Impact of doing tempo running too fast?

Peckham

One for the speedwork experts....

With the exception of increased injury potential and longer recovery time, what is the impact of doing tempo running too fast?

Have read in plenty of places that it should be done around the pace you currently race 10 miles at, or the pace you can hold for an hour....but what if you go faster than this.

Last night I did 4 miles tempo with avg pace of around 6:28. This is not a pace I can currently hold for an hour/10 miles, and I really struggled with it in the final mile (where my HR hit about 95% Max)

By working this hard am I doing myself favours or harm?

cfitz

I'm interested to hear what the more knowledgable people say about this too. I would imagine that it might not bring the benefits of what the correct pace would do, but it would still be quite beneficial.

Peckham wrote: »

With the exception of increased injury potential and longer recovery time

With these exceptions, I would think it would be best to do all your 'everyday' runs as fast as is possible without losing form (as in running style).

pgibbo

+1 on this. The reason being that the FIRST training plan does tempo runs based on 5k times. For example, today I did 1m easy, 2m @ 6:38, 1m easy, 2m @ 6:38 and 1m easy. There is no way I could hold 6:38 for 10miles or 1 hour.

Running Bing

Right not knowledgeable about this at all but this is the way I always looked at it.

Tempo runs should be viewed as one part of a wider training plan. I believe tempo pace is the pace at which lactate starts accumulating more rapidly in the muscles i.e. the lactate turn point. By working at this pace the body gradually adapts and the lactate turnpoint subsequently occurs at a higher pace in future.

Now tempo running is only one aspect of a well balanced training plan. Its similiar to saying why dont I run my easy days at full pelt? You will of course get more benefit during the individual run but if you look at the bigger picture its going to be detrimental.


Not sure if thats right or wrong but thats the way I always looked at it (thats why I like Jack Daniels plans because he is very specific about what each pace is for and why you should just do the workouts at the prescribed paces, no faster and no slower).

shels4ever

Peckham wrote: »

One for the speedwork experts....

With the exception of increased injury potential and longer recovery time, what is the impact of doing tempo running too fast?

Have read in plenty of places that it should be done around the pace you currently race 10 miles at, or the pace you can hold for an hour....but what if you go faster than this.

Last night I did 4 miles tempo with avg pace of around 6:28. This is not a pace I can currently hold for an hour/10 miles, and I really struggled with it in the final mile (where my HR hit about 95% Max)

By working this hard am I doing myself favours or harm?

Good topic , was wondering the same myself in regards to speed session,

Sosa

According to Tergat a couple of weeks ago...i should be doing my tempos at 6:30 to 6:35 Pace...i told him my 4m time was 23:15 and this is what he recommended.
He said that sustained training at 6:30/6:35 pace for me will help greatly with preperation for the marathon...faster tempos are for shorter races...he reckons.

Peckham,
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055588842
This is an old thread that tergat contributed to a few weeks ago.

I tend to do them quicker aswell,and often wonder about the consequences...In January i did 10m race @ 6:28 Pace...i know that i could do better now...maybe under 6:20 Pace...so that ( for me ) throws out the theory that your tempos should be run at your 10m time...according to Tergat anyway !

Looking forward to a few of the people in the know replying to this.

ss43

Peckham wrote: »

One for the speedwork experts....

With the exception of increased injury potential and longer recovery time, what is the impact of doing tempo running too fast?

Have read in plenty of places that it should be done around the pace you currently race 10 miles at, or the pace you can hold for an hour....but what if you go faster than this.

Last night I did 4 miles tempo with avg pace of around 6:28. This is not a pace I can currently hold for an hour/10 miles, and I really struggled with it in the final mile (where my HR hit about 95% Max)

By working this hard am I doing myself favours or harm?

The hour/10mile thing is an estimate for lactate threshold which tends to occur (if it exists at all) at around 4mmol. The idea there is you run at a lactate level of 4mmol. The hour is just a guideline for those who haven't got their LT pace measured.

In my opinion, the best way to raise your lactate threshold is to run at paces above it. Running at threshold pace would be more beneficial for extending the length of time you can hold it for (it would also raise the threshold though).

With regard to anaerobic threshold and its importance.

