City Square - Is it Enough?

JupiterKid

I've noticed on the boards here in the past year or so that many Waterford posters are very anxious for the proposed Newgate Centre to get underway, so as to increase the choice and range of shops in the city centre of Waterford. But Waterford already has an in-town shopping centre, City Square, open nigh on 20 years at this stage.

For a city of Waterford's size (50,000 population) and given the new Ferrybank Centre and indeed the other suburban shopping centres in existence, is City Square not adequate to serve the city's needs? It does have 50 shops and although admittedly it needs a major revamp to bring it up to date, perhaps if it was extended that would be enough. Maybe a new centre on the scale of Newgate would leave the city over shopped? Especially in the current economic climate?

So, do posters feel City Square is adequate for Waterford?

JohnC.

City Square is small. The units are probably too small for many tenants the city would probably like to attract. Even one of their anchor tenants, Dunnes, is located in what is considered a small space for a supermarket.

I'm not really much of a believer in making things for the "current economic climate" either. Things need to be built for the future, not the now. Newgate wouldn't be open for probably a couple of years at least, by which time I'd certainly hope we still wouldn't be in the current economic climate.

Nolanger

How do you that the new shopping centre won't end up full of pawn shops, fast food restaurants, charity shops, off licenses, citizen advice centres, Euro shops, and Lidls?

ziedth

Nolanger wrote: »

How do you that the new shopping centre won't end up full of pawn shops, fast food restaurants, charity shops, off licenses, citizen advice centres, Euro shops, and Lidls?

TBF mate, who gives a ****? I don't care if the place has 50 shops that only sell gone off pot noodles as long as it gets people into town spending money and providing employment.

I would think that having "decent" shops is only icing on the cake if you will.

I personally don't mind city square, think they have a few decent shopa n all and i don't think it will run into any serious harm if and when newgate opens.

Poor Uncle Tom

BRING IT....

the jobs are needed, the extra shop choices are needed, the extra parking is needed. I think some anchor tennants will not go to centres where other big chains already exist, and a lot of smaller shops follow some certain anchors.

The only major down side I can see is all the shopping will be limited to nodes throughout the city and suburbs. If the corporation, sorry city council, got their act together and joined the shopping nodes with purpose built public transport incorporating the town centre, it might breathe some life back into the empty streets.

Jeeees, even the sunshine isles can provide 'wally trollies' to get rides around a sprawling town for €1

old gregg

interesting topic OP.

BBM77

We need to start building attractions in the city centre or it is finished, it is as simple as that. People don’t want to drive in to the city centre spend €10 or so on parking to shop in what is still a small town standard centre. The Newgate Centre is key but tourism and cultural attractions are needed as well. Waterford needs to do a lot better with its city centre if for no other reason than to create jobs. So no City Square is not adequate.

fricatus

JupiterKid wrote: »

For a city of Waterford's size (50,000 population)

I think this phrase is key to the discussion of whether City Square is enough.

If Waterford was just another town in a major metropolitan area (say it lay between Liverpool and Manchester, or somewhere like the Thames Valley) then I would say yes, it's sufficient for our needs, because it only serves those 50,000 people in the city itself.

However there's nowhere bigger for 110 km to the west, nowhere at all bigger to the east (well, unless you count Swansea), and nowhere bigger to the north for 160 km. It's clear then, that it is (or rather should be) the main regional centre with a reach of 60-80 km.

Even in the immediate Waterford area, within a 10 km radius there are 70,000 people, and in a 25 km radius there are 125,000 people. If you go out to the 60-80 km limit, you're talking about half a million people who could potentially be attracted to shop in Waterford rather than anywhere else, when it comes to buying clothes, CDs/DVDs, high-value electrical items, etc.

Unfortunately Waterford has a long, long way to go before it can compete with many of the shopping destinations that aren't a million miles away. Never mind Cork or Dublin city centres, people will spend two hours driving to Liffey Valley or Dundrum for choice in shopping that they simply aren't getting in Waterford. Somewhere like Mahon Point is also a massive draw. Just look at the list of shops compared to what we have: www.mahonpointsc.ie

The disturbing thing is that there are much smaller towns now offering much better choice than Waterford now. Look at Newbridge: www.whitewatersc.ie - I work in Kilkenny and I hear more people going on shopping trips to bloody Newbridge than I do Waterford. There's something seriously wrong there. Clonmel now has an M&S.

Athlone is a seriously impressive town for its size, and while we're only talking about shopping here, it seems to do everything well - restaurants, hotels, leisure facilities. Athlone has less than half the population of Waterford at all radius points, yet it has some shops that we can only dream of for now. Check out www.athlonetowncentre.com

So if Waterford wants to cater only for itself, then City Square is enough, but remember that we will leak - sorry, haemorrhage - retail spend to Cork, Newbridge and Dublin, including some of our own. What Waterford needs to aim for though, is not just its own hinterland. It needs to offer a better retail experience than anywhere else not just in the south-east, but up to the fringes of Cork and Dublin.

