citezenship - rights when born

conchubhar1

can citezenship be given up, or revoked?

can one return to being outside of local laws, international laws and societies and revert back to having all rights as they had when they were born - and revoke all the rights that were take/given throughout their life many without their ''consent''

well?

turgon

Asfaik one can revoke citizenship. However I believe you have to be a citizen of another state so you cannot be left without any "home" country. I've also heard it takes ages (years) for the application to revoke citizenship to go through.

conchubhar1

why does one need to be a citezen of a state? rhethorical

turgon

Well I imagine so that you will have somewhere to go. For example was it the fildm "The Terminal" where someone got stuck in an Airport Terminal because neither the US government nor their "home" country would take them back. The film was based on a true story afaik. A civil war had broken out in the home country which meant the man in question had nowhere to go.

EDIT: well something like it, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri

conchubhar1

if i revoked irish citezenship - would i have to leave ireland, get a job and pay taxes etc etc?

again mostly rthetorical - why is that the case is more my point

wes

conchubhar1 wrote: »

why does one need to be a citezen of a state? rhethorical

The rights of an individual tend to be backed up by a state. Being stateless means you have no one to back up these rights. You have no passport to travel. No one to provide services etc for you. Basically, without membership of a state, an individual will have a very hard time functioning in society.

Here is some info from the UNHCR on stateless people:
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c155.html

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conchubhar1

again - why does one have to be a member of a state

it is not something anyone chose

again - i would not like the functioning in society bit as that is obvious and my question and point attempts to go above that

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

again - why does one have to be a member of a state

it is not something anyone chose

again - i would not like the functioning in society bit as that is obvious and my question and point attempts to go above that

Well if you were not a member of a state then you would have to leave the country as you would be an illegal alien. You couldnt go to any other country (legally) because you are not member of that state or any other state. You would have to apply for a work permit/visa in order to stay and earn money to survive. It would be difficult to get a permit or visa because you do not come from anywhere...

conchubhar1

okay

'' can one return to being outside of local laws, international laws and societies and revert back to having all rights as they had when they were born - and revoke all the rights that were take/given throughout their life many without their ''consent'' ''

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

okay

'' can one return to being outside of local laws, international laws and societies and revert back to having all rights as they had when they were born - and revoke all the rights that were take/given throughout their life many without their ''consent'' ''

Surely you would have to obey the laws of the country in which you are in regardless of your nationality, similiar to an American tourist visiting Ireland. They must obey our laws and are entitled to the same rights that other nationals have.

Can I ask why you are interested?

conchubhar1

is there any territory - beside arctic and antarcic that is not belonging to any country

could one leave in the ocean and come to land whenever tehy needed to trade for other items - and only obey laws in the sense if they dont commit a crime its all good


well, its all hypothethical - hard to finger down a reason why i want to know

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

is there any territory - beside arctic and antarcic that is not belonging to any country

could one leave in the ocean and come to land whenever tehy needed to trade for other items - and only obey laws in the sense if they dont commit a crime its all good


well, its all hypothethical - hard to finger down a reason why i want to know

you wouldnt be allowed come on shore to trade without a visa permitting entry. u would have to stay outside territorial waters and so only trade with passing ships.

conchubhar1

well - i could enter ireland quite easily
and i could pass as a local no bother - technically being one

solice

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well - i could enter ireland quite easily
and i could pass as a local no bother - technically being one

You could, but you shouldn't!

I think im having a very bizare conversation

conchubhar1

true, i shouldnt

this is all hypothetical anyway

---

define ''I'' and ''think'' - have a think about what they mean

Lockstep

turgon wrote: »

Well I imagine so that you will have somewhere to go. For example was it the fildm "The Terminal" where someone got stuck in an Airport Terminal because neither the US government nor their "home" country would take them back. The film was based on a true story afaik. A civil war had broken out in the home country which meant the man in question had nowhere to go.

EDIT: well something like it, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri

I've an interest in citizenships/emigration and only recently came across the idea that someone could be stateless. Above is a very good example.
Vatican is a strange one as your citizenship is only valid while you work there; if you lack any other citizenship then you get automatic Italian citizenship.

This thread; fascinating stuff.

conchubhar1

to get back to the start

why did i, for example, choose to be an irish citizen?

yes my parents made that decision for me - can i now cancel it or refute it? (call it what you like)

again - hypothetical

Lockstep

IIRC your parents don't choose you to be a citizen; it's automatic.

conchubhar1

my bad

then my question still stands - i didnt make that choice nor did a family member

can i now reject it?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conchubhar1

i did not trumpet anything - i stated i use irish.....

anyway - this is all hypothetical and my point is being not of any state

so taking up citezenship in another place was already pointed out - and i explained why i see that option but dont want it
thanks

Belfast

conchubhar1 wrote: »

can citezenship be given up, or revoked?

can one return to being outside of local laws, international laws and societies and revert back to having all rights as they had when they were born - and revoke all the rights that were take/given throughout their life many without their ''consent''

well?

