I would think so.

mazthespark

had heard of scada before on a previous job but never really knew what it was or what it was capable of. will try to find a download of it somewhere and give it a try.

steifanc

2011 wrote: »

SCADA system is a powerfull graphical interface that will allow you to control your PLC. The SCADA system is not used to programme the PLC.

scada
supervisory control and data acquisition

scada is a term used for control and the protcol of using information networks.
scada dosnt do any thing , nor is it a programme ,

mazthespark

would this be a bit more suitable to me than labview?

steifanc

mazthespark wrote: »

would this be a bit more suitable to me than labview?

that is what labview looks like .
you can make the user panel have any components you wish on it.
the way that the labview panel connects to the control function , interfaces with a plc or a modbus , and how the information is sent accross a network . all that combined can be collectively called a scada system .
scada on its own is just a term used , it dosnt do any thing

mazthespark

mite give the one that 2011 mentioned a go it seems a bit more affordable especially if i will probably only be ever doin the 1 project

Paulo1

Hi Guys, Don't know if you ever solved your controls problem but if your building a house and want a good level of control you should give serious thought to a system called Qbus home controls. Really needs to be installed when the house is being built but is totally scalable after that. you can buy add on ethernet access modules, SMS modules and just plug them in to the system. I installed it when I built and am delighted with what it can do!

mazthespark

Paulo1 wrote: »

Hi Guys, Don't know if you ever solved your controls problem but if your building a house and want a good level of control you should give serious thought to a system called Qbus home controls. Really needs to be installed when the house is being built but is totally scalable after that. you can buy add on ethernet access modules, SMS modules and just plug them in to the system. I installed it when I built and am delighted with what it can do!

had a look at that system you mentioned looks like a great system. was trying more to design my own and cut out the middle man having to come back to make changes etc to it for me all the time as is sometimes the case. and figure it will end up a lot cheaper and doin what i want it to do. was the system v. expensive to install?

mazthespark

any one ever heard of cu touch??
http://www.audon.co.uk/cutouch.html

Paulo1

Hi, The system is structured as follows: You have four different size controllers; they are sized and priced according to their output control capicity. For example the CTL16 can control up to 16 switching functions, the CTL32 can control 32 and so on. Each of the switching modules has a capability to switch 8 outputs. so if you require the ability to switch 16 different circuits, you need 2 output modules and the CTL 16. I hope this is making sense!! all you need after that is as many or as little wall switches as you require. These are really cool and can switch up to 8 devices per switch! They also have LED's which you can customise the colours of. You can also use "normal" switches but to do this you need an input module. I started off with a CTL64 controller and have built my system over the last 2 years as money allowed to incorporate an LCD controller in the kitchen, and I have also connrected all my heating valves(17 of them and 5 pumps!!) to the system at this stage. The software to program the system was available for FREE! from the qbus website, and any questions I had were answered by the Irish distributer. The CTL 32 would be more than enough for most houses and costs around €360 + the dreaded VAT. The 8 way switching modules cost around €350 + each the last time I checked. So for very small money you get huge control! You will have no trouble programming the system yourself( I had no trouble and I'm an idiot!!). I was hunting for a system for ages when I came across qbus and it worked out at a fraction of the price of any other system I could find. The only downside is it really needs to be installed during the build. The advantage of this is again cost. My electrician shaved €2000 off the wiring cost because the system was so easy to rough in.:):D No switch wires, no strappers, no intermediate switches! Sweet. The other really good thing is after living in our house for a period of time, I realised that I was switching lights from the wrong places. Everybody who builds a new house I think finds this. no expensive rewiring, just out with the laptop and changes done!

jackdoes

If you are using LabVIEW and want to add a wireless touch screen, you could easily do it with a cheap handheld PDA. Most of them now have WiFi and in you have a wirless router in your house you are good to go.

mazthespark

jackdoes wrote: »

If you are using LabVIEW and want to add a wireless touch screen, you could easily do it with a cheap handheld PDA. Most of them now have WiFi and in you have a wirless router in your house you are good to go.

