Cycling for running

pbuckland05

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

kennyb3

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

good for your fitness base, different muscles used. but allows you to train on non running days, low impact. but is more time consuming

cfitz

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

Don't think it compares to running at all. But if you're more used to it, it might be a could idea to gradually cross over from cycling to running. Good exercise, but if you want to train for running you should do lots of running.

aero2k

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

I'm a former competitive cyclist and I switched to running about two years ago. I trained for the DCM last year and followed the First program which had 3 days running (1 long slow run, 1 tempo, 1 speed session) and 3 days cross training. I also did 2-3 days per week on the bike. My main motivation for following this program was a fear of injury, I thought the bike sessions being low-impact would be good. In hindsight, I think I didn't do enough running, and when it came to the big day I just didn't have the endurance to do that distance at that pace. Here's a quote from an email I sent to a mate:
"Here’s the real killer: I ran the first half of the marathon in average 7:03 per mile, the first 30k in 7:08 average, and the last 12.19k in 9:09 average. I think there might be a lesson in there somewhere……."
What I'm trying to say is that the bike will help your aerobic fitness and it might help avoid boredom and injury, but depending on how fast your target is, you might be better concentrating on the running.
Thanks to Tergat, I'm running 7 days a week, so far 21 days and still alive, if a little stiff..
Hope this is helpful.

aero2k

christeb

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks to Tergat, I'm running 7 days a week, so far 21 days and still alive, if a little stiff..[/COLOR][/font][/COLOR]
Hope this is helpful.

aero2k

Good work!
I'd agree with the above, I cycle 10k x 10 per week (commuting) but would very much take the view that 4 easy miles is better than 1 hr cycle. In my limited opinion

aero2k

christeb wrote: »

Good work!
I'd agree with the above, I cycle 10k x 10 per week (commuting) but would very much take the view that 4 easy miles is better than 1 hr cycle. In my limited opinion

Yeah, I used to do most of my training and active recovery during my (sometimes extended) commutes to/from work. Cycling is way better than doing nothing, but you do need more time to get a good workout. I think my marathon disaster last year was just a matter of not spending enough time on my feet during my training. You can always get a little "rest" on the bike by freewheeling - doesn't work too well when running!
aero2k

scottreynolds

Cycling is good if your need to build your fitness base, or want to train on your off days. Regardless of what people say you can increase the intensity of the bike rides to match the fitness required for running.... just push the peddles harder.

However....... running till has to be the most important part of you training plan. After all at mile 18 of the marathon you can't jump on a bike . Conditionaing and strengthening the legs have to be paramount.

I say all this trying to convince myself that my first marathon training plan is going well... and that any cycling I do is just supporting my overall fitness.

pbuckland05

Im running 5 days a week at the mo about 30 miles per week I was looking at cycling 9 miles to work and 9 back 3 days a week it looks like ill benifit as i also want to drop half a stone in the next month of so.

kennyb3

scottreynolds wrote: »

Regardless of what people say you can increase the intensity of the bike rides to match the fitness required for running.... just push the peddles harder.

I totally agree with this bit, I think too many people think cycling is easy and doesnt give much of a workout (they take it too easy and go on nice leisurely ride). i was running 25 miles a week when i took up cycling, yet i was dripping with sweat after my first (personal) time trial spin of 20km which included some nice hills. really shocked me! its all about intensity, plus throw in some hills if you want to make it harder. simply plodding along on the bike into work wont be near as good as a run - obviously its better than nothing - uses a few calories, less stressful and saves on petrol/diesel.

running is still by far the most important thing in a marathon plan but a little cross training can help.

aero2k

scottreynolds wrote: »

Cycling is good if your need to build your fitness base, or want to train on your off days. Regardless of what people say you can increase the intensity of the bike rides to match the fitness required for running.... just push the peddles harder. .

From experience this is true, but it's more difficult psychologically to maintain the intensity on the bike. By virtue of using your arms and supporting your body weight, the default intensity of a run is a bit higher.

scottreynolds wrote: »

However....... running still has to be the most important part of you training plan. After all at mile 18 of the marathon you can't jump on a bike . Conditioning and strengthening the legs have to be paramount. .

Agree 100%.

scottreynolds wrote: »

I say all this trying to convince myself that my first marathon training plan is going well... and that any cycling I do is just supporting my overall fitness.

Best of luck with the marathon. Cycling will definitely help your fitness, the caveat is specificity. I'd love to spend a bit of time on the bike, but I'm saving all my time and energy for running, at least until DCM '09.

aero2k

aero2k

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im running 5 days a week at the mo about 30 miles per week I was looking at cycling 9 miles to work and 9 back 3 days a week it looks like ill benifit as i also want to drop half a stone in the next month of so.

