upc cancellation ripoff

chroma

Hi

I was using the 20mb for months on and I had to move recently, they said my new place is covered yada yada.. just to actually move and then discover it was not. I waited a few weeks until they figure out what was going on (kept paying anyway). At some point I receive a call saying there is no option for BB at the moment and I had no option but to disconnect. Give 30 days notice ok and left the direct debit going as (silly me) thought they would not abuse that. I was happy with the service anyway before that.

About a month later they charge me 48 quid, that's for the 30 day notice and fair enough (not too happy about it but ok) and I think we're done here. Nope. Check again about a week later, they charged again 106 quid this time. I ring them like WTF, they say it's 100 cancellation fee because you canceled before the end of your contract and such. I was never informed about that beforehand (sure would have canceled my direct debit then, silly me #2), they apologised and all but my 100 stayed with them. No refund.

Anyway, long story short I kept ringing and sending emails for a few weeks saying that is not covered under the voluntary disconnect in their contract since it's upc that could not provide any service despite initially saying they would. I was getting ignorant replies from them and they pretty much don't give a damn anymore. They never sent any bills in the post too, proving they really don't give a ****.

Not much of a rant here, more like a heads up. If you find yourself in a similar situation, just cancel your DD before things go bad. They can and they will abuse that. I won't be going back to upc in the future, they lost me as a customer forever.

kaimera

ouch.

had NTL in my old place and went to move it to the new gaff about 6 months into the contract but they didn't provide so waived the cancellation fee.

Wasn't coming from my bank account so cant check if they ever took more than the month for the 30 days notice

dub45

chroma wrote: »

Hi

I was using the 20mb for months on and I had to move recently, they said my new place is covered yada yada.. just to actually move and then discover it was not. I waited a few weeks until they figure out what was going on (kept paying anyway). At some point I receive a call saying there is no option for BB at the moment and I had no option but to disconnect. Give 30 days notice ok and left the direct debit going as (silly me) thought they would not abuse that. I was happy with the service anyway before that.

About a month later they charge me 48 quid, that's for the 30 day notice and fair enough (not too happy about it but ok) and I think we're done here. Nope. Check again about a week later, they charged again 106 quid this time. I ring them like WTF, they say it's 100 cancellation fee because you canceled before the end of your contract and such. I was never informed about that beforehand (sure would have canceled my direct debit then, silly me #2), they apologised and all but my 100 stayed with them. No refund.

Anyway, long story short I kept ringing and sending emails for a few weeks saying that is not covered under the voluntary disconnect in their contract since it's upc that could not provide any service despite initially saying they would. I was getting ignorant replies from them and they pretty much don't give a damn anymore. They never sent any bills in the post too, proving they really don't give a ****.

Not much of a rant here, more like a heads up. If you find yourself in a similar situation, just cancel your DD before things go bad. They can and they will abuse that. I won't be going back to upc in the future, they lost me as a customer forever.

Did they not send you an invoice 14 days in advance of those direct debits?

Under the dd scheme they should have given you 14 days notice. The purpose of this notice is to allow the bill payer to query any charges.

If you did not get this notice you should make a formal complaint to IPSO - full details at www.ipso.ie. Ask to speak to the manager of the direct debit scheme. He is convinced that it is the perfect scheme and nothing ever goes wrong with it.!!!

Without such notice you are entitled to claim that they took money from your account without your express agreement.

beefyjohn

You agreed to a contract with them and its probably in there terms and conditions that there is a cancellation fee. Its not there fault you have moved and they cant provide service to you. As far as they are concerned when you signed up for ther service you were going to remain for a min of a year and remain in that premises. You have moved forcing them to lose valuable income.

dub45

beefyjohn wrote: »

You agreed to a contract with them and its probably in there terms and conditions that there is a cancellation fee. Its not there fault you have moved and they cant provide service to you. As far as they are concerned when you signed up for ther service you were going to remain for a min of a year and remain in that premises. You have moved forcing them to lose valuable income.

What you say is more than likely the case but it does not remove the obligation from them to point this out clearly to the customer and notify the customer in advance of any deductions from their accounts.

You will also note that initially they appear to have claimed that the ops new location was covered.

