Miracles

bogwalrus

hi all.

I just have a question on miracles.

I was watching on euro news about the girl who survived the comoros air disaster. There was some footage of her father talking about that it was her destiny to survive and there was another news bulletin on bbc that had people talking about it being a miracle.

Now when i hear miracle i just think "very lucky" as i dont really believe in god.

I am just curious to know whether you guys would think the case of the girl surviving is a miracle in a "god saved her" kind of way or that she was just very lucky.

I mean miracles obviously originated from religious ideas. I am really just wondering what kind of incidents classify as a "god involved miracle" and how do you know when the lord has been involved.

Maybe this is a bit irrelevant but i hope you understand what i am trying to ask.

Thanks.

kelly1

bogwalrus wrote: »

I am just curious to know whether you guys would think the case of the girl surviving is a miracle in a "god saved her" kind of way or that she was just very lucky.

Hello BW, I think we have no way of knowing unless she was very badly injured and pulled through against all odds. Was she hurt?

bogwalrus wrote: »

I mean miracles obviously originated from religious ideas. I am really just wondering what kind of incidents classify as a "god involved miracle" and how do you know when the lord has been involved.

Miracles, usually involve a sudden inexplicable recovery from a serious illness. Again depends on what happened to the girl.

And respect for using the word "Lord"!

Fanny Cradock

Good question! It's difficult to say what constitutes chance and what constitutes a miracle. We all accept that there are some very bizarre and chance happenings occurring the world over. After all, somebody has to win the lotto despite the terrible odds, right? And I would say that often people mistakenly label these happenings as miracles.

I would think that a genuine miracle as understood by a Christianity would involve some dramatic and seemingly impossible deviation away from what would be expected or what is known. Furthermore, these events would be in some way be beneficial to God's plan, though not always obvious to us.

I've never witnessed a miracle myself, but then rarity is part of its very essence. The people who have testified to me that they have seen God doing extraordinary things have been left in no doubt as to whether it was chance or a miracle.

It seems to me that if one dismisses miracles for whatever reason then there is only chance. On the other hand, the believer has to try and distinguish between chance and divine intervention which seems to be far from easy.

bogwalrus

some would think that its almost impossible odds for someone to survive a plane crash and be found still alive after a few hours in freezing water. she was injured a bit. few broken bones etc.

Another reason i posted was because i was considering the consequence of this so called miracle. The father seemed convinced she survived because it was her destiny. The girl is already in a really traumatic state and now she is going to be living the rest of her life with her father (and most likely others) telling her that she survived for a reason, or that god saved her etc.

The girl is in a really vulnerable state and she might take these ideas on board and become really deluded.

I just think it could possibly be harmful to her and effect her life drastically. She might start think she is a gift from god and go crazy.

(no offence intended in the above post)

kelly1

bogwalrus wrote: »

The girl is in a really vulnerable state and she might take these ideas on board and become really deluded.

I just think it could possibly be harmful to her and effect her life drastically. She might start think she is a gift from god and go crazy.

OK, so she might be convinced that God loves her and has a purpose for her. Or it will strenghten her faith in God. That's good.

What are you concerned about? That she'll think she's some kind of messiah?

You appear to be jumping to conclusions!

TheManWho

I think he means that she will spend her remaining life preaching the word of God, instead of something usefull such as cancer research or lobbying for airplane safety measures.

Fanny Cradock

bogwalrus wrote: »

some would think that its almost impossible odds for someone to survive a plane crash and be found still alive after a few hours in freezing water. she was injured a bit. few broken bones etc.

Another reason i posted was because i was considering the consequence of this so called miracle. The father seemed convinced she survived because it was her destiny. The girl is already in a really traumatic state and now she is going to be living the rest of her life with her father (and most likely others) telling her that she survived for a reason, or that god saved her etc.

The girl is in a really vulnerable state and she might take these ideas on board and become really deluded.

I just think it could possibly be harmful to her and effect her life drastically. She might start think she is a gift from god and go crazy.

