DCM pace after poor half marathon

Bobby04

Hi,

I'm hoping for some useful advice and direction from some of the experienced marathoners here. I'm training for DCM 2009 which will hopefully be my first marathon. I've ran a 46:30 10K in April, and a 1:47 half yesterday. I had thought/hoped I might ultimately manage a 3:30 DCM in October, and with that in mind, was hoping to at least go under 1:45 yesterday. I was on target for that time until about 11.5 miles when the wheels just fell off and I slipped a full 2 minutes off my pace in the last mile (having to walk 3 times). I'm very disappointed to have discovered I can't even manage PMP for 13 miles at this stage. As furhter background, I'm up to 19mile LSR at around 9min pace now, and doing about 40miles total training per week. I know there is still a while to go before the big day, but I just lost alot of motivation yesterday!
So, can I still achieve a 3:30 in October, or am I delusional? If you think it's still managable, what should I concentrate on in training? More tempo runs, or prehaps more PMP milage?

Woddle

Bobby04 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm hoping for some useful advice and direction from some of the experienced marathoners here. I'm training for DCM 2009 which will hopefully be my first marathon. I've ran a 46:30 10K in April, and a 1:47 half yesterday. I had thought/hoped I might ultimately manage a 3:30 DCM in October, and with that in mind, was hoping to at least go under 1:45 yesterday. I was on target for that time until about 11.5 miles when the wheels just fell off and I slipped a full 2 minutes off my pace in the last mile (having to walk 3 times). I'm very disappointed to have discovered I can't even manage PMP for 13 miles at this stage. As furhter background, I'm up to 19mile LSR at around 9min pace now, and doing about 40miles total training per week. I know there is still a while to go before the big day, but I just lost alot of motivation yesterday!
So, can I still achieve a 3:30 in October, or am I delusional? If you think it's still managable, what should I concentrate on in training? More tempo runs, or prehaps more PMP milage?

Hi Bobby yesterday was warm and running on sand doesn't help so don't be too hard on yourself. Krusty gave some good advice last week about know one can tell you what time to aim for. So be optimistic and keep your sub 3'30in mind. Your times are a little slower than what mine were going into DM 08 and I ran 3'37 but my training was hit and miss then. So what I would be telling you is yes with a good training plan (in which you keep to) why not 3'30

Stupid_Private

You've loads of time to get there. Stick with 3.30 as the goal, don't let one race put you off. I think you're running too far on your long runs at the moment - with 17 weeks to go there's no need to be up at 19 miles, you'll be mentally drained by the time the marathon comes about. That's the type of distance you should be hitting in the last few weeks beforehand. Lastly, your long run shouldn't account for almost 50% of your weekly mileage. Spread things out a bit.

How Strange

Bobby04, I've done a few half marathons including the one in the park which is extremely hilly and yesterday's was the toughest considering the heat even though the route was mostly flat. I crashed and burned around 11 miles and it was pure determination that got me to the finish line. My pace was erratic for the last 2-3 miles and the soft sand just killed me. I expected to finish quicker and from my pace for the first half I really thought I was going to have a great time but it didn't work out that way.

You have lots of time for training between now and the marathon. Some people only start their training now. Don't let yesterday be an indication of your marathon time as the DCM is in October so the conditions will be totally different.

The half in September would be a much better indication of your marathon time as you'll have most of your training done at that stage and you'll have a marathon pace established.

Good luck with the training!

Ger the man

I wouldnt get too bothered about times if its your first marathon. Im doing the DCM myself for the first time and cant wait for the big day. Just enjoy it.

Woddle

Ger the man wrote: »

I wouldnt get too bothered about times if its your first marathon. Im doing the DCM myself for the first time and cant wait for the big day. Just enjoy it.

I agree with this to a point but I think its easier said than done and when your training so hard, why not have a time goal.

Bobby04

Thanks to all for the encouragement.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

You've loads of time to get there. Stick with 3.30 as the goal, don't let one race put you off. I think you're running too far on your long runs at the moment - with 17 weeks to go there's no need to be up at 19 miles, you'll be mentally drained by the time the marathon comes about. That's the type of distance you should be hitting in the last few weeks beforehand. Lastly, your long run shouldn't account for almost 50% of your weekly mileage. Spread things out a bit.