My own view is that shopping is the no. 1 attraction anywhere. We can build plazas, cultural facilities, pedestrianise away to our hearts' content, even offer free parking, but shopping is what would entice people down here from all over the region, followed closely by good hotel/spa breaks.

People will visit Reginald's Tower, the city walls and Waterford Treasures if they've been attracted by the shopping and leisure facilities. It doesn't happen the other way around, much as we might like to think so - I'm very proud of my city, but it's hardly the Pyramids! I'm not saying we should build over our cultural heritage - quite the opposite - but we should remember that it is shopping that attracts people in.

So no, City Square is not enough - not by a long shot!

Nolanger

Quality shops are needed - no-one is going to visit the City just to buy bleedin' Pot Noodles.

echosound

Excellent post Fricatus, the sound of nails being hit on the head there.

Once some decent retailers set up shop in Waterford, in units big enough to house them properly, visitors to the town will increase with the knock-on effect of cafes, hotels, etc etc springing up to serve the increased footfall.

People don't tend come to Waterford anymore solely for the tourist attractions (Irish people don't, anyway); if we had some decent retailers and a good shopping centre along the lines of any mentioned in Fricatus' post, people would not only come for a day's shopping but perhaps make a weekend out of it, bringing more money (and therefore employment) into Waterford.

It's a sad state of affairs when not only people from the surrounding areas (south KK, South Tipp, Wexford, County Waterford) are skipping Waterford in favour of a trip to Cork/Dublin for Mahon Point/Liffey Valley, but Waterford city people are doing it too due to a complete lack of choice in the city. I can't name a single shop I "need" or "want" to visit in the centre, because the choice on offer is so dire, in fact I could go weeks without ever setting foot in the centre at all, only driving through it to get across the bridge, which is a huge pity, given that I used to love just strolling along the Quay at sunset when it was newly done up with the walkway and the Plaza, and there was a bit of life in the town.

The Newgate Centre would be a very welcome kickstart to turning Waterford back into a destination for shoppers, and if other measures were introduced to encourage spending visitors to the city, such as cheaper parking/first hr free parking, better public transport, cheaper rates and rents for businesses in the centre, etc, we might manage to break the slide into unemployment blackspot/total irrelevance.

Other measures like clamping down in anti-social behaviour might also open up the city centre once again in the late evening - I've seen some tourists on the walking tour with Jack Burchall, but I don't see them strolling round the centre on their own after 7pm - a) because there's nothing to do or see, no cafes/nightlife to speak of during the week, only empty units and closed shops and b) I am sure they don't fancy getting jumped on by some skangers out for some trouble.

OK I got a bit off topic there, but IMO no, City Square is not enough - the units are too small for the big-brand retailers, and it's gone very grubby looking over the years. Roll on developments that might breathe some life back into the dying centre.

deisemum

No City Square is not an adequate shopping centre.

Whenever I want to go shopping I normally drive to Cork or get the train to Dublin and sometimes make a weekend break of it when I go with my friends.

ziedth

Nolanger wrote: »

Quality shops are needed - no-one is going to visit the City just to buy bleedin' Pot Noodles.

Your missing my point man, obviously they are not all going to be selling pot noodles what i was getting at was really the important thing for people is development> work> spending money> more/keeping businesses>work etc.

Now designer stores and buying **** for me as far as i'm concerned isn't the most important thing. Work and getting people here is. If newgate can in the long term do this regardless of whats in there do this then the shops imo don't matter.

Nolanger

I don't understand your argument - maybe you mean just Waterford people visiting the new centre? Thought the whole point was to attract people in the whole SE to Waterford City who visit places like Athlone? The new centre would need some upmarket shops to do this?

ziedth

ya tbf i haven't put this across very well. What i was getting at is thay As someome from waterford my chief concern would be creating long term employment and not nice places to shop. You said in your first post what if its full of offies/lidl/pawn shops i'm saying i don't really care what its full of provided people are working and its drawing people into the city.

Now i know tht more then likely to draw people in we'll have to have decent places to shop but i'm just saying that as a shopper if you will i don't care whats there.

Jayeire

In all honesty I seriously doubt that the developers of Newgate SC have done so in order for pound and pawn shops to move in.......

As with all major shopping centres; Newgate will aim to attract one or two anchor tenants and then a number of well-known retailers. I'd be shocked if we saw one of these said pound shops in such an upmarket development.

Aside from that nonsense, no, city square is quite obviously not enough. I found myself traveling to Clonmel the day before yesterday to do my shopping in M&S. Now, pray tell, if Waterford had a Marks and Spencers... would I travel to Clonmel. Sincerely doubt it.

We have an extremely sparse array of shops in Waterford, and as such I've never heard of a city becoming "over-shopped". If anything we are currently "under-shopped". City Square, at the time, was adequate for Waterford but now; it simply isn't enough....current climate or not..

stars-icons

I'm not sure that Waterford is big enough to have these retail outlets scattered around the centre. Waterford centre needs better shops and then people will go there. If all the more well known shops open on the outskirts of Waterford then it will continue to look ominus for those in the centre. To put it another way, every time people take a trip to TK Max or Next - which are essentially city centre shops in any other town I've been to - they aren't spending money in Waterford City Centre and they aren't filling up the streets making Waterford the lively place it was not so long ago.