(no offence intended in the above post)

To be perfectly honest you are skirting close to causing offence. Let me tell you why. You ask about miracles and then suggest that this girl could end up deluded because of her hypothetical belief in them. By extension you imply something similar about anyone who happens to believe in miracles. We haven't even established that this is what she currently believes let alone what her opinion will be in 10 years time. But suppose it is her opinion? It doesn't follow that belief in miracles leads to dangerous delusions.

Conversely what if there is a God and what if he did save her for a reason? I find it decidedly odd that you are inventing mental perils for this girl with regards to what she may or may not believe whilst ignoring the very real struggle she faces in coming to terms with her survival.

If you utterly dismiss the idea of miracles then that's just fine, but I rather wonder why you would bother asking a believer in such things to agree with you.

stevejazzx

By extension on same topic; is god conidered a miracle? If he is then aren't miracles only miracles to us humans becasue we see such things as 'magical or impossible'. Does it not follow then that miracles are a man made idea becasue surely God doens't think of himself as a miracle even if he is one.

dvpower

Her father is claiming it as a miracle:

"I never thought she would get out like that - it's the Good Lord who wanted it," said Mr Bakari who remains in Paris.

If this is a miracle, it does raise some questions. What about the other 152 people who perished - did God kill them? And what if she doesn't pull through - reevaluate the miracle claim or just God changing his mind?

Pompey Magnus

It was less to do with a miracle and more due to her being small (so her head was not above the head rest and legs were not on the ground, therefore her seat acted as a shield for most of her body) and good fortune to be seated in the part of the plane she was in. It has been long recognised that children have a greater survival rate from these kind of plane crashes than adults and there are perfectly good scientific explanations for why this is. People ignorant of these rational explanations might well think that just because everyone else died then one person to survive must be thanks to God, but they are wrong.

Was she lucky? Absolutely. Was it a mirace? No.

PDN

I would define a miracle as being something that defies what we think of as the laws of nature (eg Jesus turning water into wine) or something where ascribing it to coincidence requires more faith than simply believing 'God did it'.

For example, if I am in need of money and someone happens to give me 999 euro then that is nice (lucky, if you want) but is hardly a miracle. If I had been praying for an unspecified financial blessing then I will view the 999 euro as answered prayer - but not a miracle. If I had an electricity bill for exactly 999 euro and had prayed for that precise amount the night before then I would see the unsolicited gift of that exact amount coming within 24 hours as a miracle (providing I was satisfied the donor had no knowledge of my electricity bill).

So, if someone happens to find a coin in a fish's mouth - that is not a miracle. But when Peter did it in direct obedience to the command of Jesus and the coin was the precise amount to pay the temple tax, then that was a miracle.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that this girl was incredibly lucky, that her survival may well be an instance of answered prayer, but that I don't see any reason to call it a miracle.

bogwalrus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

To be perfectly honest you are skirting close to causing offence. Let me tell you why. You ask about miracles and then suggest that this girl could end up deluded because of her hypothetical belief in them. By extension you imply something similar about anyone who happens to believe in miracles. We haven't even established that this is what she currently believes let alone what her opinion will be in 10 years time. But suppose it is her opinion? It doesn't follow that belief in miracles leads to dangerous delusions.

Conversely what if there is a God and what if he did save her for a reason? I find it decidedly odd that you are inventing mental perils for this girl with regards to what she may or may not believe whilst ignoring the very real struggle she faces in coming to terms with her survival.

If you utterly dismiss the idea of miracles then that's just fine, but I rather wonder why you would bother asking a believer in such things to agree with you.

what i am concerned of is that the father will impose his belief on the young 14year old girl. She may well believe in miracles but the fact that her farther is saying that it is her destiny reinforces things to a level where it might delude her.

I know if i was in an accident like that and was told it was a miracle (in the god saved you sort of way) and that she now has some kind of destiny to fulfill it would make a huge change in my life.

Other than her being told that yes she was lucky where she would probably grow up accepting that she could have died but didnt and not go searching for answers as to why she didnt die when the real reason is because she got lucky.

BrianCalgary

The Bible clearly states that God has a plan for each life, should you choose to accept.

