Sister alcoholic, need help in deciding best action for nephews

LegacyUser

Hi,
I need help in deciding the best course of action to take. My sister is a chronic alcoholic she has two children by two different fathers and is currently living with another looser. She has a nice home thanks to my Mum who paid for it. But I am really concerned for her boys.
I don't know what to do for the best, When she is really bad like now I go in and remove them from the home but this is not fair on them. The oldest boy is 14 and no longer wants to be taken away from friends etc so he stays with an uncle my brother who lives in the same town. He is wild and failing at school he has no parental control and I am worried it is to late to change him now. The youngest lad is 10 and suffers from lack of concertration etc in school. He is not very academic and I am worried he will go the same wat as his brother.
I have three children of my own but am seriously thinking of fostering the youngest boy full time. I am not sure if my sister would agree to it and if I would need to seek advice from social workers etc. Has anyone else been in a similiar situtation ?. Its not that I wouldn't let him have contact with his mum etc I would. I just want to do what is best for him. Is he better of with her even if she is a terrible mother ?. Would I be risking my own happy family life if the child is very disturbed could he have an adverse effect on my children ? Will they resent the time he will surely take up and the extra expence etc.
I am so confused but just want to the right thing , only I don't know what that is ????

LegacyUser

Hey,

Just contact local duty social work and express your concerns. They will endeavour to help your sister and the kids. and if needed place them with relatives.

Best solution me thinks

Good Luck

lukesmom

If your sister is a chronic alcoholic and living with a looser then I am sorry but those boys should not be living there under any circumstances. You should definatley contact social services and I wouldnt delay on this. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and if it means the kids are better off then so be it. You have 3 children of your own so as a mother it must be hard for you to watch your nephews living in this turbulent and uncertain environment. Children need stability and a loving home to return to after school and Im sorry but a person who is completely dependant on alcohol cannot provide that. You say the 14 year old is gone wild (Im not suprised) and the 10 year old is already loosing concentration at school. He mind is obviously taken up with the dramas at home with his mother drinking herself into oblivion and her looser partner doing nothing constructive to get her help. I cannot imagine what that little boy must be going through. Get him out of there asap.:mad:

bSlick

lukesmom wrote: »

If your sister is a chronic alcoholic and living with a looser then I am sorry but those boys should not be living there under any circumstances. You should definatley contact social services and I wouldnt delay on this. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and if it means the kids are better off then so be it. You have 3 children of your own so as a mother it must be hard for you to watch your nephews living in this turbulent and uncertain environment. Children need stability and a loving home to return to after school and Im sorry but a person who is completely dependant on alcohol cannot provide that. You say the 14 year old is gone wild (Im not suprised) and the 10 year old is already loosing concentration at school. He mind is obviously taken up with the dramas at home with his mother drinking herself into oblivion and her looser partner doing nothing constructive to get her help. I cannot imagine what that little boy must be going through. Get him out of there asap.:mad:

Not a chance she will be able to 'get him out of there'. Just look at how hard it was to get the children away from the mother in the house of horrors case in roscommon a few months ago. No way they will be removed becasue of a 'merely' alcoholic parent. I don't really see much the op can do tbh, the system in Ireland for this kind of thing is just not up to scratch.

barbiegirl

I'd try to talk to your sister. When she is sober or at least semi sober. Tell her that you want to bring the boys to live with you. Bring them both, give the 14 year old a chance. Explain that it is so that they don't end up like her. I'm sure she loves them and wants the best for them, just as you love her. Get the support of the rest of the rest of the family.
Then meet with the boys, explain the situation. The 14 year old and you will need a serious chat. Explain that his little brother needs a stable home and needs him. In order for this to work he has to step up to the plate and behave. Agree a list of rules in advance and a list of punishments in terms of each rule. So he knows and understands the agreement.
Allow them contact with their mum and with their mates at home via phone, internet, afternoon visits etc. They will settle with you eventually.
Best of luck.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the advice but I know there is no way the older boy will come and live with me. He will not leave the town and school he is in. The younger lad probley will but is it more disruptive to move him from his friends etc. He is currently getting alot of support in school in terms of resource hours I am sure I will be able to organise this in my local primary school but again its all disruption.
Is he better off where he is or sholud I just take him. As for social services I don't hold out much hope for any assistance there i have tried in the past to get them a social worker no one seems to care in this country. My sister has been hospalised mamy many times for self harm and attempted sucide etc and no one in authority has ever even asked if the kids are OK. so if I do this I go alone. That is why I would love to hear from someone who has been in this situtation or is a social worker.
Will I be doing more harm than good ? Will it have an adverse effect on my own children ?

