Standard of CAP 2 exams

Mr.C Accountant

Hi everyone, I'm new to this boards thing and this is my first post on this forum. I was intrigued about the posts i have read on this accountancy forum.



I find particular interesting the Post about the difficulty of the cap 2 exam. I personally think that it is a good idea that the CAP 2 exams are very difficult, it really is a good test to set apart the good candidates .



If you compare the new chartered accountancy qualification with that of other professional qualifications such as the Tax qualification and the CFA (chartered Financial Analyst) the pass rates are usually below 50% for these exams.



In my personal opinion, this is a good thing because those Qualifications are extremely well respected abroad. People have an inherent assumption that if you have the tax qualification or CFA qualification is that your a smart guy. However with the old accountancy ACA syllabus, the stand rad was set too low. The large number to pass rates and high numbers qualifying have reduced the quality and prestige the ACA in Ireland commands.



In other countries such as England and Pakistan , just to name a few the ACA qualification is a lot harder to pass. To pass the English ACA one has to go to most of the lectures and study many evenings before study leave to study the syllabus. In Ireland very few attend lectures, or let alone do any study till study leave and expect to pass all subjects within the 6-8 weeks period given.



I find this was the case with most people in the prof threes and about 2/3 ended up passing. I'm glad the institute has raised the bar quite a bit, because by the way things were going, the Irish ACA would mean absolutely nothing when compared to the ACA's of different countries.



I also think its good that the ICAI has coped on to itself and has increased the standard of the new syllabus as this will mean that the irish CA is very difficult and those who obtain it, are very very smart!

crapmanjoe

All valid points but i think your post could have being timed better.

I know and work with lots of people who are completely freaking out about the exams.

Plus the exams are'nt even finished yet!

My own 2 cents is that I did Prof 3 last year so delighed to have dodged the Cap 2 bullet

Mr.C Accountant

crapmanjoe wrote: »

All valid points but i think your post could have being timed better.

I know and work with lots of people who are completely freaking out about the exams.

Plus the exams are'nt even finished yet!

My own 2 cents is that I did Prof 3 last year so delighed to have dodged the Cap 2 bullet

take my quote off ur right its unfaor at this moment

prinz

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

take my quote off ur right its unfaor at this moment

Having just done CAP2, feel free to post whatever it is you want to post... I'm interested.

eoferrall

I would also be interested to see what you were saying - plus exams are over now...for better or for worse!

prinz

Spoken like someone already qualified and now is happy to shut the door behind. Thanks for that.. it's attitudes like this that have completely put me off entering accountancy as a profession either way.

I went to the vast majority of lectures, did a large amount of studying over the year - which we had to due to the continuous assessments and yet still have difficulties in each paper, and apparently to no avail.

The problem is sample papers aside the only reference we had were Prof 3's....... and as it turned out they happened to be IMO of a lower standard. If the Institute suddenly wants to raise the bar it should be done little by little, year on year. Not landing it on us out of the blue. They might as well have kept the Prof3's and just raised the pass mark from 50 to 70. How would that have gone down with the students?

The issues with CAP2 weren't confined to the actual standard of knowledge required, but it was also time issues, the way questions were phrased - vague, not connected to the main body of the question, breakdown of marks not identified, what was required not actually laid out etc.

Mr.C Accountant

prinz wrote: »

Spoken like someone already qualified and now is happy to shut the door behind. Thanks for that.. it's attitudes like this that have completely put me off entering accountancy as a profession either way.

I went to the vast majority of lectures, did a large amount of studying over the year - which we had to due to the continuous assessments and yet still have difficulties in each paper, and apparently to no avail.

The problem is sample papers aside the only reference we had were Prof 3's....... and as it turned out they happened to be IMO of a lower standard. If the Institute suddenly wants to raise the bar it should be done little by little, year on year. Not landing it on us out of the blue. They might as well have kept the Prof3's and just raised the pass mark from 50 to 70. How would that have gone down with the students?