I have taught that to my children as this father is also teaching his child.

My daughter survived a severe medical issue, my son survived open heart surgery, why? Because has a greater purpose for them in the future and it was not His appointed time to take either one of my kids home.

BrianCalgary

BrianCalgary wrote: »

My daughter survived a severe medical issue, my son survived open heart surgery, why? Because has a greater purpose for them in the future and it was not His appointed time to take either one of my kids home.

With all due respect, I'm sure the doctors involved in both of your children's operations and medical troubles (and it's brilliant to see that they got through it all) played a pretty big role, too.

It annoys me immensely when a person thanks God -- more than the doctors involved -- for helping somebody through a medical problem. (I'm not saying that this is what you're doing, Brian -- infact I know this isn't what you're doing -- it's just a generic statement). Anyway, sorry, this is off-topic.

postcynical

I agree with PDN's summary above.

OP - with faith, very mundane events are revealed for the miracles they are. I regularly experience miracles, usually within the laws of nature but improbable, sometimes events that defy the laws of nature as I understand them. Occasionally I see that creation and nature itself are miraculous.

There is a scene in Pulp Fiction, late in the film where Jules asks Vincent to acknowledge that the 'freak event' they had just witnessed was a miracle. Jules then proceeds with the insightful 'I felt that God got involved'. This is a miracle to me, when I sense God's direct presence or intervention in the world. They are terribly frequent events, miracles.

lugha

PDN wrote: »

I would define a miracle as being something that defies what we think of as the laws of nature

Does a miracle so defined not refute the argument that Christianity is not incompatible with science?

bogwalrus

postcynical wrote: »

I agree with PDN's summary above.

OP - with faith, very mundane events are revealed for the miracles they are. I regularly experience miracles, usually within the laws of nature but improbable, sometimes events that defy the laws of nature as I understand them. Occasionally I see that creation and nature itself are miraculous.

There is a scene in Pulp Fiction, late in the film where Jules asks Vincent to acknowledge that the 'freak event' they had just witnessed was a miracle. Jules then proceeds with the insightful 'I felt that God got involved'. This is a miracle to me, when I sense God's direct presence or intervention in the world. They are terribly frequent events, miracles.

yeah i think i understand what you mean. good reference=)

prinz

Charco wrote: »

It was less to do with a miracle and more due to her being small (so her head was not above the head rest and legs were not on the ground, therefore her seat acted as a shield for most of her body) and good fortune to be seated in the part of the plane she was in. It has been long recognised that children have a greater survival rate from these kind of plane crashes than adults and there are perfectly good scientific explanations for why this is.

So not only do you (a) know what effect her seat had on this girl (b) know where she was seated on the plane (c) you know what kind of plane crash it was.......... I think you're jumping to as many conclusions to show how rational you are as anyone who describes it as a miracle. Were you there? No.

PDN

lugha wrote: »

Does a miracle so defined not refute the argument that Christianity is not incompatible with science?

No, it simply demonstrates the limitations of our scientific knowledge.

lugha

PDN wrote: »

No, it simply demonstrates the limitations of our scientific knowledge.

Apologies if I misunderstand you, but the implication of that would seem to be that miracles have a natural explanation, albeit one which we do not yet understand. I would have thought that that is one characteristic a miracle absolutely must not have. Surely a miracle comes about when God intervenes directly? If a miracle is consistent with the laws of nature then it is unreasonable to propose divine intervention as an explanation.

PDN

lugha wrote: »

Apologies if I misunderstand you, but the implication of that would seem to be that miracles have a natural explanation, albeit one which we do not yet understand. I would have thought that that is one characteristic a miracle absolutely must not have. Surely a miracle comes about when God intervenes directly? If a miracle is consistent with the laws of nature then it is unreasonable to propose divine intervention as an explanation.

The natural explanation that we do not yet understand is God. Philosophically I do not draw an artificial distinction between the natural and the supernatural. If God is the Creator then every natural law, every evolutionary process, is one way that God has worked or is working. If He sometimes chooses to work in another way then that is cool and surprising for us, but still part of the overall structure of the universe.