For marathon it's faster than race pace and should be developed early in the training plan and then once it's up to a decent level, the training shoul be aimed at reducing the pace difference between aerobic threshold (around 2mmol) and anaerobic threshold.

For half-marathon - it's race pace or slightly faster for top level runners so is th emost important aspect ot be worked on.

For 10k it's slightly slower than race pace so it provides the aerobic support. Therefore it is important to develop the AnT as much as possible.

For races of 5k and lower, threshold is relevant but significantly slower than race pace so not of as much importance as in the longer distances.

That's what I reckon anyway.

Racing Flat

Running Bing wrote: »

I believe tempo pace is the pace at which lactate starts accumulating more rapidly in the muscles i.e. the lactate turn point. By working at this pace the body gradually adapts and the lactate turnpoint subsequently occurs at a higher pace in future.

That's about right.

Also, tempo runs are usually recommended to last at least 20mins, some say do 2 x 20, some say do 40mins continuous...So say you are doing a tempo run of 40mins - well if you are any faster than your hour race pace, you will be practically racing. So you either won't be able to sustain this, or if you do it will take so much out of you that you will not manage another high quality session 3 days later...

If you are trying to improve your ability to deal with lactic acid build up, being just at the threshold of where this becomes too difficult for your body to deal with (LT pace, see below) might be a better way to improve this rather than being flooded with it (if you were much faster than LT pace). Also by increasing the acidity of your body too much will soon erode your endurance if I've understood tergat correctly.

Personally I don't see how anyone can go much faster than their 10mie race pace during a tempo run of 20mins or more, in the middle of a normal training week. My 10mile pace is 6.00 and to run for 20mins+ at this pace is very tough. Now if I was doing 2 x 10mins I'd be at closer to 5.40 pace, but I wouldn't really class this session in the same way.

Perhaps as running bing and ss43 have alluded to, when you are talking about the 10mile/1hour race pace you are talking about lactate threshold pace or an LT run. While a tempo run can be anything faster than jogging pace, whether it be marathon pace, LT pace, or faster. You've just upped the tempo...

Training to improve your lactate threshold is going to improve your performance. How to best do this is where the arguments might begin. tergat explined his views on this in a thread where he advocated that to get the best LT improvements you are better off running faster than this pace and slower than this pace, rather than at it (I think!!!). So doing runs at what he calls CV pace (5k race pace + 10secs per km) and at 'long tempo' pace might achieve these two goals. So like running bing said a balanced programme is important - can't look at 1 session in isolation.

And Peckam if you can run a 85min half marathon, you'll probably run a 63min 10mile or so. So your LT pace is probably closer to 6.20 than 6.28. Maybe you were running slower rather than faster than you intended? (ie if you were aiming to run at LT pace that is). I know you said that 6.28 is not a pace you could currently hold for 10miles, but with a fairly recent 85min half marathon, you wouldn't be far from 65 at the outside tbh IMO.

ecoli

cfitz wrote: »

I'm interested to hear what the more knowledgable people say about this too. I would imagine that it might not bring the benefits of what the correct pace would do, but it would still be quite beneficial.



With these exceptions, I would think it would be best to do all your 'everyday' runs as fast as is possible without losing form (as in running style).

It can have an immediate improvement on your performance as it my result in you peaking which can ruin planning for a goal race. this can lead to overtraining and burning out which can result in poor performance unless rest is taken for anything up to six weeks for full recovery

tergat

Peckham wrote: »

One for the speedwork experts....

With the exception of increased injury potential and longer recovery time, what is the impact of doing tempo running too fast?

Have read in plenty of places that it should be done around the pace you currently race 10 miles at, or the pace you can hold for an hour....but what if you go faster than this.

Last night I did 4 miles tempo with avg pace of around 6:28. This is not a pace I can currently hold for an hour/10 miles, and I really struggled with it in the final mile (where my HR hit about 95% Max)

By working this hard am I doing myself favours or harm?

Peckham,

Interesting question, ill have a stab at it.

Lactate Threshold pace is (theoretically) the fastest pace you can hold before lactate rises at a substantially elevated and disproportional rate. Typically coaches talk about 1-hr race pace when using the term LT. Physiologists use laboratory methods or techniques to identify LT. They typically perform a ramp test to assess your LT. There is debate about LT. Some people argue about how it is assessed. Others argue about whether it really exists.