lukesmom

Unregistered wrote: »

Thanks for the advice but I know there is no way the older boy will come and live with me. He will not leave the town and school he is in. The younger lad probley will but is it more disruptive to move him from his friends etc. He is currently getting alot of support in school in terms of resource hours I am sure I will be able to organise this in my local primary school but again its all disruption.
Is he better off where he is or sholud I just take him. As for social services I don't hold out much hope for any assistance there i have tried in the past to get them a social worker no one seems to care in this country. My sister has been hospalised mamy many times for self harm and attempted sucide etc and no one in authority has ever even asked if the kids are OK. so if I do this I go alone. That is why I would love to hear from someone who has been in this situtation or is a social worker.
Will I be doing more harm than good ? Will it have an adverse effect on my own children ?

From experience I can tell you that social workers are pretty much useless and I know I will probably be slated for saying this. I have a best friend who has been involved in a custody battle this year and had a large involvement with a social worker who I might add was negligent, impossible to reach when needed, very difficult to approach and a classic 'textbook' social worker. i.e had no experience with children only what was read in college books. That caused this case to linger on and on for 18 months and ironically it has ended today in court successfully for my friend. If I was in your situation I would most likely deal with it myself - keep it in the family because once you get social workers involved they can make the situation 10 times worse. As a sister you have a duty to help her and help her children regardless of how your own may feel. These boys are their cousins. I would not delay as emotional trauma at 10 years of age will have a lasting effect and the sooner he is removed out of that situation the better for everybody.

username123

Hi Op,
What a dreadful situation. I have (unfortunately) had a lot of up close and personal experience with alcoholism in a family member. Not criticising you here, but you stepping in and removing the kids when things are really bad is actually enabling your sisters alcoholism. If she knows that when the chips are really down and she is completely incapable that someone steps in, takes the kids to a better place AND gives them back afterwards, then theres no real incentive to her to get her act together for the sake of the kids - no doubt she is in denial about the way things are already going for them.

I think the best advice I can give you is to get social services involved. I dont think for a minute the will do anything terribly useful, a previous poster mentioned the system in Ireland is just not up to scratch and its true. But it might put the frighteners on your sister how bad things are getting. I would be honest with her about doing that too - no point in hiding it. Then try and talk to your sister sober, and see will she willingly allow you to foster the younger child. If you can point out to her (without laying a guilt trip) that its really not a good situation for him to be in she may agree?

On your opening questions - is he better off with her even if she is a terrible mother - no he is not, he is better off in an environment of stability. Will you be risking your own happy family life - no doubt there will be difficulties, but you will find ways to help the child and overcome them. He wont have an adverse effect on your own children in the sense that - his issues are as a result of an alcoholic parent neglecting/abusing him, he wont be imposing THAT behaviour on your children, but he may well be unruly and a boundary pusher - so be aware that its unlikely to be plain sailing. However, if your own family and balanced and disciplined chances are the overwhelming positive effects from you guys will be stronger than any negative energies he throws out. And be honest with him and with your kids - I can promise you he knows that his mother is an alcoholic and wishes things were different - kids know about alcoholism at a very young age. You could also contact Alanon and see about getting him into an Alateen type program, there are some facilities available for under 12s - they would point you in the right direction. Alanon would be useful for you also in learning how not to enable your sister and how to behave in the healthiest way in the face of her addiction.

Most importantly for the children - whether or not you get to foster the youngest - you should make it clear to them that you are a shoulder and a support for them. Also ask them what they want, and if the answer is they want their mother not to drink then be clear and explain what alcoholism is to them - dont try to cover it up for them - they already know worse things than you can imagine from living with an alcoholic parent.

Depending on your religious bent you might consider getting your sisters parish priest involved, personally I am non religious but in my own family situation the parish priest was a useful support mechanism.

I hope things improve for you.

LegacyUser

What about the fathers BTW.

I would go and see the duty social worker but would be very cynical about what help they will give. I have a friend a divorced Dad who had a similar experience and his kids had gone feral and the period of time to get something arranged meant it never happened.

You should try but dont expect miracles.