For example, in the last year I have read of two instances of parthenogenesis (virgin birth) among species where such a process was thought impossible (hammerhead sharks and nile monitors - this last one in Kilkenny http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lizards-birth-is-virgin-on-the-miraculous-1801730.html). I fail to see how a theist can distinguish between a previously unobserved and unexplained natural phenomena and a direct intervention by God.

lugha

PDN wrote: »

If God is the Creator then every natural law, every evolutionary process, is one way that God has worked or is working.
If He sometimes chooses to work in another way then that is cool and surprising for us, but still part of the overall structure of the universe.

Well if you believe say that Jesus walked on water and explain the violation of the laws of gravity by proposing that that law was temporarily repealed / modified then yes, I suppose in a trivial sense, religion and science are compatible. But then, is there any claim that would not be consistent with science if you permit that kind of latitude?

PDN wrote: »

I fail to see how a theist can distinguish between a previously unobserved and unexplained natural phenomena and a direct intervention by God.

Doesn’t that call into question the whole purpose of miracles? What would be the point of God intervening if believers do not properly attribute such divine intervention to him?

ChocolateSauce

A miracle isn't something that contravenes the laws of physics, just something that has odds somewhere in the range of 1 in Graham's number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number). A statue waving its arm back and forth isn't literally impossible. There's no reason all the atoms vibrating randomly couldn't all just happen to vibrate in one direction by chance and then back again. If god exists, it works within the bounds of physics. It's also hypothetically possible for the atoms in the eyes of a statue to transmute into other elements and spontaneously form blood; it'll just never happen because the number of events that would have to happen in exactly the right way are just way too unlikely.

PDN

lugha wrote: »

Well if you believe say that Jesus walked on water and explain the violation of the laws of gravity by proposing that that law was temporarily repealed / modified then yes, I suppose in a trivial sense, religion and science are compatible. But then, is there any claim that would not be consistent with science if you permit that kind of latitude?

If you allow for the possibility of miracles then, yes, anything is potentially consistent withy science (except logical impossibilities such as a square circle). If you actually saw someone walk on water and verified that it had genuinely happened then wouldn't that, by definition, make it consistent with science? Your conception of what is scientifically possible would have to change to accommodate what you had just witnessed.

As I see it, from a philosophical standpoint, the only way you can argue that miracles are incompatible with science is to take an a priori position that miracles are, by definition, impossible.

Some 'miracles' are obviously consistent with science. Imagine I was captured by persecutors who forced me to play Russian roulette with a 6-chambered revolver loaded with five bullets. Let's say that I spin the chamber 500 times and every time I survive because the one empty chamber falls randomly into line. No scientific or natural law would need to be broken - but most of us would see such an event as a miracle.

Doesn’t that call into question the whole purpose of miracles? What would be the point of God intervening if believers do not properly attribute such divine intervention to him?

Because God does things out of compassion, not just to get our applause. If a baby was about to fall off a cliff and God, out of compassion, supernaturally intervened to stop the baby falling, then that would be a miracle irrespective of whether an adult witnessed it or not.

lugha

PDN wrote: »

Some 'miracles' are obviously consistent with science. Imagine I was captured by persecutors who forced me to play Russian roulette with a 6-chambered revolver loaded with five bullets. Let's say that I spin the chamber 500 times and every time I survive because the one empty chamber falls randomly into line. No scientific or natural law would need to be broken - but most of us would see such an event as a miracle.

I suppose a lot hangs on definitions. For me a miracle requires divine intervention. I do not consider highly improbable events such as winning 500 games of Russian roulette on the spin as miracles. If God did not intervene and favorably aligned the gun barrel for you then that would be just good luck (or possibly a bad rotary mechanism). Of course your persecutors I imagine would have been in turn, intrigued and frustrated by your good fortune and would likely have taken to bashing you over the head with something long before you reached double digits. Also and interestingly you have already defied far, far more impressive odds in terms of just being here by virtue of all your ancestors having met and reproduced at exactly the times they did.