The issues with CAP2 weren't confined to the actual standard of knowledge required, but it was also time issues, the way questions were phrased - vague, not connected to the main body of the question, breakdown of marks not identified, what was required not actually laid out etc.

Ok i see what you mean, now imagine you qualfied and done got your ACA Qualifaction, you have worked hard, attended lectures, worked in audit and have done your dues as they call it!!! Your qualfied and now after your hard work u want to reap your rewards, possible 50k, Finacial contoller postion , secure job and good promotion oppurtunties. But the problem is that there are too many people, there are 500 finincail controller posistions but there are over 2,000 qualifed accountants chasing these jobs. U apply and dont even got interview, u say to yourself, what the crap is going on??

This is exactly what is going to happen unless the restrctions begin to be placed, and unfortunately , people like yourself who are doing the new syllabus are unfortunately in the firing line!!

I think u would feel the same if u were a fully qualified accountant that the less CA the better, becasue there is less competition!!! U dont have to admit it but i think thats how most people would feel,

Hanley

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

Ok i see what you mean, now imagine you qualfied and done got your ACA Qualifaction, you have worked hard, attended lectures, worked in audit and have done your dues as they call it!!! Your qualfied and now after your hard work u want to reap your rewards, possible 50k, Finacial contoller postion , secure job and good promotion oppurtunties. But the problem is that there are too many people, there are 500 finincail controller posistions but there are over 2,000 qualifed accountants chasing these jobs. U apply and dont even got interview, u say to yourself, what the crap is going on??

This is exactly what is going to happen unless the restrctions begin to be placed, and unfortunately , people like yourself who are doing the new syllabus are unfortunately in the firing line!!

I think u would feel the same if u were a fully qualified accountant that the less CA the better, becasue there is less competition!!! U dont have to admit it but i think thats how most people would feel,

Just to clarify... you did your ACA when it was easier?

schumacher

prinz wrote: »

Spoken like someone already qualified and now is happy to shut the door behind. Thanks for that.. it's attitudes like this that have completely put me off entering accountancy as a profession either way.

The OP is just trying to suggest a way to keep numbers out of accounting. That will be of benefit for everyone in the industry including you once you qualify. I am just about to enter into a training contract and im all in favour of really hard exams to keep the standard up so we can get paid well and find jobs. Nothing is worse than oversupply.

N.Hobbit

schumacher wrote: »

I am just about to enter into a training contract and im all in favour of really hard exams to keep the standard up so we can get paid well and find jobs. Nothing is worse than oversupply.

Oversupply is definately a problem we'll have to face but let us know if you're in favour of "really hard exams" after a few 60-70 hour weeks when the notion of study gets really really vile:o

schumacher

N.Hobbit wrote: »

Oversupply is definately a problem we'll have to face but let us know if you're in favour of "really hard exams" after a few 60-70 hour weeks when the notion of study gets really really vile:o

I knew I would get a remark like that.:p I am in favour of them to stop oversupply and stop the qualification becoming useless. I believe in hard work and if that means studying hard and working hard for a few years to get extra at the end, well Im in favour of it. It does nobody any good to have a peice of paper thats considered to be useless.

slicus ricus

schumacher wrote: »

I knew I would get a remark like that.:p I am in favour of them to stop oversupply and stop the qualification becoming useless. I believe in hard work and if that means studying hard and working hard for a few years to get extra at the end, well Im in favour of it. It does nobody any good to have a peice of paper thats considered to be useless.

Come back here in a year and say that when you've worked your a$s off for your exams and are still on tenderhooks waiting for your results because you're not sure if you've passed due to the difficulty of the exams that you've just gone through!

Mr C Accountant, from the sounds of it you're qualified, which means you were able to compensate and had a syllabus that is easier than the current one. I'm not knocking it (afterall you're qualified and that is a great achievement) but it's easy to say make them harder when you don't have to do them yourself. I can see your point about the oversupply but that's the industry's fault and is certainly not the fault of any of the students sitting the ACAs at the moment. So why should the current batch of students have to suffer for a problem that has been caused by the industry?

schumacher

slicus ricus wrote: »

Come back here in a year and say that when you've worked your a$s off for your exams and are still on tenderhooks waiting for your results because you're not sure if you've passed due to the difficulty of the exams that you've just gone through!