UPC seem very unclear at times as to what areas are covered. It is quite incredible that they cannot tell people definitively what areas are covered.
For example their website clearly states that my own area (Kilmainham in D8) is bb enabled and yet the csrs tell me that it will be at least a year before it it is covered!!! Makes it very diffuclt to deal with an organisation if they do not know what's going on!

chroma

I never signed up to remain in the same premises, that's insane. If they could not provide any in the first place, one expects to be notified in advance. As far as I'm concerned I was scammed as many days as they could before they come back to me saying 'oh, see.. you're not covered after all', then scammed again because they never raised the cancellation fee matter before applying the charge.

@dub45

I have yet to receive the last two invoices from them and it's not like they're not aware of my new address.

kittenkiller

chroma wrote: »

I never signed up to remain in the same premises, that's insane. If they could not provide any in the first place, one expects to be notified in advance. As far as I'm concerned I was scammed as many days as they could before they come back to me saying 'oh, see.. you're not covered after all', then scammed again because they never raised the cancellation fee matter before applying the charge.

@dub45

I have yet to receive the last two invoices from them and it's not like they're not aware of my new address.

You should contact them and ask to be refunded for the period between you contacting them and the cancellation of your account. They should agree to this.
As for the cancellation fee, it's probably hidden somewhere in the terms and conditions that you clicked or signed. These companies cover themselves.

Hopefully you'll get something back from them though.

dub45

chroma wrote: »

I never signed up to remain in the same premises, that's insane. If they could not provide any in the first place, one expects to be notified in advance. As far as I'm concerned I was scammed as many days as they could before they come back to me saying 'oh, see.. you're not covered after all', then scammed again because they never raised the cancellation fee matter before applying the charge.

@dub45

I have yet to receive the last two invoices from them and it's not like they're not aware of my new address.

Please please ring IPSo and complain it is the only way that these companies will conform to their obligations under the dd scheme. I was complaining to IPSO about UPC not giving the correct notice a couple of months ago and at the time IPSO were working with them to help them!!!!! Incredible that a mulitnational company needs help to give 14 days notice!!!

Tel: +353 1 663 6740

_Sidhe_

On the second point of the UPC terms and conditions.

(The same ones that are on the docking slip that you signed when being installed, and the same ones that are on their website for all to see.)

2.6 If you move address, we will try, but shall be under no obligation, to provide you with the services at your new address if it is within our serviceable area. You will still be liable to pay the applicable charges in relation to the minimum period (as defined in paragraph 3) for the Services provided to your old address, even if you move from that address during the minimum period, or we do not provide you with the service at your new address, or if your new address is outside our servicable area. Where we are providing a broadband internet service and you move to another address within our servicable area, you must give us at least thirty (30) days' notice if you wish us to provide such service to your new address. Where we agree to provide the services to your new address, you shall pay us the applicable transfer of service charge. Details of our transfer of service charge are set out in our price list.


3.1 Unless otherwise stated in our price list or other documentation that we provide to you, the minimum peroid (the "minimum" period) of the services is twelve (12) months starting on the date we activate the services. You can only terminate this agreement during the minimum period as specifically detailed in this agreement, otherwise we may charge you a cancellation charge consisting of all relevant charges which would have been payable to the end of the minimum period plus any additional cancelation charges detailed in the price list or other documenation we provide you. If you want to cancel this agreement after the minimum period, one month's notice is required.

So basically, they did absoloutley everything that they say they do.
And you didn't read your terms and conditions.

They require one months notice to see if they can transfer your acc.
They are under no obligation to transfer you.
You are obliged to pay a cancelation fee.
Until the acc is transfered, your acc is still in the old address, so unless YOU ask them to send bills to the new address, they will keep on sending them to the old one.
Which I'm guessing they have done, and you didn't recieve as you never changed it.


You see there are a million different reasons UPC may not have been able to transfer your acc.
The estate may not be wired.
The owner of the building may not want it.
The estate/building owner may have an agreement with another provider.
It may be in an area where the council haven't given them permission to work.
Or it may simply not have been upgraded yet, or may never be if it's not financially viable.
If it's a new estate, the estate managers may have not freed up the connection to UPC yet.

UPC are in no way responsible if you move out of their area of service.

Always, always, read the terms and conditions of a contract.

chroma wrote: »

I never signed up to remain in the same premises, that's insane.