If one uses small enough ramping maneuvers and takes frequent samplings of blood for lactate, true threshold can disappear completely for many subjects. However, if one uses an exact lactate level, then true comparisons and identifications can be made. For example, LT may be defined as 1 mmol of lactate above resting level. Or, it may be defined as certain level: 2, 2.5 or 4 mmols are common.

In a practical way, it doesn’t matter if it really exists. What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 at a 4-mmol level a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective.

As I have stated on here before doing reps (800m-1600m) at CV pace (Current 5km pace + 8-12 secs) is an optimal means of elevating one’s lactate threshold or MLSS –max lactate steady state.

Doing Tempos faster than you should every now ant then will not cause any major problems but to progress long term it is important to keep in the right zone. Remember if you are patient, the pace should naturally get quicker over time as you get fitter.

You may find that shorter, faster tempos are harder for you when your anaerobic capacity is not well developed. If you run races like 5k's weekly all of a sudden the shorter but faster tempos become more manageable. The ease of doing slower but longer tempos normally reflects fine endurance and limited anaerobic capacity. A balance between fast, medium, and slower tempos is ideal.

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.

The two major improvements you will receive from doing the faster tempo running is greater stimulation of fast twitch fibers (elevating both their mitochondria numbers and capillaries) and better improvement in coordination (which ultimately can lead to better efficiency and running fast).

Lets not get too bogged down with tempos, they are only one factor in the equation. Think of it this way, in the weeks immediatly preceeding a goal race you must simulate a portion of the race-demands. So, you should be doing some marathon paced tempo running once a week for the 8-10 weeks leading to a marathon race. If you have a goal 10k race, run some CV or 10k pace every single week for 8-10 weeks. If you have a goal 5k race, you should do some 5k paced reps and races in the lead up to your goal race.

Be careful not to overdo reps and races @ faster than CV pace / 10k pace because doing so dips into anaerobic reserves for the required energy demand. My experience as a coach that erosion of aerobic efficiency is highly possible if you dip too much, too often, into anaerobic reserves. One way to prevent such a problem is continue doing stamina/endurance work every week. So, basically slow tempo to CV paced running will do the trick. And, secondarily, you must continue doing plenty of slower aerobic running whenever dipping into anaerobic reserves.

The faster you run in workouts (or harder, you might say), the more important it is to run slowly during your non-key workouts. This is where runners mess up all the time. Do not make the stupid mistake of running quickly between hard workouts.

Intensity is a fire. You must use only enough to warm your toes and hands; not so much that a huge blaze gets out of control and burns the forest down.

Tergat

DJS

Im no expert on this but iv found that tempo is done at the level till the body thats to produce lactic acid. If u can run and talk you working aerobicly but if your running and your just breatless then your working an-aerobicly so your closer to your tempo pace. Obviously its hard to judge. Tempos arent ment to be flat out so if your a longer distance runner training for 10miles. Then work out wat pace u want to be running at... and gradually increase your pace till its about on schedule to what you want. You have to get your body used to that sort of pace.But running too fast on a tempo session isnt benefical for you. I dont know if that was any help but thats my view on it. P.S i dont do enough tempos but iv done a few to know what pace to run at. Everybody is different

MayoRoadRunner

Funny that I came across this thread as just done my first tempo session all year this evening.
One mile warm up followed by 3 miles at average pace of 6.05. Felt seriously spent by the end of the third mile. Ran 30.14 in last years Irish Runner 5 mile and was aiming for sub 30 this year but after today i really don't think i'm up to it. Funny because i feel a lot fitter this year on account of taking up cycling and swimming fitting in c. 10 hours a week. Guess my running fitness has suffered as a result.
Anyways, after todays run I now know that 6.20/6.30 pace is my ideal tempo. I ran 1.07 in Frank Duffy 10 mile last year. Thats about 6.40 pace so its close enough (give or take 10 or 20 seconds) and fits in well to the above theories on using 10 mile race pace for tempo runs. Going at 6.20/6.30 pace will tire me out just enough to grow stronger from it but not that much that it would impact on the next days session.
I was doing 1/4's this year. (1/4 mile @ in c. 80 seconds with 90 second rest) times 8. They did not hurt as much as todays tempo.
To be honest the tempo run replicates that really sh**ty feeling of the last 10 mins of a race (where you promise yourself you will never subject your body to this torture again) so then when it comes to race day you are familiar with the feeling and know how to deal with it so it does'nt phase you.
Real lay-man thoughts on a tempo session so apologies to the more scientific amongst us.