I'd argue other neighbouring towns such as Cork and Wexford have an advantage over Waterford as we stand because they have a variety of strong retail outlets in the centre of their towns.

I think Waterford town planners need to ensure Waterford maintains a strong centre. Waterford doesn't have a large population and I'm not sure it can sustain an out of town shopping centre as well as the one it already has.

merlante

stars-icons wrote: »

I'm not sure that Waterford is big enough to have these retail outlets scattered around the centre. Waterford centre needs better shops and then people will go there. If all the more well known shops open on the outskirts of Waterford then it will continue to look ominus for those in the centre. To put it another way, every time people take a trip to TK Max or Next - which are essentially city centre shops in any other town I've been to - they aren't spending money in Waterford City Centre and they aren't filling up the streets making Waterford the lively place it was not so long ago.

I'd argue other neighbouring towns such as Cork and Wexford have an advantage over Waterford as we stand because they have a variety of strong retail outlets in the centre of their towns.

I think Waterford town planners need to ensure Waterford maintains a strong centre. Waterford doesn't have a large population and I'm not sure it can sustain an out of town shopping centre as well as the one it already has.

I think that the Newgate centre will firmly return the centre to pre-eminence. There is still not enough on the outskirts to cause permanent damage. The council have worked actively to reduce out of town comparison shopping by denying large developments, amongst which an out of town M&S, and have imposed conditions about what can be sold in TKMaxx, which is why there is currently a dispute between the council and TKMaxx. Some developments on the ORR and in Ferrybank which have been built look unlikely to be filled in the short term, and were built as a result of over-exuberance at the tail end of the boom.

Waterford has a modest population of 50,000, but when the nearby towns of Tramore (10,000), New Ross (8,000) and Carrick-On-Suir (6,000), and the surrounding population, is taken into account, Waterford's immediate catchment is actually around the same size as Galway's. The south east in general is populous and relatively underdeveloped. In Waterford in particular, no new retail space was added to the centre (and not all that much outside of the centre) was added during the boom, making it unique among major irish centres. Waterford is the only major urban area that you could honestly say is under developed, rather than over developed.

The Newgate centre would flick a switch on the attractiveness of Waterford as a regional shopping destination, a role which it doesn't really play currently, but which uniquely in the south east, it has the scale to play. I see the Newgate centre as a no-brainer, a major retail development which still makes great sense even in this depressed climate. Even with the Newgate in situ, Waterford will still not be as developed as centres such as Galway and Limerick, which are arguably over-developed. Furthermore, Waterford will have relatively centralised shopping compared will the other cities, with the possible exception of Dublin, which has a very strong core and a high population density. Certainly, so far, comparison shopping offers on the outskirts have been piecemeal, and given the council's stance and the current economic client, this will probably remain the case.

I think that Waterford will be one of the best places to shop in the country after Newgate is built, because you'll have 80-90% of what you have in Dublin between Newgate, city square and the city centre streets all within a very manageable walk.

ziedth

merlante wrote: »

I think that the Newgate centre will firmly return the centre to pre-eminence. There is still not enough on the outskirts to cause permanent damage. The council have worked actively to reduce out of town comparison shopping by denying large developments, amongst which an out of town M&S, and have imposed conditions about what can be sold in TKMaxx, which is why there is currently a dispute between the council and TKMaxx. Some developments on the ORR and in Ferrybank which have been built look unlikely to be filled in the short term, and were built as a result of over-exuberance at the tail end of the boom.

Waterford has a modest population of 50,000, but when the nearby towns of Tramore (10,000), New Ross (8,000) and Carrick-On-Suir (6,000), and the surrounding population, is taken into account, Waterford's immediate catchment is actually around the same size as Galway's. The south east in general is populous and relatively underdeveloped. In Waterford in particular, no new retail space was added to the centre (and not all that much outside of the centre) was added during the boom, making it unique among major irish centres. Waterford is the only major urban area that you could honestly say is under developed, rather than over developed.

The Newgate centre would flick a switch on the attractiveness of Waterford as a regional shopping destination, a role which it doesn't really play currently, but which uniquely in the south east, it has the scale to play. I see the Newgate centre as a no-brainer, a major retail development which still makes great sense even in this depressed climate. Even with the Newgate in situ, Waterford will still not be as developed as centres such as Galway and Limerick, which are arguably over-developed. Furthermore, Waterford will have relatively centralised shopping compared will the other cities, with the possible exception of Dublin, which has a very strong core and a high population density. Certainly, so far, comparison shopping offers on the outskirts have been piecemeal, and given the council's stance and the current economic client, this will probably remain the case.

I think that Waterford will be one of the best places to shop in the country after Newgate is built, because you'll have 80-90% of what you have in Dublin between Newgate, city square and the city centre streets all within a very manageable walk.

Yet again well said, I was wondering where your contribution was