LSR got as far as 19 already mainly because I had been considering a full sooner than DCM. I gave up on that idea before the weekend though, and clearly after yesterdays performance that was a good idea! I think I'll be slightly more focused on PMP mileage for the next few weeks rather than pushing the LSR.
Interesting though that you think the LSR should not account for almost 50% of weekly milage. I thought from reading training plans that this was quite a good guideline??

--amadeus--

Are you following a structured training plan? If not then I *strongly* advise you to.

hunnymonster

As Amadeus suggests, a structured plan is the way to go. Don't give up on the 3:30 yet. Continue to plan for it and reassess closer to October. Best of luck with your first marathon. It will be a very special race.

Stupid_Private

Bobby04 wrote: »

Thanks to all for the encouragement.



LSR got as far as 19 already mainly because I had been considering a full sooner than DCM. I gave up on that idea before the weekend though, and clearly after yesterdays performance that was a good idea! I think I'll be slightly more focused on PMP mileage for the next few weeks rather than pushing the LSR.
Interesting though that you think the LSR should not account for almost 50% of weekly milage. I thought from reading training plans that this was quite a good guideline??

I wouldn't worry about your pace for the moment. Getting out there running frequently will help you no end. I'd cut the long run back to around 12-15 miles and get out running 4 other times a week (about 6 miles each time). You'll still be doing the same mileage as you are now but when the time comes to increase your training somewhat you only have to tack miles onto existing training sessions rather than adding extra days to your routine.

Bobby04

I am indeed following a plan which is based around a HH plan, but slightly reorganised to suit family etc. I'm running 5 days a week, with a LSR at the weekend, and some sort of speed work mid week eg. 1 mile intervals.
I'm just thinking since yesterday that I need to run more miles at PMP?
I'll cut the LSR for a while again as suggested. Thanks all.

hunnymonster

Have faith in the plan. Overtraining may knock you out of the event completely

misty floyd

Bobby04 wrote: »

I'm just thinking since yesterday that I need to run more miles at PMP?

Sorry, whats PMP? Thanks.

--amadeus--

Planned Marathon Pace. Highly rated by the likes of P&D, mid - long runs of up to 16 miles at your planned race pace.

Personally I consider them (along with Peckhams "Predator" runs) to be a key session, great for confidence and speed endurance.

Oryx

I cant advise on marathon training as im planning DCM as my first, and getting all the help i can here. I just think you shouldnt let yesterday put you off at all. Like How Strange i went out great guns for the first ten k, but was a mess coming back. I didnt allow for the effect of the heat, thats all. Id planned a 1.40 and couldnt do it. Chalk it up to a lesson in pacing your run in heat, thats all. Just one less than perfect run, and from the comments im hearing from others on the run, it was a common experience on the day!

misty floyd

Yeah I think running on that sand has to take a lot of time out also. Some sand is being displaced every step you make.......waste of energy into the sand rather than pushing you forward. Coupled with the heat, you could take, maybe 4-5 mins off that (total guess).

17 weeks until DCM. Loads of time.

chinguetti

I think you might be best to revise your training plan and do a couple of 5 kms/5 miles/10 kms races. Did my first marathon this year in Cork and managed 3:30 (my plan was a 4 hour one) and i'm guessing the weather in clontarf was something round 24 degrees which is was on that day. I was in Cork where it was raining all day.

The further distance i trained prior to the marathon was 22 and then a 19. Did a good few 15 and 17 mile runs. Just wondering if you paced yourself right as well.

Plenty time though to Dublin and it will be cooler in October and you'll have no sand to run through so that will help improve your time.

tergat

Bobby04 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm hoping for some useful advice and direction from some of the experienced marathoners here. I'm training for DCM 2009 which will hopefully be my first marathon. I've ran a 46:30 10K in April, and a 1:47 half yesterday. I had thought/hoped I might ultimately manage a 3:30 DCM in October, and with that in mind, was hoping to at least go under 1:45 yesterday. I was on target for that time until about 11.5 miles when the wheels just fell off and I slipped a full 2 minutes off my pace in the last mile (having to walk 3 times). I'm very disappointed to have discovered I can't even manage PMP for 13 miles at this stage. As furhter background, I'm up to 19mile LSR at around 9min pace now, and doing about 40miles total training per week. I know there is still a while to go before the big day, but I just lost alot of motivation yesterday!
So, can I still achieve a 3:30 in October, or am I delusional? If you think it's still managable, what should I concentrate on in training? More tempo runs, or prehaps more PMP milage?