dont think il go with using labview its just too pricey for one off. think iv found a way to stay away for the whole permenantly connected to a computer idea aswell

eao1

Hi Mazthespark,

Lets know what route you go and progress on your install,i'm looking at doing somthing similar.
What im aiming for is to have to control of my 2 sky boxs,multiroom music,multiroom video,lighting and heating controlled via touch screens pda and remote, I have been looking at clipsal c-bus for lighting and heating.
The load circuts are wired from dinrail units the control inputs are also wired back to the dinrail units using cat5e and can range from switches,pirs to touch screens and more check out cleverhome.com.
The software I will use to control all this you can make your own costum gui's with it too its called cqc (charmed quark systems) but with the touch screens you can get from clipsal are nice and would be great if you just want to control lighting and heating you can also add cbus multi room audio and use the touch screen for that too.
anyhow you can check out the prices of the clipsal gear here http://www.cbusdirect.co.uk/index.html and here http://www.letsautomate.com/index.cfm?&Nav=cbus

Paulo1

Hi all, I looked at cbus when deciding on a system for my house but its VERY expensive. I would advise that whatever you decide to use is avilable "off the shelf" otherwise you will have great difficulty if you ever needed to sell your home for any reason.

Mazotasan

Hi Paulo1, Can you Pm the details for the irish distributor and the main qbus website. Had a quick google there but didn't find too much. I am planning the wiring at the moment and I think this is exactly what I am after...although I could see fear in the sparkies eyes when I mentioned it! Any other advice you have on say if you were doing it again would you do anything different?

Paulo1

Hi, After your sparkie does your house he won't want to do a house any other way! The main website is www.qbus.be Use it for reference only, these guys won't sell direct! The Qbus people in Ireland are Homeconnect Ltd. (www.homeconnect.ie) I found these guys VERY helpful and they didn't try to baffle me with lingo! They Worked out a suggested list of modules required from my plans and didn't overload it either. This is really helpful because once you have this starting point its very easy to add to the system.
The only thing I would do differently is fit a larger fuseboard! I fitted a 700mm glass fronted unit but over the last two years I have been adding modules as money allowed and am now more or less out of room!!

mazthespark

theres a reason u may have saw fear in his eyes. because depending on your sparky he may have heard bad stories about it all and thinks it may cause him more hassle than its worth. being a sparky id imagine that was why. qbus seems fairly simple tho. just the programming of it all may not be so easy for him if he hasnt done one before.

Mazotasan

Cheers lads for the advice. The electrician is a friend and I will be involved in the 2nd fixing meself, his main concern was really 1st fixing. There seems to be alot of systems out there varying in cost and functionality. This Qbus I think has the right balance for us. If we bit the bullet will keep you posted!

mazthespark

being a sparky one thing i follow is if money allows pull cat 5 and power to all switches. can prob loop power if u like. mite be handy depending on devices or if u ever decide to change your setup later on

Mazotasan

Will take that onboard, working out how much I need at minute. The other thing I was told that it'd be handy to say use red cat5 going to switches and the std creamy/grey for networking...be a little easier back at main board.

mazthespark

ya its handy if u can get it but could be pricey! could just use 2 different makes of cat 5 as there all different greys neway as iv found. or label the boxes each time and the cable ends so u can id them just use masking tape on boxes and tape and marker on the cable ends or you can get number roll for them either. alternatively just pull everything in then trace them as u need them after. can pick one up for bout 50 euro just attach to one end of it and it sends a signal down the cable and you find it with the microphone at the other end. we use them all the time

rodred

hey,

some vey interesting info here. if a little mind blowing. im hoping to break ground in the next few weeks and was looking into doing a bit of automation, nothing major, just lights, tv, music, heating.
i dont have a clue about cabling or any of that but would be keen to do this with a mate that knows a bit.
any advice on where id get the basics of a simple system design? is it just a mater of running cat5 from everything i want to control?
sorry for the basic question but any info would be sound.

Thanks
Rob

mazthespark

im a sparky and have a bit of experience in the area. pm me if u have any questions etc or need somewhere to get started.

Tim M-U

dont go with a remote, can get lost under car seat ... Go with a ACT system (code), so then if you have friends over, you give em the code and they get in! .

mazthespark

sure you can have both for gate control code ,remote or even open them via text msg

Reelect

Hi Guys,
Hav a house to wire at the moment. Showed customer the q bus system and they seem keen for an automated system.
Is q bus a reliable system?
For how many years has this system been field tested?
If this company ever folds where do we go for spares?
As each device on the bus network will only communicate over q bus IT MUST BE A qbus replacement!!!
From my understanding Qbus communication is not compatible with a SCADA system.
This would be my only fear