ss43

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Funny that I came across this thread as just done my first tempo session all year this evening.
One mile warm up followed by 3 miles at average pace of 6.05. Felt seriously spent by the end of the third mile. Ran 30.14 in last years Irish Runner 5 mile and was aiming for sub 30 this year but after today i really don't think i'm up to it. Funny because i feel a lot fitter this year on account of taking up cycling and swimming fitting in c. 10 hours a week. Guess my running fitness has suffered as a result.
Anyways, after todays run I now know that 6.20/6.30 pace is my ideal tempo. I ran 1.07 in Frank Duffy 10 mile last year. Thats about 6.40 pace so its close enough (give or take 10 or 20 seconds) and fits in well to the above theories on using 10 mile race pace for tempo runs. Going at 6.20/6.30 pace will tire me out just enough to grow stronger from it but not that much that it would impact on the next days session.
I was doing 1/4's this year. (1/4 mile @ in c. 80 seconds with 90 second rest) times 8. They did not hurt as much as todays tempo.
To be honest the tempo run replicates that really sh**ty feeling of the last 10 mins of a race (where you promise yourself you will never subject your body to this torture again) so then when it comes to race day you are familiar with the feeling and know how to deal with it so it does'nt phase you.
Real lay-man thoughts on a tempo session so apologies to the more scientific amongst us.

I would be of the opinion that tempo runs are relatively comfortable so a long way away from what you feel at the end of a race.
Intense sessions with short recoveries would be more likely to replicate the end of race feeling.

Sosa

ss43 wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that tempo runs are relatively comfortable so a long way away from what you feel at the end of a race.
Intense sessions with short recoveries would be more likely to replicate the end of race feeling.

I find races easier than tempos...anyone else the same ?

Running Bing

While I dont think tempos should feel as tough as a race I do think they are bloody hard.


I always find it pretty mentally demanding having to hold that pace for the required time and I think the focus needed is another big benefit of tempo running.

I would describe my tempo runs as on the cusp of being horrible. You know that if you sped up a bit or had to do it a bit longer you could manage it but it would be really really awful:D

tisnotover

Running Bing wrote: »

While I dont think tempos should feel as tough as a race I do think they are bloody hard.


I always find it pretty mentally demanding having to hold that pace for the required time and I think the focus needed is another big benefit of tempo running.

I would describe my tempo runs as on the cusp of being horrible. You know that if you sped up a bit or had to do it a bit longer you could manage it but it would be really really awful:D

Real beginner to doing these tempo runs, but after a few find it real hard to stick to target pace.
but this shouldn't be the case, I mean when racing you also have a target pace, but somehow it feels easier to keep to?

Running Bing

tisnotover wrote: »

Real beginner to doing these tempo runs, but after a few find it real hard to stick to target pace.
but this shouldn't be the case, I mean when racing you also have a target pace, but somehow it feels easier to keep to?

I think the adrenalin helps a lot with racing. You tend to be a lot more focused in a race.

I like to do my tempo runs on a track to keep the pace consistent. Then you know all you have to do is run the next lap in xx seconds and its a lot easier to stay on pace.

I have also heard the key to a good tempo run is keeping a nice even intensity so the track helps with that and it also means no stopping for traffic or slowing for pedestrians which is not ideal on a tempo run.

Saw a video on flotrack before where a group of elite athletes where doing a tempo and one of them came across a $20 bill on the ground but ran straight by it as he refused to stop and jeopardise his tempo run.:D

ss43

Sosa wrote: »

I find races easier than tempos...anyone else the same ?