Mr C Accountant, from the sounds of it you're qualified, which means you were able to compensate and had a syllabus that is easier than the current one. I'm not knocking it (afterall you're qualified and that is a great achievement) but it's easy to say make them harder when you don't have to do them yourself. I can see your point about the oversupply but that's the industry's fault and is certainly not the fault of any of the students sitting the ACAs at the moment. So why should the current batch of students have to suffer for a problem that has been caused by the industry?

Well hopefully I will be back in a year saying that.:p I still believe its the only way to go forward by making the exams harder. I will probably get loads of comments like yours saying say that in a year but just because some people are not able to pass exams( im not saying you or anyone else on the forum) doesnt mean others arent. The difficulty of the exams now will also protect you when you do qualify. Even if people have to repeat once they become qualified and the numbers qualifying each year become less you will work in a better industry. Its for the good of everyone that the exams become harder. It just comes down to motivation to study and intelligence to pass the exams to see who will become qualified.

With reagrd to your comment to Mr. C Accountant hes just suggesting a way to reduce oversupply. Its not fair that current and future ACA students have to sit harder exams but in life nothing is really fair.

smcgiff

schumacher wrote: »

With reagrd to your comment to Mr. C Accountant hes just suggesting a way to reduce oversupply. Its not fair that current and future ACA students have to sit harder exams but in life nothing is really fair.

We'll now that it's established that those ACA's that qualified under the old syllabus had an easy time and it's in the interest of the ACA brand to reduce ACAs then how about a random kicking out of, say, 20% of current qualified ACAs? They can go back and sit the new syllabus. That way the numbers with ACA will be reduced.

As we're at it - any volunteers to hand back their certificates - Mr C Accountant?

schumacher

I would be favour of that:p Maybe if people who had qualified under the old system had to do top up exams that were really hard, then we night get rid of a few of them!

manafana

i dont think giving up all your evenings to study makes you better accountant it just makes you more of work obessed one.

schumacher

manafana wrote: »

i dont think giving up all your evenings to study makes you better accountant it just makes you more of work obessed one.

No it just makes you more likely to pass your exams.

Mr.C Accountant

slicus ricus wrote: »

Come back here in a year and say that when you've worked your a$s off for your exams and are still on tenderhooks waiting for your results because you're not sure if you've passed due to the difficulty of the exams that you've just gone through!

Mr C Accountant, from the sounds of it you're qualified, which means you were able to compensate and had a syllabus that is easier than the current one. I'm not knocking it (afterall you're qualified and that is a great achievement) but it's easy to say make them harder when you don't have to do them yourself. I can see your point about the oversupply but that's the industry's fault and is certainly not the fault of any of the students sitting the ACAs at the moment. So why should the current batch of students have to suffer for a problem that has been caused by the industry?

I feel sorry for those who went into accountancy and thought it was a gold mine , because the reality is that, ull probably be doing auditing which is very dry and have to work very very hard to pass the exams and depending on your situation, there might not even be a job for you.....

Invariably if too many qualify there wont be enough jobs for everyone and some will end up working in the service or fast food industries. I think during the boom years of 04,05,06,07 people thought accountancy was a gold mine, 3 years working and qualify, and be on about 60 k, this appeals to so many people as accountancy seems safe and secure. But the sad fact is now, that there are too many already on the market and if the institute let another 1,000+ qualify each year for the next three four years we will be drowning ourselves and eventually only those chartered accountants who are the most intelligent and have first times passes will be given the much coveted Financial Controller role in a company.

So in essence we will be back in square 1, how about make exams really really hard for the new syllabus and let the exams decide the really really good from the medicre, Its better to pull the trigger early than let this problem fester and turn into the law situation. If the exam standard is kept the way it was loads of people will qualify and then people will be moaning .... oh i worked so hard and i can find a job at the end of it.... i guarentee people will say that..........

