The Lions tour has become an anachronism?

escobar

Read a rather disturbing article in the independent.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/peter-bills/extinction-on-cards-as-lions-become-prey-1789238.html

''It has long since become apparent that dark forces are gathering to threaten the whole concept of Lions tours. The difficulty in finding time for professional players from the northern hemisphere to commit to a Lions tour of any serious length is just one of them.''

''If the warm-up matches are no longer of any use, why would future Lions teams bother to play them? Better, in all probability, to warm up by playing the likes of Munster, Toulouse and Leicester back home and just fly in for perhaps a four-match Test series.''

''This is the shortest Lions tour ever undertaken and the lack of preparation is brutally apparent. Even now, with just two matches left, the Tests in Pretoria this Saturday and Johannesburg the following weekend, it is obvious that the Lions coaching staff are still trying out different combinations.''

The best of the northern hemisphere minus a few frenchies can't even beat a national team, no wonder the SA's arn't taking them seriously .........When you add in the dreadful attendance of 28,250 per lions match with only two matches left it doesn't make good reading.........The lions tour as we know it may well be over...........

parker kent

Plus South Africa probably just view it as a good warm up for the Tri Nations.

RHunce

escobar wrote: »

The best of the northern hemisphere minus a few frenchies can't even beat a national team, no wonder the SA's arn't taking them seriously

come on man they only had a few weeks together what can you expect?

team mates for a few weeks can be expected to win the serious against the world champions dont forget! in a very hostile environment

Euro_Kraut

RHunce wrote: »

come on man they only had a few weeks together what can you expect?

team mates for a few weeks can be expected to win the serious against the world champions dont forget! in a very hostile environment

How long are the Irish team together for? They are made up of player from 3 provinces.

RHunce

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

How long are the Irish team together for? They are made up of player from 3 provinces.

thats true but these players have been playing with each other for years and every year they introduce more players to the set up and settle them in too. with the lions everyone is just thrown in and expected to do well because they are the best from Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales. but some of the better players are injured eg, R.Jones, J.Flannery or L.Halfpenny or banned eg, A.Quinlan, N.Hines. and while i wouldnt have picked quinlan i dont think a team can be expected to do well when they are missing some clearly great players who would be starting

corny

Rubbish. The revenue and excitement the Lions generates is enormous. Didn't 20 odd thousand people travel half way around the world to New Zealand 4 years ago to watch the New Zealanders hand it to us!

Long may it continue.

OldJay

Mr Bills, that is not a conclusion but an opinion.
:rolleyes:

escobar

RHunce wrote: »

come on man they only had a few weeks together what can you expect?

team mates for a few weeks can be expected to win the serious against the world champions dont forget! in a very hostile environment

I dunno I've heard that excuse before, seems to be churned out every tour.....

Fair enough it is a hostile environment but it is professional rugby ,I would expect nothing less........maybe I'm used to enjoying Ireland winning but for a team that could and should be winning against a single nation, I can't say I'm enjoying watching them loose. It seems by the match attendances neither do the Saffers....

The draw against the emerging springboks was an absolutely terrible result. Am I right in saying that they would be at a lower level than the SA A-team......

Maybe as the article says

''If the warm-up matches are no longer of any use, why would future Lions teams bother to play them? Better, in all probability, to warm up by playing the likes of Munster, Toulouse and Leicester back home and just fly in for perhaps a four-match Test series. But that destroys the whole concept.''

You see..... how many matches are needed to prepare and unify a team to win, and is that possible in the professional era?

To get to the core of the problem.....Is professionalism destroying the lions?

marco_polo

I don't see how it could be the fault of the Lions that the SARFU are changing triple the usual price of a Tri nations ticket, and playing understrenght proviences when they had agreed otherwise prior to the tour.

Stealdo

The sooner people stop reading that sensationalist rag the better.

There's nothing peculiar about the Lions having it handed to them, it's been happening since the first tour, sure the South African Union screwed up on the ticket prices but that's far from the worst bit of lunacy we've seen from that organisation lately.

Typical of the publication involved it's a know nothing piece of space filling junk journalism.