The authorities will probably expect you to take both kids and not split them up and that could strenghten your case.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all your suggestions. Father of older boy lives in England and does have the lad on holidays but is not a great influence he does not drink but neither does he work. He plays play station etc all day long. The father of the younger boy has not been seen or heard of in years .
I know you are right that I am probabley an enabler...my Dad was also an alcoholic so I know what the experts say but it is so hard to be objective when you are in the middle of it.
I do not want to give the child back I begged her to give me care of him when he was two but she wont. I know the drill I will get a phone call and she will cry and say she is sorry and wants her child back, the boy does love his mum and will want to go back, I know that he would be better in my home with two stable parents and a loving environment but what do I do.
I seriously don't think the social services will remove the child from her care so if I go down that road I risk splitting the family up and possibly not being able to step in next time he really needs me. If anyone out there has been down the social service route and can tell me I will get the child then I will do it. As I say his brother will not come and live with me and I don't think anything will be gained from forcing him... He is very head strong and would be capable of running away...My brother is very good with him and he is happy there.

username123

Unregistered wrote: »

Thanks for all your suggestions. Father of older boy lives in England and does have the lad on holidays but is not a great influence he does not drink but neither does he work. He plays play station etc all day long. The father of the younger boy has not been seen or heard of in years .

Sounds like the father of one boy is fairly useless and if the other one is not around then thats a dead end too.

Unregistered wrote: »

I know you are right that I am probabley an enabler...my Dad was also an alcoholic so I know what the experts say but it is so hard to be objective when you are in the middle of it.

Dont feel guilty about enabling things, you are caught in a very very difficult situation and probably the only way for you not to enable it at all would be to totally walk away - but I understand that you do not want to do that because of the children - which is a good thing! However, there are strategies for coping with alcoholics that keep the enabling down as much as possible so you might want to educate yourself in that direction with a view to being helpful and supportive while doing minimal enabling.

Unregistered wrote: »

I do not want to give the child back I begged her to give me care of him when he was two but she wont. I know the drill I will get a phone call and she will cry and say she is sorry and wants her child back, the boy does love his mum and will want to go back, I know that he would be better in my home with two stable parents and a loving environment but what do I do.

Could you see if there is a legal route available to you so that you could foster the child and give her supervised access etc? Can you reason with her when she is sober and have her agree to full time fostering with access for her on a regular basis?

Unregistered wrote: »

I seriously don't think the social services will remove the child from her care so if I go down that road I risk splitting the family up and possibly not being able to step in next time he really needs me. If anyone out there has been down the social service route and can tell me I will get the child then I will do it. As I say his brother will not come and live with me and I don't think anything will be gained from forcing him... He is very head strong and would be capable of running away...My brother is very good with him and he is happy there.

I think its highly unlikely that social services will step in and allow you to take the child permanently without your sisters consent. You really need to be in a very very bad way in this country before they take your kids off you, or be subjecting them to some kind of measurable physical or sexual abuse, the neglect through alcoholism that you describe just wont cut it with social services.

The only other suggestion I can make is that you gather as many family members/concerned friends that you can and try to organise an intervention for your sister where she is confronted by all about her alcoholism and told that she NEEDS help. You could phone the Rutland Centre for more information on how to organise an intervention, similarly you could phone AA yourself and see can they offer any advice. If you could get her to address her alcoholism the kids might have a chance to have a better mother?

Beyond that all you can really do is stay supportive to the kids and keep on the backs of social services.

bush Baby

I have this T-shirt. My ex wife is an alcoholic and I'm afraid there is nothing anyone can do for your sister until she admits she has a problem. Once that happens you both can start to help each other. You to get help to understand your sister's problems and Alcoholics anonymous is the place for your sister. It is a truly wonderful organization.

Start going to "alanon" yourself now so you can get a handle on the catastrophically warped world the alcoholic lives in. You as a sane normal human, sister or not you can't ever make sense to her. Its a tough call on the kids but as someone advised here get the local social services on the ball. A visit to your sister from one of their trained workers can work wonders.

Sometimes tough love works wonders. Find a photograph of you with your sister when you were small children. Show it to her and ask her if the way she's living now really fair to that precious, special, full of "wonder and potential" little girl in the photograph.

If nothing, it might make her start to think.