As someone said earlier life aint fair and to be honest life can be a bitch at times!!!

Hanley

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

we will be drowning ourselves

¬¬
-

Running Bing

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

I feel sorry for those who went into accountancy and thought it was a gold mine , because the reality is that, ull probably be doing auditing which is very dry and have to work very very hard to pass the exams and depending on your situation, there might not even be a job for you.....

Invariably if too many qualify there wont be enough jobs for everyone and some will end up working in the service or fast food industries. I think during the boom years of 04,05,06,07 people thought accountancy was a gold mine, 3 years working and qualify, and be on about 60 k, this appeals to so many people as accountancy seems safe and secure. But the sad fact is now, that there are too many already on the market and if the institute let another 1,000+ qualify each year for the next three four years we will be drowning ourselves and eventually only those chartered accountants who are the most intelligent and have first times passes will be given the much coveted Financial Controller role in a company.

So in essence we will be back in square 1, how about make exams really really hard for the new syllabus and let the exams decide the really really good from the medicre, Its better to pull the trigger early than let this problem fester and turn into the law situation. If the exam standard is kept the way it was loads of people will qualify and then people will be moaning .... oh i worked so hard and i can find a job at the end of it.... i guarentee people will say that..........

As someone said earlier life aint fair and to be honest life can be a bitch at times!!!

So again to clarify.

In order to reduce numbers you would be willing to sit extra hard top up exams and if you failed they take your qualification away?


I mean if we need to raise standards it would seem unfair to have all these underqualified guys running around claiming to be accountants when they got the easier qualification years ago.

And the above measures would definitely reduce the number of accountants out there.

slicus ricus

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

As someone said earlier life aint fair and to be honest life can be a bitch at times!!!

I can see your point but it has no credibility given the fact that it's coming from someone who's already qualified and who no longer has to do exams!

Refer to Running Bing's post above for the rest!

Fruiti

I would have thought (but I could be wrong!) that even if the exams themselves are a lot harder/there's no compensation etc that the standard required to pass will simply be lower? For example, I did my FAEs in 2007 and the entire study body made an official complaint (backed up by the big firms) about the mabf paper - everyone was convinced they would fail! Lo and behold - the % pass rate was around the same as any other year. I don't for a second think everybody did well - I just think they lowered the standard required to pass - i.e. bell curve. So if the avg pass rate for prof 3 used to be 70%, and it stays at 70% for cap 2, then the standard required is no higher. if it drops to 50% then you could be right-they're trying to reduce numbers of qualifieds. I also think the idea that it was way easier to pass a few years ago etc is a bit unfair. I worked hard for the FAEs and scored over 70% in all of them so just because you could compensate doesn't mean everyone did!!

wardso84

well the pass rate for CAP1 last year was 55% so I really don't think the pass rate for CAP2 will be 70%. We can hope! I'd say it'll be more like 40

Mr.C Accountant

wardso84 wrote: »

well the pass rate for CAP1 last year was 55% so I really don't think the pass rate for CAP2 will be 70%. We can hope! I'd say it'll be more like 40

I really think that the standard has not decreased that much, the main thing was that compensation is taken out therefore it seems like the apst rate was much.. re the mabf paper in 2007 i read the examiner report and it said that only 10% passed got 50 or over..............

Ideo

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

I really think that the standard has not decreased that much

Do you mean the standard of the SFMA/MABF exam/course or the numbers of people passing it?

if its the former, then you clearly havent seen the course content. in addition to more difficult/technically challenging exams we have to deal with a whole load of new content such as company valuations, risk etc... all of which have been are only taught on the old FAE course. We are, IMO, expected to be at FAE level instead of the old P3 at CAP2 level.

If its the numbers passing, then you clearly didn't see the paper we sat last week. IMO, it was in now way representative of the course! It was **** tough, P3s in comparison look easy!! i wouldn't be surprised if the CAP2 SFMA pass rate is lower than last years

I think pass rates as a whole, i.e. numbers passing all 4 could be as low as 10-20%!