Bobby04,

Some thoughts below on Marathon training, I have posted some of this before:

Whenever you prepare for the marathon, you need to do workouts that last a long time, twice per week (Wed & Sun). If you have a history of injuries or breaking down easily that may mean you should do only One Long (Big) Workout per week. However, most runners need to run shorter, slower runs between the Big Workouts, this makes all the difference in the world. Runners will feel good doing Big Workouts because they aren’t running too much distance work between each Big Workout. That is, they are using a bigger variance between the important (key) workouts and the regular, every day, runs. For example, a club runner using a different training program might be running 10 milers every day between harder workouts but would be better to run just 6-7miles between key workouts.

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Big (Long) Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key!

Big workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Big” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Failing to do well in a marathon typically has one of two reasons. The first is due to tapering too early and not having sufficient endurance to last the event duration. The second is due to sore legs. If you have sore legs in the first 10 miles or your legs are stiff and you are laboring, it probably due to excessive training: too much, too hard, too long, for too many weeks. If you do fail to perform well, ask yourself which one of the two is the cause, and learn from your mistakes so that next time you will conquer the beast!

I think you should start doing two Big Workouts per week - those are the only fast days you should do! One of the days run half-marathon paced pickups or reps (about 25-30 minutes worth is good for you) and the other day (on the weekend) do a long run with marathon pace or Tempo paced pickups or steady states included. I recommend about 30-60 minutes of MP or Tempo running during the longer Big Workout (you should do it in the morning, first thing, just like you'd do a marathon race). The other days run 40-60 mins, nice and slow.

Sample Workouts:
2-4 miles warmup, then choose one of the following:
- 3 x 2-4 miles @ AT pace, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k pace, jog 100
- 3-4 x 1.5-3 miles @ MP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
- 3-4 x 1.5-2 miles @ HMP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100m @ 5k, jog 100
- 4-6 x .75-1.0 miles at @ 10K pace, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
* Conclude the workout with 2-4 miles at an easy pace.

AT pace is your Long Tempo pace. To make things simple, just add 37 seconds per km or 1 minute per mile to your 3k / 2-mile race-pace. Let's say you can run 3km in 10 minutes in a race, now. That's 3:20 seconds per km. Add 37 seconds per km to that and use that pace in your training at AT or LT pace. So, LT (AT) is 3:57/km).

Keep this training consistant and you will find a big improvement in your running.

Tergat

plodder

I was hoping for a 3:30 in Dublin this year, but have found the heat on my long runs very hard to handle the last few weeks, and pace has suffered as a result.

But that is very interesting advice Tergat. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

osnola ibax

I know I haven't been posting a long time but could I suggest that mr tergats post be saved as a silver thread / biki or something, I have bookmarked it anyway

Bobby04

@Tergat

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply and especially to detail a few sample workouts for me, I'm honoured

I thought I got my pacing quite good on the day, starting slowly and by about mile 3 just clicking at a comfortable 7:50ish pace. Everything was going well until about 1.5miles to go, when suddenly I had nothing left (the wall??).
I seriously thought I needed to do more PMP miles in training and hence this thread to seek advice. I've got some direction now, and renewed confidence, so thanks to all, and hopefully I can benefit from some of the wonderful advice here.

Bobby04

tergat wrote: »

Bobby04,


Sample Workouts:
2-4 miles warmup, then choose one of the following:
- 3 x 2-4 miles @ AT pace, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k pace, jog 100
- 3-4 x 1.5-3 miles @ MP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
- 3-4 x 1.5-2 miles @ HMP, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100m @ 5k, jog 100
- 4-6 x .75-1.0 miles at @ 10K pace, jog 2 minutes between, then 6 x 100 @ 5k, jog 100
* Conclude the workout with 2-4 miles at an easy pace.