Just from memory, and it's going back to '99/'00, I didn't start to lose weight until I started to include some high intensity work on the bike. You need to watch out for the increased appetite, and also of course it's easy to eat on the bike!
None of my comments are intended to discourage you from cycling, I think it's a great way to exercise but it depends on what your objectives are.

aero2k

pbuckland05

aero2k wrote: »

Just from memory, and it's going back to '99/'00, I didn't start to lose weight until I started to include some high intensity work on the bike. You need to watch out for the increased appetite, and also of course it's easy to eat on the bike!
None of my comments are intended to discourage you from cycling, I think it's a great way to exercise but it depends on what your objectives are.

aero2k

thanks for that Running is my major workout cycling is just a side thing to see if it will increase my fitness even slightly on my rest days from running

Peterx

For me the very best thing about the cycling is that you can do it on days when your legs are just too sore/strained to run. Once you find enough hills you can really get the heart pumping and legs thumping.
I'd a tight achilles for a week and without the cycling I'd have been very very frustrated and probably started back running too early and compounded the injury.

Krusty_Clown

Cycling is fine on rest or cross training days, but isn't a good substitute for running. Just wear a HRM and compare your average heart rate over an hour of running versus cycling (over flat'ish terrain). In terms of effort, it has been suggested that you need to cover 4x to 6x the planned running mileage. http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/8841.html I am running 4-5 days a week and cycling three times a week (only around 20-30k, as I find it helps my recovery, and was great when recovering from injury).

Aero2k: Are you sure you weren't trying to achieve a pace that was beyond your grasp at the time? What time did you finish in, and what plan did you follow? *Edit*: Just saw your respectable 3:17 finish time. Did you run out of steam?

Scottreynolds: Endurance is paramount.

kennyb3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Cycling is fine on rest or cross training days, but isn't a good substitute for running. Just wear a HRM and compare your average heart rate over an hour of running versus cycling (over flat'ish terrain). In terms of effort, it has been suggested that you need to cover 4x to 6x the planned running mileage. http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/8841.html I am running 4-5 days a week and cycling three times a week (only around 20-30k, as I find it helps my recovery, and was great when recovering from injury).

Aero2k: Are you sure you weren't trying to achieve a pace that was beyond your grasp at the time? What time did you finish in, and what plan did you follow?

Scottreynolds: Endurance is paramount.

krusty thanks you answered a burning question i had re running miles to cycling miles.

tergat

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

pbuckland05,

A few points:

1) Cycling will help boost your aerobic system and will do no harm on days where you are not running. Any aerobic excercise on these days is better than none at all!!!

2) Cycling though, is not SPECIFIC training for distance running. It uses different muscles and you will not recruit (train) the valuable muscle fibres you will need for the marathon. If you go back to my post on Marathon training you will see that you need to simulate the demands of the marathon and get your legs used to the pounding. The cycling will not do this but it may strengthen your quad muscles which will help in those last 6-8 miles of the marathon. What I am saying is, running is SPECIFIC to running so this should be your focus.

3) It would be better to try and run easy more often, but keep within your personal limits. Rememeber keep the ball rolling, momentum is the backbone of progression!!!

Tergat

pbuckland05

tergat wrote: »

pbuckland05,

A few points:

1) Cycling will help boost your aerobic system and will do no harm on days where you are not running. Any aerobic excercise on these days is better than none at all!!!

2) Cycling though, is not SPECIFIC training for distance running. It uses different muscles and you will not recruit (train) the valuable muscle fibres you will need for the marathon. If you go back to my post on Marathon training you will see that you need to simulate the demands of the marathon and get your legs used to the pounding. The cycling will not do this but it may strengthen your quad muscles which will help in those last 6-8 miles of the marathon. What I am saying is, running is SPECIFIC to running so this should be your focus.

3) It would be better to try and run easy more often, but keep within your personal limits. Rememeber keep the ball rolling, momentum is the backbone of progression!!!

Tergat

Cheers for that
The only worry I have that some say that non specific training has a negitive effect on endurance running the last thing I want to do is undermine all my hard work on the road I plan to cycle easy to work even on my running days

tergat

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Cheers for that
The only worry I have that some say that non specific training has a negitive effect on endurance running the last thing I want to do is undermine all my hard work on the road I plan to cycle easy to work even on my running days

pbuckland05,

No need to worry, cycling will NOT have a negative impact on your running. It would only impact on your running if you focused more on it than on your running. Cycling easy to and from work will do you good.

I coach a young 16 year old kid who cylcled a lot when he was younger (in primary school) and still cycles 10 miles or so to and from school on top of his running. He is the fittest kid I coach due to a great aerobic system bulit up during his childhood, similar to the Kenyans.....

Carry on cycling just dont neglect your running!!!

