Tender prices returned ...what recession!

2sounds

Ive posted the details of my house build on the live self builds but in short its a TF const approx 3000sq ft.
Three weeks ago we went out to tender via our architects to 6 main contractors and 6 TF companys, window and heating suppliers. The specs were very details appox 100 documents breaking down to the last socket and light bulb.

Its almost passive in certain areas windows , insulation roof etc but we included pc sums for most of these.

However the main cost increase in the passive element is factored into the TF and windows

Last week we had the reveal of tenders returned.

On the TF, closed system uvalue 0.16 for walls we got the following..
110k
85k
67k
57k (higher uvalue that what we want)

Windows uvalue 0.12
47k
40k
39k
36k

Overall Main quotes
560k!
520k
495k
478k
470k
365K

What a difference. Now theres no ambiguity as far as what involved as the specs were so detailed. these figures do not include kitchen,sanitary ware , remainder of architects fees either! (add another 60Kish)



Ive read so much about how the cost of building has come down but its not reflected in my quotes (bar one)

Worst case above is near €190 sq foot.

We tendered to reputable firms who we feel will last the distance and have a proven track record. (with architects advise of working with them previously)

So what does this mean for us, the dearest quotes were from largeish firms with big overheads im sure, the cheapest from a family run small outfit so maybe theres something in that.

Also im wondering if these firms saw the job coming in from a well recognised architect, saw the level of detail and assumed "these guys must have plenty of cash" (which we dont) lets try and push it a bit if we still can.

So my architect is meeting with the lowest three and getting a breakdown of the figures to see where the bulk of the costs are and take it from there

so if you take out 180k that covers the tf, windows and heating thats almost 400k left for the dearest guy to stick it all together!

But HOW can there be over 200k of a differece for the exact same job or even 80-90k for that matter?

(Im in Kildare)

sydthebeat

other than TF what building system did you price for???
any cavity wall???

cavity wall construction is the 'cheap as chips' method right now.. .not the other methods....

labour costs have plummetted... not materials...

I dont know what companies you priced for timber frame..... but some of those quotes are mad....

i wonder if your house design is convoluted??

i know of a TF company who recently gave a quotation of 52K for a 3200 sq ft for a 300mm I Beam frame with trussed, latted and felted roof....

closed system TF companies are severly over priced at the moment.... look at open systems and price for warmcell insulation between frames... you could save €x,000's

your u value quotes are pretty good ... i assume your talking about 1.2 windows and not 0.12!!!

hblock21

So what price were you thinking they should be coming back around?

50 quid?

There businesses that make profit like any other in the country, maybe they all have work on at the moment, so did not necessarily need to take on a job for nothing.

sydthebeat

hblock21 wrote: »

So what price were you thinking they should be coming back around?

50 quid?

There businesses that make profit like any other in the country, maybe they all have work on at the moment, so did not necessarily need to take on a job for nothing.

not a very well thought out statement.....

the OP has clearly explained that a full tender package was put together by his/her architect... down to every light fitting...

with this information each tenderer was pricing from the same specification and in cases such as this, there should not be almost €200,000 difference between the lowest and highest quotes for a 3000 sq ft dwelling...

does not mak esense in teh current economic climate...

Mike2006

I experienced the same thing a few months ago.

I spent about a month developing as detailed a spec as I could and sent it out to 4 builders.

All 4 came back with prices but none of them quoted for what I asked for. they all did their own thing and left out items all over the place that they didn't like..

I had a budget of €120/sqft and if one of them had come in at that I would have given it to them as i really did not want to go down the direct labour route, but their quotes were so all over the place and unprofessional that i could just not bring myself to giving them half a million euro. One builder just rang me with a price and that was that. No breakdown...

You will find that once you go through the quotes in detail the reasons for the differences in price will become apparent.

I have now decided that i am going to take time off work and pay myself to project manage the build and it will still work out a lot cheaper than any of their prices and I have full costings for my job at realistic prices + contingency.

Mike.

sinnerboy

2sounds wrote: »

But HOW can there be over 200k of a differece for the exact same job or even 80-90k for that matter?(Im in Kildare)

Because we live in a free market economy . Prices are not fixed . Not for building no more the petrol pump prices or anything else . You have a detailed spec so with a properly executed contract - you have as near as you can get to a fixed price for the build - there is little room to argue costs later .

Wonky Knees

I'd take the tender docs, work up quantities where necessary and price the materials yourself.

take your material prices and from there it doesn't take a lot to work out labour costs.

If your final price is within 10% of the most reasonable quote then the quotes are fair. If greater than this I would go down the self-build route and/or hire one of the plethora of excellent foremen who have found themselves out of a job in recent months.

sydthebeat

fatimamansions wrote: »

I'd take the tender docs, work up quantities where necessary and price the materials yourself.

take your material prices and from there it doesn't take a lot to work out labour costs.

If your final price is within 10% of the most reasonable quote then the quotes are fair. If greater than this I would go down the self-build route and/or hire one of the plethora of excellent foremen who have found themselves out of a job in recent months.

When youre pricing closed timber framed systems this is very hard to do....

2sounds

Yes I appreciate people have to make a living an Im not saying that I want it done for nothing or I want to screw someone over just because times are hard. Were all suffering at the moment. But I do expect value for money.

Market demands dictate cost its that simple. Ive a good budget for this build and I want to give it to someone to build my family home that will be there for my kids.

Perhaps these companies are busy at the moment and thats fair enough. The CIF is releasing press statements every week bemoaning the state of the industry and I do feel for those who have lost thier jobs, my own job is hanging in the balance at the moment and thats after a 20% pay cut.

However I still feel that some of these companies expectations and the actual reality of the situation are still miles apart

Our Architects firm themselves are flabbergasted at some of the quotes and they know the reality of the situation. (theyve reduced their practice from 20 down to 5 staff)

I think leaner , smaller firms will survive this downturn better over their more bloated inefficient counterparts.

As for the self build/ project manger route Id love to be able to do this but Ive no experience whatsoever in the building sector so I wouldnt be at all comfortable with this though I do appreciate the suggestion.

I think the main problm is that construction firms have been so used to the cash doling in that now they dont know how to work at getting or winning business , similar to all those car salesmen who never left the comfort of the forecourt office, now they're standing at the gate waving you in and running around after you.

I hope it all works out for us all , im not wishing bad fortune on anyone but its get fit or die

sinnerboy

2 Sounds - you have more than a fair grip of matters . Each individual , each company , will react in a different way to the same circumstance .

There is no other explanation for the price variance . Look hard at the lowest prices , check , with the architect , the bids carefully to ensure they have priced what was asked for ( do not take THAT for granted )

As I have said - once signed up - you have very good documentation to minimize - or with a little luck / mutual goodwill - eliminate entirely disputes later on .

( Pay cut's a bitch ain't they )

2sounds

sinnerboy/sydthebeat - appreciate the wise words. Your right , im 7 years chasing this dream and trying to get it done , raise funds etc so frustration does creep in from time to time. Its great to have an place to rant though - to infinity and beyond my friends!

archtech

I was talking to a builder yesterday who is lowest on a tender after pricing the job keenly and expected to just break even at the time of pricing (less than 2 months ago) and he now reckons that he could make 8-10% profit because both labour and material are dropping.

You might find some of those that tendered are banking on that happening.

Pricing at the moment is like selling development land.... very much of an unknown.