Amabokke

RHunce wrote: »

come on man they only had a few weeks together what can you expect?

team mates for a few weeks can be expected to win the serious against the world champions dont forget! in a very hostile environment

After the demolishing of the Golden Lions and the Sharks we had to read from all channels how ready the Lions were for the boks. How they are match fit, having played together as a unit for weeks, how they will bring their A game and make the boks notice them.....

....well the boks did take notice and made sure the Lions won't forget the difference between a provincial and the springbok team.

Roberts and BOD were brilliant together. Jones played bad and Phillips were good but as a Welsh unit they worked well together.

Monye failed to score 2 tries, Phillips 1, Jones missed two penalties and Vickery gave away 4/5 penalties.

These issues had nothing to do with with not being together before and it was more like 6 weeks not just a few.

anonymous_joe

Amabokke wrote: »

After the demolishing of the Golden Lions and the Sharks we had to read from all channels how ready the Lions were for the boks. How they are match fit, having played together as a unit for weeks, how they will bring their A game and make the boks notice them.....

....well the boks did take notice and made sure the Lions won't forget the difference between a provincial and the springbok team.

Roberts and BOD were brilliant together. Jones played bad and Phillips were good but as a Welsh unit they worked well together.

Monye failed to score 2 tries, Phillips 1, Jones missed two penalties and Vickery gave away 4/5 penalties.

These issues had nothing to do with with not being together before and it was more like 6 weeks not just a few.

The thing is though, a lot of people would have loved to have seen the provincial players playing for their teams.

Also, how fcuking cool would a game against the Bulls have been? They just won the S14, (Well sort of, the S14 bit did :pac:) and they're the only team that beat 'em in 97 (other than the Springboks once iirc) so surely a game against 'em with the likes of Spies, Morne Steyn at all playing would have been unreal.

buck65

Give the players a rest , who needs the Lions?, the world cup has replaced it.
Who really gives a **** if we lose 2-1 or 3-0? I was looking forward to the games but tbh they are brutal ,passionless affairs.

Amabokke

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The thing is though, a lot of people would have loved to have seen the provincial players playing for their teams.

Also, how fcuking cool would a game against the Bulls have been? They just won the S14, (Well sort of, the S14 bit did :pac:) and they're the only team that beat 'em in 97 (other than the Springboks once iirc) so surely a game against 'em with the likes of Spies, Morne Steyn at all playing would have been unreal.

I agree but if you look at the schedule. After the tri-Nations last year players played in the Currie Cup and then went to Europe for the AI with a 1-2 week break in Dec. Then they started prepations for the S14 and played it right through until 7 weeks before the Lions. So far a lot of players who had no injuries would've been playing for 10 months non-stop.

The games are brutal but not passionless.

gosplan

If the Lions had scored one extra try, all the same changes would be made but this article would never have been written.

Zero-insight obvious column filler IMO.

death1234567

The warm-up games on the tour are a joke TBH, especially having a 'midweek' team. Should just be a 25 man squad, 2 warm-up games and then a 3 test match series.

Amabokke

death1234567 wrote: »

The warm-up games on the tour are a joke TBH, especially having a 'midweek' team. Should just be a 25 man squad, 2 warm-up games and then a 3 test match series.

Not really a joke. Two prepation matches and the Lions will get destroyed. Bringing 4 home unions they need game time. 25 man squad and 6 get injured and new combinations will unsettle the squad.

People should just enjoy rugby.

anonymous_joe

Amabokke wrote: »

I agree but if you look at the schedule. After the tri-Nations last year players played in the Currie Cup and then went to Europe for the AI with a 1-2 week break in Dec. Then they started prepations for the S14 and played it right through until 7 weeks before the Lions. So far a lot of players who had no injuries would've been playing for 10 months non-stop.

The games are brutal but not passionless.

I don't disagree, but it's a pity.

escobar

death1234567 wrote: »

The warm-up games on the tour are a joke TBH, especially having a 'midweek' team. Should just be a 25 man squad, 2 warm-up games and then a 3 test match series.