Tergat

rigal

@ Tergat -

What are your thoughts on supplementing weekly speed sessions on the track with trying to add in a session on the bike at a similar intensity? Could this make you a faster runner?

The more I read about running in books and through posts such as yours the more I learn that overdoing speedwork can lead to injury/burn out.

I know we shouldn't compare ourselves to the "great one" but in this article it's interesting to note that he does all his speed work on an exercise bike. Although it does also mention the fact that he runs 150 miles per week :eek:

http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3722761

Cheers,

R

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Aero2k: Are you sure you weren't trying to achieve a pace that was beyond your grasp at the time? What time did you finish in, and what plan did you follow? *Edit*: Just saw your respectable 3:17 finish time. Did you run out of steam?

Hi KC,

You've hit the nail on the head. The 3:17 time was from my first attempt as a reasonably fit 19 year old after completing a 12 week program from the Evening Press (anyone remember that?). This time I was aiming for sub 3, but my times for 10mile (66:28) and 1/2 (1:28:48) would have pointed towards 3:10 as being a good target. I had done 3 runs in excess of 20 miles at 7:20-7:25 pace, and even the day before I was thinking that 3:10 would be great given that it was windy. When I woke up at 5:30am on the day there wasn't a breath of a breeze, so I threw caution to the wind. I felt great up until half way and was running around 6:50 at that point, but then the group I was with threw in a 6:30 and after that I was in trouble. I didn't feel totally (physically) wrecked at the finish but I was psychologically shot from the constant battle with pain - pretty much from 14 miles on every step felt like someone was stabbing the side of each thigh with a very hot and very jagged knife. I had to walk down Foster's Avenue and there were other stretches of hobbling. It sounds contradictory but I felt full of running, except that my upper legs wouldn't work. I thought I was being a wimp at the time but then I read Dean Karnazes book (he's the guy who ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days) where he says "never give up unless..." and then goes on to list about 5 good reasons to stop - I think I had all of them. 3:22 is a respectable time given my age (44) and relative inexperience, but I'm sure I let a 3:10 escape with my early enthusiasm. Lesson learned, I hope!
BTW I used the First program which you can find here: http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?UAN=2493 - I had been running about 3 times per week for a year or so before embarking on the specific marathon training.
Thanks,
aero2k

T runner

pbuckland05 wrote: »

thanks for that Running is my major workout cycling is just a side thing to see if it will increase my fitness even slightly on my rest days from running

I thibnk its great to supplement your training and on rest days or days of muscle pain as Peterx said.

Ive managed to push up my overall mileage a bit by cycling more and then adding more running. I used to break down a lot more at my running limit but have managed to push this limit up through cycling (and circuits, swimming).

tergat

rigal wrote: »

@ Tergat -

What are your thoughts on supplementing weekly speed sessions on the track with trying to add in a session on the bike at a similar intensity? Could this make you a faster runner?

The more I read about running in books and through posts such as yours the more I learn that overdoing speedwork can lead to injury/burn out.

I know we shouldn't compare ourselves to the "great one" but in this article it's interesting to note that he does all his speed work on an exercise bike. Although it does also mention the fact that he runs 150 miles per week :eek:

Cheers,

R

rigal,

I have to admit I am no expert on cycling, I am sure there are others on here with more knowledge on cycling.

However I do not see the harm in adding a high intenity workout on the bike (if focusing on aerobic running), as it will get the HR working at a high level, increase stroke volume etc but it is not SPECIFIC to running. The reason you do SPEEDWORK is predominantly to work Fast Twitch A & B fibres, develop the ability to utilise & clear lactate and to get used to the pace you will race at. Without getting out there running you will not recruit these fibres and hence will be unable to call on these during a race.

As I have said on here before, I think speedwork is juat the icing on the cake. Aerobic work is what you need to focus on from easy pace to 10km pace. If you were to focus all your attention on these zones and add in 1 or 2high intensity sessions on the bike you would race well in my opinion for races 5km and up. The high intensity bike sessions would not be of much benefit if you were doing 2-3 speed workouts a week on the track or grass.

Tergat

cfitz

rigal wrote: »

The more I read about running in books and through posts such as yours the more I learn that overdoing speedwork can lead to injury/burn out.

I know we shouldn't compare ourselves to the "great one" but in this article it's interesting to note that he does all his speed work on an exercise bike. Although it does also mention the fact that he runs 150 miles per week :eek:

http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3722761

I think that's one the most surprising things I've ever read here. I'd be more convinced if I saw it mentioned somewhere else as well though - there's not even a related quote on that article. Could it have just been a temporary thing while recovering from injury?

scottreynolds

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im running 5 days a week at the mo about 30 miles per week I was looking at cycling 9 miles to work and 9 back 3 days a week it looks like ill benifit as i also want to drop half a stone in the next month of so.