Please excuse my ignorance but could someone kindly explain the science behind the 100m sprints at the end of these workouts?

tergat

Bobby04 wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance but could someone kindly explain the science behind the 100m sprints at the end of these workouts?

Bobby04,

Theres no big secret as such with using the strides at the end of the workout, its simply to keep in touch with speed (work the fast twitch fibres) and to also get the body used to moving a bit faster when fatigued. These are relaxed strides NOT sprints, be careful not to mix up both.

When you do long workouts as described above your legs will feel feel heavy at the end (just like that 20 mile point in Marathon), so doing a few strides at the end helps to wake them up so to speak.

Tergat

shels4ever

tergat wrote: »

Bobby04,

Theres no big secret as such with using the strides at the end of the workout, its simply to keep in touch with speed (work the fast twitch fibres) and to also get the body used to moving a bit faster when fatigued. These are relaxed strides NOT sprints, be careful not to mix up both.

When you do long workouts as described above your legs will feel feel heavy at the end (just like that 20 mile point in Marathon), so doing a few strides at the end helps to wake them up so to speak.

Tergat

Just wondered what your view is on progression runs or what ever people call them, been reading up on a few things and have tried them a couple of times over 10 miles with the first 5 slowish and then increasing pace over the latter stages, finishing at about 5mile or 10k pace for the last mile.?

tergat

shels4ever wrote: »

Just wondered what your view is on progression runs or what ever people call them, been reading up on a few things and have tried them a couple of times over 10 miles with the first 5 slowish and then increasing pace over the latter stages, finishing at about 5mile or 10k pace for the last mile.?

shels4ever,

Progression runs are a great training tool, the key is to keep them controlled and not overdo the pace especially at the end. They can be done over any distance from 5+ miles and you work key training zones without realising it at times. Great aerobic benefit and also great for concentation etc.

The only problem with these is getting the pace correct and not overdoing it early in the run. You really have to go by feel on these and keep it relaxed, gradually increasing the pace but finishing like you could run for another 10-20mins at the particular pace.

Tergat

shels4ever

tergat wrote: »

shels4ever,

Progression runs are a great training tool, the key is to keep them controlled and not overdo the pace especially at the end. They can be done over any distance from 5+ miles and you work key training zones without realising it at times. Great aerobic benefit and also great for concentation etc.

The only problem with these is getting the pace correct and not overdoing it early in the run. You really have to go by feel on these and keep it relaxed, gradually increasing the pace but finishing like you could run for another 10-20mins at the particular pace.

Tergat

thanks, Its a run I really enjoy doing so its a plus to know it helps:) . I'd agree about pacing its easy to get it run i've done a few of them in the past and took maybe 4-5 times of getting pace wrong , to now having a better idea of pace . Had some info about John ngugi doing these types of runs too, I think he even finished extra fast over the last 800m , Can't seem to find the info now

Bobby04

I've been working hard for the past few weeks on long intervals and tempo runs, and have felt much stronger running at PMP lately. So in an attempt to boost confidence and motivation, I hooked up with a good runner this morning to "race" 13.1 miles. We managed to complete it in 1:42.12 which I am well pleased with. This was over a very hilly route, and we even managed to finish very strong, covering the last full mile in 6:54! And we did another mile after to cool down. So I would go so far as to say that a 3:30 DCM is back on based on that?

tunguska

Bobby04 wrote: »

I've been working hard for the past few weeks on long intervals and tempo runs, and have felt much stronger running at PMP lately. So in an attempt to boost confidence and motivation, I hooked up with a good runner this morning to "race" 13.1 miles. We managed to complete it in 1:42.12 which I am well pleased with. This was over a very hilly route, and we even managed to finish very strong, covering the last full mile in 6:54! And we did another mile after to cool down. So I would go so far as to say that a 3:30 DCM is back on based on that?