If you want to test out new combinations a two match warm up wouldn't be enough, Maybe picking existing combinations. i.e. scrum half, out half from the same team etc might speed up the process and allow a shorter warm up period.....
Prob better to have a smaller squad, the midweek team is a no go, maybe as you say a barbarians style of game with a few established combinations would be better....
Definitley should be shortened . The saffers wern't taking the lions seriously at all.

GiftofGab

parker kent wrote: »

Plus South Africa probably just view it as a good warm up for the Tri Nations.

Seriously doubt it mate. Alot of the South Africans got offered better contracts after the World Cup, to sign for european clubs but turned them down to stay and play against the lions. This is a HUGE thing for them. You can expect to see a few of them move to france and england after this tour.

partyguinness

The Confederations Cup and the focus on next years World Cup must have played a factor in distracting the public. an awful lot cheaper to go to the soccer games which are all played full blooded and with their "star" players.

But the SAs are an arrogant/onboxious bunch anyway so perhaps it's a "we dont give a crap about you and your poxy Lions"

mikeruurds

partyguinness wrote: »

But the SAs are an arrogant/onboxious bunch anyway so perhaps it's a "we dont give a crap about you and your poxy Lions"

Generalise much? Many senior Saffa players have delayed retirement to play against the Lions and the fans have been looking forward to this for more than a decade.

And we're not arrogant or obnoxious. We just love rugby.

need assistance

I have seen suggested elsewhere and I think it was done in the distant past, the ideal solution. If the Lions were to play three or four games in South America, Argentinian national team and some strong provinces and than go on to South Africa or whereever for one or two warm up games only followed by a series against the host nation.

This would solve problem of poor pre test games and would aid the South American game. Who after the way they have been treated by tri nations need all the help they can get.

escobar

partyguinness wrote: »

The Confederations Cup and the focus on next years World Cup must have played a factor in distracting the public. an awful lot cheaper to go to the soccer games which are all played full blooded and with their "star" players.

But the SAs are an arrogant/onboxious bunch anyway so perhaps it's a "we dont give a crap about you and your poxy Lions"

They don't seem to take the lions seriously down that part of the world. But I suppose they keep on losing, so you couldn't blame them....

Sad to see that basically the best the northern hemisphere has to offer ,minus a few frenchies of course, can't win. The lions are definitely less than the sum of it's parts.

Neil francis was on setanta the other day saying thay had to win the 2nd test or they were finished as a franchise.....
One of the major factors is they can't go on long 3 month tours anymore to gel the players together. Not possible in the pro era.....

Amabokke

escobar wrote: »

They don't seem to take the lions seriously down that part of the world. But I suppose they keep on losing, so you couldn't blame them....

Sad to see that basically the best the northern hemisphere has to offer ,minus a few frenchies of course, can't win. The lions are definitely less than the sum of it's parts.

Neil francis was on setanta the other day saying thay had to win the 2nd test or they were finished as a franchise.....
One of the major factors is they can't go on long 3 month tours anymore to gel the players together. Not possible in the pro era.....

I'm intrigued as too why you think so?

Neil Francis does not have good rugby knowledge. He simply says what he thinks supporters will want to hear instead of talking about reality. Pope, Hook and O'Shea anyday over Francis.

anonymous_joe

In this neck of the woods all we've seen is the arrogance of New Zealand after 05, and the nigh on poison of this tour.

I can't really remember the 97 or 01 tours that well.

escobar

Read another bad report on the lions tour

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/limp-lions-are-fogotten-men-1795582.html
Quote below...

''This is the week where weary Lions, battered by a long season, just want to go home. We'll meet them when they're laden down with shopping bags in Johannesburg's malls and we'll avert our eyes. We'll stick dictaphones in their faces and record quotes that we know we won't be using and we'll ring home and try and create drama where none exists to people who will pretend to listen. ''

''Because, for all the drama, excitement and the 'coulda, shoulda and wouldas' of the first two Tests -- boil it all down and you're left with a bunch of ... that's right, say it with me ... losers. ''

Kinda sums it up really .....just don't enjoy following a team that loses all the time. I can't see the lions tour existing as it stands now. With so many injuries (5 in the last game I believe) and playing such a long season our players will have to rest for the first 2 months of their own national leagues......

