NEW ROSTERS - 48 hour week

drzhivago

Now that the ballot was passed last week has anyone heard anything in their hospitals about new rosters yet

Has nay one joined the roster committee

I saw an article in Sunday Business Post about how "challenging it was going to be" and about how the HSE were leaving it up to hospitals to continue to see the same number of patients in clinics etc despite losing over 30% of doctors hours with a higher percentage loss during clinic hours

Any of the Interns here been switched on to new rosters yet

Are any of the doctors still alive after the shock??:eek:

Ihaveanopinion

I have hear anecdotally that a number of hopsitals have admitted certain services can not be EWTD compliant.

You need a 1 in 7 rota minimum to fill all the hours. Surgical jobs/Paeds etc are often 1 in 3/4 rotas. Not enough to fill the working week.

Amnesiac_ie

I was at a meeting yesterday in one of the large university teaching hospitals in Dublin and the consultants present were refusing to draw up a EWTD compliant rota for their incoming housestaff as they felt it was impossible.

I wonder what the public reaction will be if cancellation letters for outpatients due to lack of NCHDs to man clinics start coming through letterboxes in July.

Fun and frolicks ahead.

Ihaveanopinion

I have a pain in my spleen at the thought of it

tech77

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

I have a pain in my spleen at the thought of it

Just don't expect your GP to make an outpatient's appointment for you.

Eh, stay away from A and E as well tbh. :pac:

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

I was at a meeting yesterday in one of the large university teaching hospitals in Dublin and the consultants present were refusing to draw up a EWTD compliant rota for their incoming housestaff as they felt it was impossible.

I wonder what the public reaction will be if cancellation letters for outpatients due to lack of NCHDs to man clinics start coming through letterboxes in July.

Fun and frolicks ahead.

that is pretty scary, ostrich stuff almost

Not to worry they will learn when manpower do it for them and ***k it all up

Yes the letters will flow once they realise there wont be 5 but 1 in clinic from now on, was looking at that going there is no way this clinic could continue in july or august with reduced hours and reduced docs

drzhivago

tech77 wrote: »

Just don't expect your GP to make an outpatient's appointment for you.

Eh, stay away from A and E as well tbh. :pac:

can you get a pain in the spleen???

RobFowl

drzhivago wrote: »

can you get a pain in the spleen???

No but you can certainly vent one !

Traumadoc

Who is responsible for drawing up rosters. It is not in the consultant contract AFAIK.
In some hospitals it is the SPrs but surely it should be management who create the rosters?

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Who is responsible for drawing up rosters. It is not in the consultant contract AFAIK.
In some hospitals it is the SPrs but surely it should be management who create the rosters?

would come under admin duty in consultant contract

Is not specifically mentioned in SPR contract

There should be a committee of consultant/nchd/manpower doing this

Tat was what was agreed in lRC

If hospital have not set this up they are in breach of high court agreement as LRC process was part of that

In fact i think most hospitals in breach of agreement now anyway and this may be cause of further trouble in next few days
got an email from IMO about same a short while ago
will paste here

Ihaveanopinion

Here is some food for thought:

Article 23.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
"Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment."
The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights elaborates the right to work in the context of individual freedoms and economic, social and cultural development. The Covenant also elaborates the role of the state in realising this human right. Article 6 states:
"(1) The State Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right to work, which includes the right of everyone to the opportunity to gain his living by work which he freely chooses or accepts, and will take appropriate steps to safeguard this right. (2) The steps to be taken by a State party to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include technical and vocational guidance and training programmes, policies and techniques to achieve steady economic, social and cultural development and full and productive employment under conditions safeguarding fundamental political and economic freedoms to the individual."

So by stopping doctors working past 48 hrs - is that infringing on Human Rights?

drzhivago

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

Here is some food for thought:

Article 23.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
"Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment."
The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights elaborates the right to work in the context of individual freedoms and economic, social and cultural development. The Covenant also elaborates the role of the state in realising this human right. Article 6 states:
"(1) The State Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right to work, which includes the right of everyone to the opportunity to gain his living by work which he freely chooses or accepts, and will take appropriate steps to safeguard this right. (2) The steps to be taken by a State party to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include technical and vocational guidance and training programmes, policies and techniques to achieve steady economic, social and cultural development and full and productive employment under conditions safeguarding fundamental political and economic freedoms to the individual."