No it's the basic policy of every BB/TV/Telephone/Gas/Electricity provider in this or almost any other country!

chroma

..we may charge you a cancellation charge consisting of all relevant charges

Which is what? 10.. 100.. 1000? When do I get to know about it? After charging it maybe?

They are well aware of my new address and I did specifically requested any bills not to be posted to the old address.

dub45

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

On the second point of the UPC terms and conditions.

.....

Always, always, read the terms and conditions of a contract.


.......

It would be much easier to accept your argument if UPC adhered to terms and conditions. But up to recently in my direct experience they were on their own admission in clear breach of the terms of the direct debit system. Terms which they are well aware of when they sign up to participate. And a scheme which they fine customers who do not participate in!

So rules are ok for customers but not for UPC!!!! And of course when customers do not comply with terms and conditions UPC can impose charges as they wish - a course of action which is not open to a customer of course!!

How often have we read here of UPC forcing customers to accept calls from their technicians only for the technicians not to arrive? And what comeback has the customer got?

Also if it is the case that UPC accessed the ops account without giving any notice of the charges then that is theft pure and simple. The fact that someone may or may not owe a company money does not give that company the right to access that person's bank account.

Also it is quite extraordinary that UPC staff do not appear to know which areas of Dublin are actually covered!!!!

So come back and make the argument about terms and conditions when UPC themselves know how to comply with them and arrangements they have entered into.

_Sidhe_

chroma wrote: »

..we may charge you a cancellation charge consisting of all relevant charges

Which is what? 10.. 100.. 1000? When do I get to know about it? After charging it maybe?

They are well aware of my new address and I did specifically requested any bills not to be posted to the old address.

Wow not only do you not read the terms and condictions, you agreed to, you don't read the posts you're responding to either!!!

Allow me again.

we may charge you a cancellation charge consisting of all relevant charges which would have been payable to the end of the minimum period plus any additional cancelation charges detailed in the price list or other documenation we provide you

As you are now aware it is €100.
They have the right according to the terms and conditions taht you agreed you to charge you a lot more.


And asking them to transfer your services does not amount to changing your billing address.
If you did, seperately ask them to, then that's a seperate issue and not connected to the House Move which is what your post is about.



On my way home from work Dub, I'll read your post later.;)

chroma

So since you're so obsessed with the T&C's please point out where exactly I'm doing wrong paying for bills I have no advance notice of and yet still don't have any invoices posted to me. Why was the cancellation fee never mentioned in my calls beforehand?

As said, upc was well informed on my new address and that the old was no longer valid. I can imagine the bills definitely finding their way to my postbox if I had canceled my dd as soon as I moved house. :P

_Sidhe_

dub45 wrote: »

It would be much easier to accept your argument if UPC adhered to terms and conditions. But up to recently in my direct experience they were on their own admission in clear breach of the terms of the direct debit system. Terms which they are well aware of when they sign up to participate. And a scheme which they fine customers who do not participate in!

So rules are ok for customers but not for UPC!!!! And of course when customers do not comply with terms and conditions UPC can impose charges as they wish - a course of action which is not open to a customer of course!!

How often have we read here of UPC forcing customers to accept calls from their technicians only for the technicians not to arrive? And what comeback has the customer got?

Also if it is the case that UPC accessed the ops account without giving any notice of the charges then that is theft pure and simple. The fact that someone may or may not owe a company money does not give that company the right to access that person's bank account.

Also it is quite extraordinary that UPC staff do not appear to know which areas of Dublin are actually covered!!!!

So come back and make the argument about terms and conditions when UPC themselves know how to comply with them and arrangements they have entered into.

What recourse is there to customers?
How do UPC suffer?

By customers leaving, and forums like this encouraging peple not to join in the first place.
The same way all consumers have recourse against companies.

I'm not getting into a discussion on direct debit or billing however, as I know nothing abut it.
I've never had a problem with UPC or anyone else with a direct debit I've had (touch wood) so I can't account for it.

I have however had a change of address, that worked fine.

As I have shown above, the whole moval procedure is fully laid out in the terms and conditions, and the op would have been fully aware had he read them.

I'm sure we can both agree that everyone should read the terms and conditions before signing any contract.
If he had, this issue would never had happened in the first place.

_Sidhe_

chroma wrote: »

So since you're so obsessed with the T&C's please point out where exactly I'm doing wrong paying for bills I have no advance notice of and yet still don't have any invoices posted to me. Why was the cancellation fee never mentioned in my calls beforehand?