Andf all for a team that doesn't even make a profit........
and most of all...........there's no prestige in losing at all....:(

escobar

Amabokke wrote: »

I'm intrigued as too why you think so?

Neil Francis does not have good rugby knowledge. He simply says what he thinks supporters will want to hear instead of talking about reality. Pope, Hook and O'Shea anyday over Francis.

Not blaming the saffers.....just how could they ...the lions keep on losing....

Pretty embarassing that the NH less france can't even win a game....

and regardless of the issue of ticket pricing the attendances of approx 30 thousand a game are pretty abysmal considering 5 nations were involved. Obviously not that much interest over here either...

There's just no time in the modern professional era for such a tour.

Erin Go Brath

Why not just have the tests - maybe 4 tests and do away with games against the provinical sides. The lions v provinces games didn't capture the imagination at all, they were just a damp squib. The lions against SA, NZ, OZ national teams is still a good idea though and the franchise should be kept up for this to continue.

OldJay

escobar wrote: »

Not blaming the saffers.....just how could they ...the lions keep on losing....

Pretty embarassing that the NH less france can't even win a game....

and regardless of the issue of ticket pricing the attendances of approx 30 thousand a game are pretty abysmal considering 5 nations were involved. Obviously not that much interest over here either...

There's just no time in the modern professional era for such a tour.

"Embarrassing"??? It would be embarrassing if you were an international, current or ex-Lions but as a supporter...?

There is plenty of time for the tour. This is the challenge of them. Since the game went openly pro, the Lions have won a series, lost one by the width of a gnats hair and gotten thumped in one.
Whats the problem with hungry supporters out there? Not like the idea of a challenge? If sports were deemed pointless because a team would lose in the end, then nobody should ever bother getting started.

Twin-go

How about this:

Every 4 years instead of playing One country is a test series the Lions could play in the Tri-Nations add in Agentina and it would make for a great series.

Then 2 years later (and subsequently every 4 years) have a team made up of the 4 main southern hemisphere teams play in the six nations.

Also the Lions squad should meet up at the end of every season weather touring or not just to get gelling sooner. I know you'll have different players there based on form but the core should remain the same.

escobar

Justind wrote: »

"Embarrassing"??? It would be embarrassing if you were an international, current or ex-Lions but as a supporter...?

There is plenty of time for the tour. This is the challenge of them. Since the game went openly pro, the Lions have won a series, lost one by the width of a gnats hair and gotten thumped in one.
Whats the problem with hungry supporters out there? Not like the idea of a challenge? If sports were deemed pointless because a team would lose in the end, then nobody should ever bother getting started.

I've seen the lions compared to the harlem globetrotters on this site and how prestigeous they are etc etc.

The reason being that they should be that good.!!

Why have a team that should be the best in the world considering it's basically the NH minus a few frenchies......why create or sustain this team of demi-gods if they can't even scrape a win together.

Professionalism has been around a while but for example the celtic league is only in existence for two tours and only one in it's current format. Professionalism is only fully getting established in the last few years... It won't allow for a three month tour to allow the players to gel properly and this lions tour is the shortest ever. I expect the tour to get shorter, Neil Francis rugby commentator would agree.
He said unless we win the second match and play well in the last match the tour as we know it will be over.....

The players have existing commitments.We can't afford to have the playing season extended by two months and for them to need to rest during the season in the next ML. Two months rest at the start of the ML for lions players I heard. Add all the injuries into that stat and it's a complete disaster...... there's just not the time in the modern professional game.

Here's some thought from the media today...

''This is the week where weary Lions, battered by a long season, just want to go home. We'll meet them when they're laden down with shopping bags in Johannesburg's malls and we'll avert our eyes. We'll stick dictaphones in their faces and record quotes that we know we won't be using and we'll ring home and try and create drama where none exists to people who will pretend to listen. ''

''Because, for all the drama, excitement and the 'coulda, shoulda and wouldas' of the first two Tests -- boil it all down and you're left with a bunch of ... that's right, say it with me ... losers. ''

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/limp-lions-are-fogotten-men-1795582.html