In my professional opinion (as a photographer ) the best benefit you;ll get from this is doubling up on the excercise. I mean after your have commuted you should run as well .... this means that you've already going to have burnt alot of calories (hopefully sugar) by the time your start you run.

This is exactly what I do.... I work (kinda) in the IFSC and live in Portmarnock. I can get a good workout cycling 10 miles home (occassionally throw in howth hill for fun) and then do a good 5 miles around the sea.

rigal

cfitz wrote: »

I think that's one the most surprising things I've ever read here. I'd be more convinced if I saw it mentioned somewhere else as well though - there's not even a related quote on that article. Could it have just been a temporary thing while recovering from injury?

Yeah, I was suprised as well. Think I originally saw that article on here when someone posted it under a different context. Maybe it's not true or perhaps it's something he's changed as he's got older?

Krusty_Clown

One potential negative side effect of regular cycling (according to the bible) is that it can shorten your stride. The good book recommends that after a cycle, you should:

• Walk, then run slowly for several minutes after cycling
• Stretch your hamstrings, quads and hip flexors
• Also, keep the bike in an easy enough gear with RPMs of at least 90, so it doesn't detract from your running turonver

Krusty_Clown

aero2k wrote:

felt great up until half way and was running around 6:50 at that point, but then the group I was with threw in a 6:30 and after that I was in trouble.

Sounds like you were in with the 2:50-3:00 runners, which might explain the pain and the poor finish!

rigal

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

One potential negative side effect of regular cycling (according to the bible) is that it can shorten your stride. The good book recommends that after a cycle, you should:

• Walk, then run slowly for several minutes after cycling
• Stretch your hamstrings, quads and hip flexors
• Also, keep the bike in an easy enough gear with RPMs of at least 90, so it doesn't detract from your running turonver

Bless you Fr. Krusty..

I have been studying the bible diligently since your sermon yesterday (see KC's training log) and I see the almighty one advocates replacing a recovery run for 30mins with a cycle of c.45mins...

That's another excuse for me to get the bike out now :pac:

kennyb3

scottreynolds wrote: »

In my professional opinion (as a photographer ) the best benefit you;ll get from this is doubling up on the excercise. I mean after your have commuted you should run as well .... this means that you've already going to have burnt alot of calories (hopefully sugar) by the time your start you run.

This is exactly what I do.... I work (kinda) in the IFSC and live in Portmarnock. I can get a good workout cycling 10 miles home (occassionally throw in howth hill for fun) and then do a good 5 miles around the sea.

scott if you ever need a running partner im in robswall in malahide. do a good bit of cycling too but wouldnt be at your standard yet

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sounds like you were in with the 2:50-3:00 runners, which might explain the pain and the poor finish!

Not sure as I didn't really talk to any of them and didn't see them at the finish. I was happy with the pace up to that point. I felt much more comfortable than I had in the 10m or 1/2m. I've no idea why they speeded up, it was just that I felt myself start to struggle, then when I checked at the 14 (I think) marker we seemed to have done a 6:30 mile I let them go away as I knew that was too fast for me, but I think the damage was done at that stage, if not sooner.

Krusty_Clown

aero2k wrote: »

Not sure as I didn't really talk to any of them and didn't see them at the finish. I was happy with the pace up to that point. I felt much more comfortable than I had in the 10m or 1/2m. I've no idea why they speeded up, it was just that I felt myself start to struggle, then when I checked at the 14 (I think) marker we seemed to have done a 6:30 mile I let them go away as I knew that was too fast for me, but I think the damage was done at that stage, if not sooner.

They were doubtless doing a reverse-split strategy, and were probably aiming for around 2:50 or better. Aiming for a sub 3:10 (as I am now), your pace should've been closer to 7:16-7:20 for the first half, and you could have possibly made your target. Still, you posted a great time.

aDeener

pbuckland05 wrote: »

Im training for thr Dublin Marathon Im thinking of doing some cycling maybe 3 time per week would this be any benifit to me at all?

absolutely, if you intend on cycling the marathon

pbuckland05

As stated before the cycling is just a side thing Im still doing my full marathon training on the road the cycling was to be a added bonus so to speak

thebouldwhacker

So would cycling damage your marathon trainiing??

ie one hour cycle every morning and cycling as cross training, would this have a negitive impact on marathon training?

kennyb3

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

So would cycling damage your marathon trainiing??

ie one hour cycle every morning and cycling as cross training, would this have a negitive impact on marathon training?

not in my opinion anyway - it improves your cardio system and general fitness. you just need to make sure

a) it doesnt get in the way of running training
b) you stretch your legs properly after (to avoid muscle shortening)