So by stopping doctors working past 48 hrs - is that infringing on Human Rights?

Dont think declaration of Human rights trumps irish Employment legislation introduced on health and safety grounds

RobFowl

Genuinely interested in what rosters iterns and SHo's are being oresented with this week. Any feedback ?

Ihaveanopinion

Well yes and no - re: European law vs Human rights. Just it hasnt been challenged.

The idea behind EWTD was so that German car manufacturers wouldn't work all day and night. Wasnt specifically in mind with medical workers. As an additional aside, American medical workers are preempting a similar thing coming into the US by saying that they don't want those kinds of working hours - citing training etcetc.

If you want to work more than 48hrs, you are now forbidden by law - regardless of profession. Sounds close to tampering with fundamental enshrined rights

Traumadoc

RobFowl wrote: »

Genuinely interested in what rosters iterns and SHo's are being oresented with this week. Any feedback ?

Should know more towards the end of the month. Nothing seems to have changed yet- I think management are coming to realise the implications of this law now, I expect it will be generally ignored in many specialities.

RANIA

my dh is not on a roster rota-yet.but his new job has only 5 on the team(hmm 7 days and nights to cover in a week..),so the call rota will be a nightmare as it is,let alone with a roster.a joke.

Amnesiac_ie

NCHDs are not the only ones being bullied. The HSE have sent a nasty memo to medical manpower departments claiming medical manpower managers could be arrested if all NCHD rotas are not EWTD compliant. The HSE never gave a damn about the EWTD until the recession blew a hole in their finances and all they see it as now is a great cost cuttIng opportunity. The directive simply can't be implemented in most hospitals with current staffing numbers without a Titanic cut in services.

drzhivago

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

Well yes and no - re: European law vs Human rights. Just it hasnt been challenged.

The idea behind EWTD was so that German car manufacturers wouldn't work all day and night. Wasnt specifically in mind with medical workers. As an additional aside, American medical workers are preempting a similar thing coming into the US by saying that they don't want those kinds of working hours - citing training etcetc.

If you want to work more than 48hrs, you are now forbidden by law - regardless of profession. Sounds close to tampering with fundamental enshrined rights

I dont think that would work to be honest, will ask the attenders of the 4 Goldmines in the extended family for their opinion

Interesting concept, an individual would have to take a case and would probably have to go to EU as not going to be dealt with here, that would be very expensive for one person
cant see IMO doing that as it would be hypocritical having said they wanted hours reduced-although UNIONS have changed their positions in past

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Should know more towards the end of the month. Nothing seems to have changed yet- I think management are coming to realise the implications of this law now, I expect it will be generally ignored in many specialities.

Interesting and probably correct

so all the spin from Sean McGrath about wanting to give the lovely NCHDs time back to go dancing on the crossroads in their free time was just tosh then, he just wanted to save the money

As an aside though HSE are in breach of the High court Settlement already for 4,000 or more NCHDs and also in breach of labour court settlement

I wonder if anything will be done about that or will it be taken into account when they are considering the financial aspects later

drzhivago

RANIA wrote: »

my dh is not on a roster rota-yet.but his new job has only 5 on the team(hmm 7 days and nights to cover in a week..),so the call rota will be a nightmare as it is,let alone with a roster.a joke.

Ok so, if he is ETWD compliant his hours will come down and he will be around more (my wife would say that is not such a good thing as I seem to get in the way a lot according to her)

If new job has only 5 they cannot get below 48 hour week. The department he works for will have major staffing issues and also major service issues. they should tell some local politicians and let them stir the pot to see what will happen

On a 1/5 as it is now he probably does an average 75 hour week, this should come down which will be a good thing but will hi the family budget as well

drzhivago

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

NCHDs are not the only ones being bullied. The HSE have sent a nasty memo to medical manpower departments claiming medical manpower managers could be arrested if all NCHD rotas are not EWTD compliant. The HSE never gave a damn about the EWTD until the recession blew a hole in their finances and all they see it as now is a great cost cuttIng opportunity. The directive simply can't be implemented in most hospitals with current staffing numbers without a Titanic cut in services.