Good luck

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

Hi,
I need help in deciding the best course of action to take. My sister is a chronic alcoholic she has two children by two different fathers and is currently living with another looser. She has a nice home thanks to my Mum who paid for it. But I am really concerned for her boys.
I don't know what to do for the best, When she is really bad like now I go in and remove them from the home but this is not fair on them. The oldest boy is 14 and no longer wants to be taken away from friends etc so he stays with an uncle my brother who lives in the same town. He is wild and failing at school he has no parental control and I am worried it is to late to change him now. The youngest lad is 10 and suffers from lack of concertration etc in school. He is not very academic and I am worried he will go the same wat as his brother.
I have three children of my own but am seriously thinking of fostering the youngest boy full time. I am not sure if my sister would agree to it and if I would need to seek advice from social workers etc. Has anyone else been in a similiar situtation ?. Its not that I wouldn't let him have contact with his mum etc I would. I just want to do what is best for him. Is he better of with her even if she is a terrible mother ?. Would I be risking my own happy family life if the child is very disturbed could he have an adverse effect on my children ? Will they resent the time he will surely take up and the extra expence etc.
I am so confused but just want to the right thing , only I don't know what that is ????

hey well as i said you are not alone my family is finding ourselves in the same problem my sister is 23 and has a two year old little girl this child is in pubs all day most days arriving home well well after bed time could be getting home 11 12 at night after keeping drinking going in some ones house there is also the problem with the prick she is with like to kick lumps out of her we have had calls from the guards to take this child as both of them in no fit state to care for her we have talked to her about it till we are blue in the face and it is no good tonight myself and my mother tried to get the child from the pub but it all blue up so we had to leave the guards said we could not take her as we have no right that we should get social workers but my mother is just been a mum and does not want to do that to my sister i just few it will only get worse and this lovly little angle is in the middle of this

CDfm

I read your thread and its really sad.

Fathers have very little rights in Ireland but he will have more legal rights then you do. You have no rights over the children at all.

I suggest you contact the childrens father/fathers in the first instance and try to be friends and ask his support and offer your support to for child centred intervention.

You may think he is a lazy git but nonetheless your sister is no angel and who knows how her behavior affected him.

There is support available for single parents if the father relocated here and if he didn't he could add weight to your efforts.

You have to be practical as these children are in an abusive situation.

Where to start to find out might be thru fathers rights groups

Unmarried and Seperated Fathers Ireland www.usfi.ie

Unmarried and Seperated Parents www.uspi.ie

Parental Equality at www.parentalequality.ie

Best of luck you sound like a terrific aunt and dont be discouraged or put off.

miec

I suggest you contact the childrens father/fathers in the first instance and try to be friends and ask his support and offer your support to for child centred intervention.

Read the Op's post properly please instead of going on about father's rights etc. The father of the first child lives in England, the whereabouts of father of the ten year old boy is unknown so the Op cannot contact him. So your advice is a complete waste of time.

Op, I am sorry to hear you are in such a dilmena, and whilst someone has said if you remove the ten year old child it will enable her alcholism, well to be honest the child's welfare is more important, your sister has a choice to stop, your nephew has no choice, he has to live with and suffer her alcoholism.

I would contact social services, they can be helpful but you do need to push them. It is unlikely your sister is going to quit drinking now if she has almost lost one son so I would take your nephew and give him stability.

Personally I would suggest you tell your sister what you are doing and also be transparent with your nephew, explain to him that you are moving him to your house because it is not safe for him, do not ask him but tell him openly and honestly, say you love him and want him to be safe and happy, that you have his welfare at heart but you are taking charge. Prior to moving your nephew I would suggest you talk it with your family and ask how they would feel, then when your nephew moves in have continuous family discussions. It will be extremely difficult for you and you are right your decision will be tough on you and everyone else, you may come under a lot of resentment, anger etc. It is incredible how many people silently support abuse by doing nothing and wringing their hands, but people like you who are willing to take action for the greater good of a child are wonderul and you are to be commended. If you wish to talk you can pm me. Good luck and fair play to you for caring.

CDfm

miec wrote: »

Read the Op's post properly please instead of going on about father's rights etc. The father of the first child lives in England, the whereabouts of father of the ten year old boy is unknown so the Op cannot contact him. So your advice is a complete waste of time.

I think you have missed my point. The OP has no legal rights whatsoever. Zippo. There is no use pretending that she has any or that the Social Services can or will do anything.

I do know of a situation very similar to the OPs where the Family Court system was used for the benefit of the children who went to live with their aunt( the mothers sister) with the cooperation of the childrens father.

I am not optimistic here but would hope that the OP would put her feelings about the childrens fathers to one side if that allows her to arrive at a better outcome for the children. I am supportive of what she wants to do.

The reason I suggested that she contact fathers rights groups is that they have more experience or dealing with these issues and the courts and social services than others do especially as what she is suggesting and wants to do is take the children from another woman. So my reason for posting the links is that she can contact people to help her and if cooperation from the childrens fathers does that well its a very small price.

So what I am saying to the OP is to use whatever means she has at her disposal here and if there is an angle she should make use of it.