As said, upc was well informed on my new address and that the old was no longer valid. I can imagine the bills definitely finding their way to my postbox if I had canceled my dd as soon as I moved house. :P

But advance notice was sent.
As I said twice now, unless you expressly asked them to change your billing address, seperately to the house move request, your address is still the one that you agreed to service in.
While changing your billing address is part of moving your address, seeing as the house move never went ahead, the address was never changed.

I you never asked them (again seperately) to change your address, or didn't arrange for your mail to be forwarded, then UPC aren't going to go out of their way to chase you down.

As with any large company, their billing system would be automatic.
They issue and post bills to hundreds of thousands of customers a month.
Unsurprisingly, they're not all hand written and peronalised.
Your account and address is on a system, and that system automatically generates and sends out the bill.
So it was sent.

And when you agreed to a 12 month contract, you agreed to to the cancelation fee.

I'll try and say this clearly, as you don't seem to be picking this up.

Every company has an in-contract cancelation fee.
That's one of the reasons why they call it a contract.

You agreed to this, it's up to you to read it.
As nice a it may be, UPC aren't going to call over an read their terms and conditions to you.
Same way no company is.
If they did, when you called up to order the service originally, the phone call would last over an hour!

MOH

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

On the second point of the UPC terms and conditions.

(The same ones that are on the docking slip that you signed when being installed, and the same ones that are on their website for all to see.)

So basically, they did absoloutley everything that they say they do.
And you didn't read your terms and conditions.

From the T+Cs you quoted

Where we are providing a broadband internet service and you move to another address within our servicable area, you must give us at least thirty (30) days' notice if you wish us to provide such service to your new address. Where we agree to provide the services to your new address, you shall pay us the applicable transfer of service charge. Details of our transfer of service charge are set out in our price list.

They told the OP the new address was within a serviceable area, and agreed to transfer the service. So the OP is liable for a "transfer of service" charge. If they then decide they can't provide service there after previously agreeing that they could, that's their problem, not the OPs.

_Sidhe_

MOH wrote: »

From the T+Cs you quoted

They told the OP the new address was within a serviceable area, and agreed to transfer the service. So the OP is liable for a "transfer of service" charge. If they then decide they can't provide service there after previously agreeing that they could, that's their problem, not the OPs.

From the T & C's I posted.
(In the very first line no less)

If you move address, we will try, but shall be under no obligation, to provide you with the services at your new address if it is within our serviceable area.

They told him the area was serviced.
This does not mean they agreed to transfer.
They are within their right to say no even if it is serviced.
They told him mistakenly that it was serviced, but were wrong.
As I said tehre are dozens of reasons this can happen.

The OP could have moved into a building where the management don't allow UPC, even though the area is serviced.
It could be a new estate where the estate managers are yet to open the cables up to UPC etc.

It's unfortunate, and not the OP's fault, but it's not neccesaraly UPC's fault either.


Trust me when I say, ALL companies cover their asses for all eventualities in their terms and conditions.

kittenkiller

OP, it sucks, but you entered into a contract that you didn't read.

Build a bridge and get over it the stress it's causing you isn't worth it.

dub45

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

But advance notice was sent.

How do you know this?

And if a company no matter who they are is in correspondence with somebody and the subject of that correspondence is a change of address then surely to God it is up to the company to keep its records updated? I am sure that if the op had not been paying his dds then UPC would have been magically able to come up with the new address!

_Sidhe_

dub45 wrote: »

How do you know this?

And if a company no matter who they are is in correspondence with somebody and the subject of that correspondence is a change of address then surely to God it is up to the company to keep its records updated? I am sure that if the op had not been paying his dds then UPC would have been magically able to come up with the new address!

Because they have an automated billing system that sends bills to hundreds of thousands of customers automatically every month.
They'd have to physically stop the bill being sent out.

So unless you're saying there was a mix up in the automated service, and it happened to not send an invoice to this one customer, this one time (twice in a row), and this happened to occur while he was trying a house move, then while theoretically possible, it'd a wee bit beyond the realms of probability.



And legally they can't update a persons billing address without the express permission of the bank account holder due to the Data Protection Act.
It's illegal for any company to alter the billing address without a request from the direct debit account holder

So as I've said about 5 times here already, unless the OP asked them SEPERATELY from the request to transfer his SERVICE ADDRESS it is illegal for UPC to transfer his BILLING ADDRESS.