How? What's your race distance? If your race takes between 20mins and an hour a tempo is going to be slower than race pace and shorter than race distance which has to be easier. Even if your race distance is longer, surely the end of you race would be at a higher effort level than a tempo.

tisnotover wrote: »

Real beginner to doing these tempo runs, but after a few find it real hard to stick to target pace.
but this shouldn't be the case, I mean when racing you also have a target pace, but somehow it feels easier to keep to?

If you're only new to it, you'll probably get the hang of pacing after a while.

shels4ever

Running Bing wrote: »

I think the adrenalin helps a lot with racing. You tend to be a lot more focused in a race.

I like to do my tempo runs on a track to keep the pace consistent. Then you know all you have to do is run the next lap in xx seconds and its a lot easier to stay on pace.

I have also heard the key to a good tempo run is keeping a nice even intensity so the track helps with that and it also means no stopping for traffic or slowing for pedestrians which is not ideal on a tempo run.

Saw a video on flotrack before where a group of elite athletes where doing a tempo and one of them came across a $20 bill on the ground but ran straight by it as he refused to stop and jeopardise his tempo run.:D

I do my tempos on grass myself and usually sitck in a hill or two where possible , also change the route around ever week or two.

Sosa

ss43 wrote: »

How? What's your race distance? If your race takes between 20mins and an hour a tempo is going to be slower than race pace and shorter than race distance which has to be easier. Even if your race distance is longer, surely the end of you race would be at a higher effort level than a tempo.

I race all sorts of distances...and yes i race faster than my tempos.

I'm just saying that i can produce in a w/e race,with 200+ other people around me and i'm looking forward to it all week,little nervous beforehand and all that goes with it.
On the other hand i do tempos alone on a monday or tuesday for example.......and find it really hard to go say 30s a mile slower than my race pace for 4m.

I am sure there are others out there feel the same.

asimonov

Sosa wrote: »

I race all sorts of distances...and yes i race faster than my tempos.

I'm just saying that i can produce in a w/e race,with 200+ other people around me and i'm looking forward to it all week,little nervous beforehand and all that goes with it.
On the other hand i do tempos alone on a monday or tuesday for example.......and find it really hard to go say 30s a mile slower than my race pace for 4m.

I am sure there are others out there feel the same.

I'm 100% with you on this. it takes more effort for me to produce a 6:30 tempo mile than a 6:00 race mile.

Gringo78

asimonov wrote: »

I'm 100% with you on this. it takes more effort for me to produce a 6:30 tempo mile than a 6:00 race mile.

+1 to this. Sometimes if i haven't raced in a while i do a tempo and get disheartened thinking how the hell can i run 30sec a mile faster than this? And then i do.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

+1 to this. Sometimes if i haven't raced in a while i do a tempo and get disheartened thinking how the hell can i run 30sec a mile faster than this? And then i do.

+1 on this!

maybe it'd be easier if we weren't doing these runs alone, as said by Sosa with a big group of runners around ya, its much easier to find and hold the pace.

digme

Any practical advise someone could give me would be great i've no race times i only run 3 miles max on any given day how do i know if i do my threshold cruise intervals too fast? I read your threshold is at 88-92%hrm but I'm not a trained athlete.
i'm doing the red plan on Daniels running formula.

T runner

ss43 wrote: »

With regard to anaerobic threshold and its importance.

For marathon it's faster than race pace and should be developed early in the training plan and then once it's up to a decent level, the training shoul be aimed at reducing the pace difference between aerobic threshold (around 2mmol) and anaerobic threshold.

Interesting. This might explain some of Daniels sessions where M pace T pace and E pace are mixed.

Another session Ive heard of to develope AnT and then bring AT closer to AnT: is to do consecutive Kilometers--- every second one at lactate threshold and one K at an easier pace. To decide the starting easier pace in the first session use the equation that the combination of these two paces would equal current marathon race pace.

Over 4 weeks you try to improve the pace of the AnT kilometers to develop AnT. In the next 4 weeks you keep AnT constant and improve the pace of the slower Ks. This should have the effect of reducing marathon race pace by bringing AT closer to AnT.

john do

Don't know much about tempo runs, but the way I do it is find a race to do every week and use that as my tempo run, run every other run during the week at 6.30 pace. Can run 5.25 for 10 mile and h.m. Works for me. Be interested to hear if others are the same.