Rights are conferenced by law in case of Ireland by the Constitution.

no Constitution no rights.

The only way to do that would to start your own country and start it the way you want it.

Even if you became a stateless person you are still bound by the laws of the place you live in.

How to Start Your Own Country (book)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Start_Your_Own_Country_(book)

How to Start Your Own Country (TV series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Start_Your_Own_Country_(TV_series) BBC

HOW TO START YOUR OWN MICRONATION
http://www.geocities.com/micronations/

Micronation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Statelessness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_person

Belfast

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Lockstep

Belfast wrote: »

you can create your own virtual world.

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Belfast wrote: »

Rights are conferenced by law in case of Ireland by the Constitution.

no Constitution no rights.

Not strictly true; we have rights through the EU which are enforceable and antecedant to Irish law (as well as rights from the UN)


We also have rights through statutes.

Belfast

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I love Nationstates; here's my Republic of Kilarnia
Despite a 100% tax tate, the private sector remains strong.

I just started mine today.
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=JohnMosby
the start up questions seem a bit loaded.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Not strictly true; we have rights through the EU which are enforceable and antecedant to Irish law (as well as rights from the UN)
We also have rights through statutes.

I did not include rights in statues (these I call privileges) as these can be withdrawn by the Dail. rights in the Constitution can only be changed by a direct vote of the people.
privileges are like rights but can be withdrawn by the Dail.

Belfast

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I love Nationstates; here's my Republic of Kilarnia
Despite a 100% tax tate, the private sector remains strong.

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Iwasfrozen

Conchubar1 wrote:

i did not trumpet anything - i stated i use irish.....

anyway - this is all hypothetical and my point is being not of any state

so taking up citezenship in another place was already pointed out - and i explained why i see that option but dont want it
thanks

You have to be a member of at least one state, it's one of your Human Rights.

Lockstep

Belfast wrote: »

I did not include rights in statues (these I call privileges) as these can be withdrawn by the Dail. rights in the Constitution can only be changed by a direct vote of the people.
privileges are like rights but can be withdrawn by the Dail.

Privileges are usually things which are granted whereas rights are unrevocable; by that definition then Constitutional rights are often revocable given their ability to be changed by the Irish people.

Ultimately, it's often up to the judiciary what rights we enjoy, based on their interpretation of the Constitution (the use of the word "In particular" in Article 40 suggests that there are other rights other than those specifically enshrined in the Constitution, as has been interpreted in things like the right to bodily integrity)

ChocolateSauce

I think citizenship can be revoked if you are a citizen of a country by means other than birth and you have done something treasonous or otherwise highly illegal. You can have it revoked if you lied on your application form. Also I may be wrong, but I think that German-American Nazi who was recently extradited to Germany from the US for war crimes had his US citizenship revoked.

Belfast

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think citizenship can be revoked if you are a citizen of a country by means other than birth and you have done something treasonous or otherwise highly illegal. You can have it revoked if you lied on your application form. Also I may be wrong, but I think that German-American Nazi who was recently extradited to Germany from the US for war crimes had his US citizenship revoked.

One of the conditions of becoming a US citizen is that you must not have worked for the government of Nazi Germany. This is probably why his citizenship was revoked.
There were some people in the 1960s who renounced their and went to Mexico.
One of them tried to return to American in the 1980s and get her citizenship back.
She was turned away.

conchubhar1

yes - but my point is if i do not want the right to be ''forced'' into being a citezen of a state

is that a fair ''right'' to have?
rights are usually good things - things you would/do agree too

simplistic

Very interesting topic here lets look at the facts and try and find the truth.Please no emotional responses.

We live on a big chunk of rock known to us as Ireland. Fact

There is a piece of paper called the constitution. Fact



This piece of paper says

ARTICLE 2
The island of Ireland entirely, along with its islands and its bordering/territorial seas, is the national territories/territory.


and the state claims:

ARTICLE 10.2
Every land and every mine, mineral, and water which belonged to the Irish Free State immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution (they) all belong to the State to the extent that they belonged to the Irish Free State at that time.



So the State claims to own the land.



Problem 1, the sate is a fiction its not real. Fact why?


Ask somebody to point to "the state" or if your in court for an offence against the state see what happens when you call the state into the witness box. So in objective reality there is no state.:eek:


So on this piece of paper called the constitution a fiction is claiming to own the land. Ohhh I get it the constitution is a contract between everybody that lives on this land to follow its guidelines therefore we all own the land.


Wait contract??? I didnt put my signature on that! And here are the elements to a valid contract :

An intention to create legal relations
Consensus ad idem (meeting of the minds including full disclosure)
Contractual capacity of both parties
Valuable consideration
Binding Signatures of both parties.

So if the constitution is a contract am I bound to it? No of course not are you bound to live in your house your granddad built?

So the question can you renounce your citizenship? I say when were you ever a citizen?