UPC never carried out a house move.
Changing the billing address is part of the house move, but as stated in the terms and conditions, it may take up to 30 days to discover if a house move is possible.
When they discovered that it wasn't possible, the change was cancelled, which means that UPC were legally obliged to continue sending the the bills to the official address.


I've moved a few times in the last few years, and I've transferred a number of services.
BB/TV/Phone/Electricity etc.
Every time it is my responsibility to look after the move, not the providers, as I am choosing to move.


You can argue that maybe the UPC agent should have went out of their way to advise the customer that he should set up a forward on mail to the old address, but I can argue much more succinctly, that it's up the the person moving address to look after their own affairs.

dub45

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Because they have an automated billing system that sends bills to hundreds of thousands of customers automatically every month.
They'd have to physically stop the bill being sent out.

Yes but we are not talking about a routine bill here. And UPC doesnt automatically send out bills to all of its customers. For example it only sends them out to dd customers when the due amount varies and it is therefore required to give notice to the customer under the direct debit system.

Of course on its own admission it has not always complied with the dd rules so who can say what might have happened?

A cancellation fee bill would surely not be automated and would require direct intervention by a csr so this may not have gone out either?

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

So unless you're saying there was a mix up in the automated service, and it happened to not send an invoice to this one customer, this one time (twice in a row), and this happened to occur while he was trying a house move, then while theoretically possible, it'd a wee bit beyond the realms of probability.

Given that a house move was on the cards a cancellation fee was in the air etc etc it is quite possible that something could go wrong even with the wonderful UPC. After all this company that you constantly defend and know so much about have been chronically incapable of arranging for techs to call out to people on appointed days never mind even appointed times. That surely cant be that difficult? They apparently cant arrange a system whereby their internet site can tell people correctly what services are available to them. That cant be that difficult either:rolleyes:

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

And legally they can't update a persons billing address without the express permission of the bank account holder due to the Data Protection Act.
It's illegal for any company to alter the billing address without a request from the direct debit account holder

So as I've said about 5 times here already, unless the OP asked them SEPERATELY from the request to transfer his SERVICE ADDRESS it is illegal for UPC to transfer his BILLING ADDRESS.

Is there anything to stop them having a correspondence address for a customer? Is there anything to stop a csr making sure that the customer is aware of the requirement to inform them 'seperately' of the change of address. If a customer mentions several times to a csr about changing address and even gives that address to check if bb is available it logically may not occur to that customer that he still neeeds to provide that information seperately.

I stil think that if the dd had not been paid UPC would have had no bother tracking down the customer:rolleyes:

_Sidhe_

dub45 wrote: »

Yes but we are not talking about a routine bill here. And UPC doesnt automatically send out bills to all of its customers. For example it only sends them out to dd customers when the due amount varies and it is therefore required to give notice to the customer under the direct debit system.

Of course on its own admission it has not always complied with the dd rules so who can say what might have happened?

A cancellation fee bill would surely not be automated and would require direct intervention by a csr so this may not have gone out either?

Yes we are talking about a routine bill.
Do you know how a billing system works?!!!!!
All companies use an automated billing system that calculates how much is due based on the services charged on an account.
A bill is generated on a specific day, and the total amount is posted and the bill generated.
This is then dispatched to the customer.
This is how bills that vary in price are generated without manual intervention.
If somebody is closing an account.
The close order is put through.
On a specific day, the account closes, and another last invoice is AUTOMATICALLY sent out.
Do you seriously think that this is all done manually in this day and age?!!
Also, as you pointed out, they don't automatically send bills to customers with Direct Debits unless there is a change to the billing amount (which there would be with a closing invoice hence me saying it was sent out), but every invoice is available on their website the day it's generated.
So again, there was no problem with the customer being unable to check his ballance, or bill amount.
He just CHOOSE not to.

dub45 wrote:

Given that a house move was on the cards a cancellation fee was in the air etc etc it is quite possible that something could go wrong even with the wonderful UPC. After all this company that you constantly defend and know so much about have been chronically incapable of arranging for techs to call out to people on appointed days never mind even appointed times. That surely cant be that difficult? They apparently cant arrange a system whereby their internet site can tell people correctly what services are available to them. That cant be that difficult either:rolleyes:

You have an obsession my friend.
We're talking about house moves here, and closing accounts.
But you bring up completely seperate Direct Debit issues from another time, and tech call outs.
Get over it.
You hate UPC, we get it.:rolleyes:

dub45 wrote:

Is there anything to stop them having a correspondence address for a customer? Is there anything to stop a csr making sure that the customer is aware of the requirement to inform them 'seperately' of the change of address. If a customer mentions several times to a csr about changing address and even gives that address to check if bb is available it logically may not occur to that customer that he still neeeds to provide that information seperately.