Interesting again, would be nice to see a MMM take a bullying case against HSE

drzhivago

Just wondering has any doctor met that rare species the person on a 48 hour week average roster yet

If so could they capture them and send them to Dublin Zoo, there is a reward as they are so rare.

seriously have any rosters changed at all

Has anyone had any word on roster changes

Have they set up roster committees in your hospital or your friends, seriously dont mention your own hospital as it could identify you but tell us about your mates hospital

DrIndy

You can also PM me your rosters and i can anonymise it as much as possible - hence it is not linked to your username (if it is known to the public). I will publish it as random roster A,B,C etc....

tallaght01

I have some experience of all this, having worked as an SHO in the UK when the EWTD came in over there.

It reduced our hours to 56 per week. It was a total farce. They would do crazy things like roster surgeons from 8-3 every day. Now, you could bolt at 3pm during theatre, or before you went to the ward to review your patients. But no-one did. Everyone stil stayed until 6pm. You just didn't get paid for it.

The rosters were obviously made up by people who weren't medical, as they'd roster te medics to finish at 4. The medical SHOs said that our bloods for the day don't come back from the lab until 4, and we have to act on them. HR said "the on-call medical SHO has to check tem and act on them".

You've gotta be having a laugh!!!!

But they were serious. On nightshift, you get rostered until the beginning of the ward round. So, there would be no one from the night shift on the post take ward round.

It was a joke, and it was utter utter misery. We worked dog hours, and got paid for 56 hours.

Then once a year, we had to do "monitoring". This is where you write the exact ours you do all week in a diary. There's a strong hint that you have to lie about your hours, and that's what everyone did.

I kicked up about it at a meeting, and was told I'd never work in that hospital again.

I had no commitments, so i got out of there. But I feel awful for those who can't.

The biggest factor in the demoralisation of juniors was that our consultants were too spineless to stick up for us. They towed the party line, and pretended we were working 56 hours a week. UK consultants as a group are extremely powerful as a monopoly on an essential service. But they should be ashamed of how they sold their juniors up the river.

Will the irish consultants step up to the bar and protect their juniors? I have my doubts but I would love to be proven wrong.

RANIA

actually i am wrong.dh is only 1 of 4 on the team,so 4 to cover 7 days and nights.even worse

tallaght01

wot's a dh???

sam34

tallaght01 wrote: »

wot's a dh???

internet shorthand for "darling husband"

drzhivago

The terms of the High court settlement were quite clear, one of the extended outlaws of the 4 goldmine variety was reading it in our house tonight

What happens in the Labour court was meant to be legally binding if voted on by NCHDS

The labour court recommendation is quite explicit in stating that the

"new rostered working arrangements should be implemented from 1st July 2009"

and further that maximum length of working day should be 13 hours during weekdays and 11 hours at weekend


From that perspective every hospital and every manpower manager are breaching the BINDING labour Court recommendation and by extension the high court settlement

Could Mr McGrath be obliged to go to the High court to answer questions on this
He has been saying all along this is what he wanted to reduce hours, he got a court settlement to do so and someone is now deciding that it doesnt need to be implemented

consider this
if someone went to the high court to have this implemented now what would happen next.

Chunky Monkey

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

If you want to work more than 48hrs, you are now forbidden by law - regardless of profession. Sounds close to tampering with fundamental enshrined rights

Didn't know that. How do they keep an eye on you if you have more than one job? Or would they care at all to keep an eye on it?

(sorry to deviate)

DrIndy

he's too busy screwing over the pharmacists to get back to screwing over doctors.

RobFowl

drzhivago wrote: »

Just wondering has any doctor met that rare species the person on a 48 hour week average roster yet

Any feedback. From the cosy world of GP land there seems to be no change. On a side note saw 6 ambulances lined up outside Beaumont AE yesterday, Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose !

Camelopardalis

Yep, no trollies, no chairs, no space, joyful!