Fruiti

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

I really think that the standard has not decreased that much, the main thing was that compensation is taken out therefore it seems like the apst rate was much.. re the mabf paper in 2007 i read the examiner report and it said that only 10% passed got 50 or over..............

This definitely isn't right - if you read the exam report it says 77.5% of candidates got 50% or over.

I'd be shocked if the pass rate deteriorated to 10 or 20% but 55% might be more realistic; then it would bring the ACAs more in line with the tax exams which usually have a 50% pass rate. Out of curiosity how many students attempted CAP 2 this year? If the numbers sitting the exams are increasing year on year and the pass rate is decreasing, then the numbers qualifying may not actually be any lower, just the %. Which would make sense given that my intake in my firm a number of years ago was 75 in total and last year it was over 200. So even if half the candidates pass their exams, you still end up with more qualified people than if 100% of my intake passed!

Mr.C Accountant

Fruiti wrote: »

This definitely isn't right - if you read the exam report it says 77.5% of candidates got 50% or over.

I'd be shocked if the pass rate deteriorated to 10 or 20% but 55% might be more realistic; then it would bring the ACAs more in line with the tax exams which usually have a 50% pass rate. Out of curiosity how many students attempted CAP 2 this year? If the numbers sitting the exams are increasing year on year and the pass rate is decreasing, then the numbers qualifying may not actually be any lower, just the %. Which would make sense given that my intake in my firm a number of years ago was 75 in total and last year it was over 200. So even if half the candidates pass their exams, you still end up with more qualified people than if 100% of my intake passed!

There are tooa reas that are being flooded with graduates law and accountancy every joe on the street wants to either of the two, the promised job security, the 50 k a year, the abiltiy to travel appealed to laods of people, once people realise that its a load of **** with rock ahrd exams ... and that auditing is so dry people will say hey... no way man....

This will reduce the numbers..... so anywhere esle its diffuclt to get a job in any field,

Mr.C Accountant

PROFESSIONAL THREE EXAMINERS REPORT
SUMMER 2007
MANAGEMENT ACCOUNTING BUSINESS FINANCE II
Examiners’ Overall Comments

The general performance and overall pass rate was somewhat down on last year’s
summer session but, on that occasion, the pass rate was exceptionally high. On this
occasion most candidates performed reasonably well with only around 10% finishing

outside the compensation range.

This is a testament that only 10% passed the mabf paper!!!

http://www.icai.ie/Global/exampapers/SUMMER%202007%20MABF.pdf

Mr.C Accountant

PROFESSIONAL THREE EXAMINERS REPORT
SUMMER 2007
MANAGEMENT ACCOUNTING BUSINESS FINANCE II
Examiners’ Overall Comments

The general performance and overall pass rate was somewhat down on last year’s
summer session but, on that occasion, the pass rate was exceptionally high. On this
occasion most candidates performed reasonably well with only around 10% finishing

outside the compensation range.

This is a testament that only 10% passed the mabf paper!!!

http://www.icai.ie/Global/exampapers...007%20MABF.pdf

Hanley

Mr.C Accountant wrote: »

PROFESSIONAL THREE EXAMINERS REPORT
SUMMER 2007
MANAGEMENT ACCOUNTING BUSINESS FINANCE II
Examiners’ Overall Comments

The general performance and overall pass rate was somewhat down on last year’s
summer session but, on that occasion, the pass rate was exceptionally high. On this
occasion most candidates performed reasonably well with only around 10% finishing

outside the compensation range.

This is a testament that only 10% passed the mabf paper!!!

http://www.icai.ie/Global/exampapers...007%20MABF.pdf

What does that prove? That people need compensation to passs....? No sh!t!!

How many people fell within the compensation range and passed as a result tho?

How many people passed this years CAP2's? Wait... we don't know. Nice work on beating a dead horse tho. It's nice that you're on a crusade to prove it was as hard for you to qualify as it is for the current batch of students.

kluivert

This discussion is going no where.

Its actually going around in circles.

Trolling is not allowed.

Make your point, defend your point when neceesary but recycling the same point in a similiar format to get a re-action is trolling.