A 3:30 is definitely on Bobby, dont worry too much about that Clontarf half marathon. I did that race myself and I shouldve done a sub 1:20, instead I did a 1:25. I was disappointed at first but then I realised that it was baking hot that day plus the running on the sand slowed things down a lot. So I wouldnt use that race as a guide to how you'll do in the marathon. Are you doing the Frank duffy race next saturday? That race will tell you a lot, if you are running it. Plus of course the Half marathon in september will tell you lots.
I ran the Dublin marathon last year in 3:02. But in the half marathon one month before that I did a 1:26 and I was wasted. It knocked the stuffin' out of me physically and it knocked my confidence. I was worried about how I was going to run the DCM in any kind of decent time (or even finish it)if I was struggling in a half marathon. But like I said I ran a 3:02 on the day. Im not saying this to promote myself or blow my own trumpet, Im saying it to let you know that on the day youre capable of amazing things, you just have to be a little bit brave and go for it and not let previous results hold you back or restrict you.

Bobby04

Thanks tunguska. Interesting and encouraging comments. I haven't signed up yet for any race before DCM as I basically want to stick to my training plan.

tunguska

Bobby04 wrote: »

Thanks tunguska. Interesting and encouraging comments. I haven't signed up yet for any race before DCM as I basically want to stick to my training plan.

I understand that you have a training schedule and a program to stick to and thats your bread and butter in terms of marathon training. However the dublin half marathon on the 26th september(1 month before DCM)is a race that could help you no end. If you do this race you'll learn a lot about how you'll do in the full marathon. I cant tell you exactly what you'll learn specifically because thats something only you can find out. I just know that every race I do I learn more and more and this specific race last year was probably the most important bit of training I did for the DCM.
Like I said I understand you have your program to stick to but maybe consider running this race because I guarantee you'll learn lots that could only help you achieve your goals.

Bobby04

tunguska wrote: »

I understand that you have a training schedule and a program to stick to and thats your bread and butter in terms of marathon training. However the dublin half marathon on the 26th september(1 month before DCM)is a race that could help you no end. If you do this race you'll learn a lot about how you'll do in the full marathon. I cant tell you exactly what you'll learn specifically because thats something only you can find out. I just know that every race I do I learn more and more and this specific race last year was probably the most important bit of training I did for the DCM.
Like I said I understand you have your program to stick to but maybe consider running this race because I guarantee you'll learn lots that could only help you achieve your goals.

Hmmm... You really have me thinking now! Thanks for the advice.

aero2k

tunguska wrote: »

I cant tell you exactly what you'll learn specifically because thats something only you can find out.....I guarantee you'll learn lots that could only help you achieve your goals.

My concern is that I'll learn that 4 weeks is not enough to recover from a 1/2 marathon at full belt. (ok 4 weeks is enough to recover, but I'd have to miss a hard session or two which might impact my marathon). Wish I knew for sure!

Bobby04

aero2k wrote: »

My concern is that I'll learn that 4 weeks is not enough to recover from a 1/2 marathon at full belt. (ok 4 weeks is enough to recover, but I'd have to miss a hard session or two which might impact my marathon). Wish I knew for sure!

My concern is similar - I know some of my planned hard sessions, namely interval sessions on the preceding and following Wednesdays would be affected if I ran a half on that Saturday. So I'm also unsure which is more beneficial; stick to the plan or curtail somewhat at least 2 interval sessions in lieu of a good session on the Saturday of the race. This partly my reason for trying to simulate a half race in my training this past weekend to find out where I'm at with increased fitness, but at a time that's not so critical to my training plan. Any and all learned advice appreciated!

tunguska

Bobby04 wrote: »

My concern is similar - I know some of my planned hard sessions, namely interval sessions on the preceding and following Wednesdays would be affected if I ran a half on that Saturday. So I'm also unsure which is more beneficial; stick to the plan or curtail somewhat at least 2 interval sessions in lieu of a good session on the Saturday of the race. This partly my reason for trying to simulate a half race in my training this past weekend to find out where I'm at with increased fitness, but at a time that's not so critical to my training plan. Any and all learned advice appreciated!

Peronally I think race experience is more valuable than a training session or two. Dont get me wrong, training is obviously important and sticking to a program is essential in marathon preparation. I just think races are a goldmine in terms of learning and also physical conditioning. In a race you'll push yourself a lot harder than you would in a training session but you also mentally prepare yourself for the big event, you gain confidence.

Of course its different strokes for different folks and nobody can say whats right for you or what you should and shouldnt do. After all you know yourself better than anybody else.