I stil think that if the dd had not been paid UPC would have had no bother tracking down the customer:rolleyes:

Again, you show very little knowledge of what the Data Protection Act is, and how it works.
I'll try again.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR UPC TO CHANGE THE BILLING ADDRESS WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF THE DIRECT DEBIT HOLDER.

Illegal.
As in against the law.
As in they can't do it.

Quite often the billing address won't be the same as the service address.
Quite often the direct debit holder won't be the account holder.
UPC can't change the corispondant address without changing the billing address.
As you point out there are very strict guidlines for Direct Debits in this country.
I love how within the space of one post you give out about UPC for not following the laws regarding Direct Debits, but then a few lines later say that they should break the same laws.

FFS like!:rolleyes:




I know all this as I used to work in the billing department of a similar sized company.
Part of my job was drawing up memos to be sent to CSR's telling them exactly what they can and can't do in relation to changing any details in relation to Direct Debits.

I spent over a year ensuring that people didn't make the changes that you're trying to imply the UPC agent should have made.

dub45

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Yes we are talking about a routine bill.
Do you know how a billing system works?!!!!!
All companies use an automated billing system that calculates how much is due based on the services charged on an account.
A bill is generated on a specific day, and the total amount is posted and the bill generated.
This is then dispatched to the customer.
This is how bills that vary in price are generated without manual intervention.
If somebody is closing an account.
The close order is put through.
On a specific day, the account closes, and another last invoice is AUTOMATICALLY sent out.
Do you seriously think that this is all done manually in this day and age?!!

There are none so blind as those who will not see. Your blind faith in systems is touching. You also continue to state things in relation to the ops account which you can only presume. You don't know the ops name presumably and you dont have access to upc's systems presumably so you can only presume that bills were sent out and mistakes weren't made. Mistakes happen no matter how wonderful the system!!!

Within the last couple of months on two successive occasions dd's from Bord Gais hit my account without any warning and out of sync with my normal billing date. In both cases they apologised profusely gave me a refund and told me they had no explanation for how the system had behaved that way.
While there are only too many people on boards and elsewhere who can tell you the wonders of BT's billing system. Both of these systems are I am sure fully automated.:rolleyes:

For example it takes a manual intervention to tell the system that an account has been closed?

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

You have an obsession my friend.
We're talking about house moves here, and closing accounts.
But you bring up completely seperate Direct Debit issues from another time, and tech call outs.
Get over it.
You hate UPC, we get it.:rolleyes:

You are writing ex cathedra about the wonders of UPC's billing system. And I am simply using the examples of their non compliance with the dd system, their inability to put a system in place which will ensure that their techs consistently turn up when they say they will (and which requires people to take time of work etc etc) or even to come up with a system to ensure that their own website gives accurate information as to which services are available where. Hardly too much to ask of any company? My point is that if UPC cannot effect systems in relation to the above then it is not unreasonable to question their other systems. Particularly when the defense in this case is based on presumption of events rather than knowledge.

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Again, you show very little knowledge of what the Data Protection Act is, and how it works.
I'll try again.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR UPC TO CHANGE THE BILLING ADDRESS WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF THE DIRECT DEBIT HOLDER.

Illegal.
As in against the law.
As in they can't do it.

Quite often the billing address won't be the same as the service address.
Quite often the direct debit holder won't be the account holder.
UPC can't change the corispondant address without changing the billing address.
As you point out there are very strict guidlines for Direct Debits in this country.
I love how within the space of one post you give out about UPC for not following the laws regarding Direct Debits, but then a few lines later say that they should break the same laws.

FFS like!:rolleyes:

I cannot see why UPC cannot have a correspondence address for a customer.
Indeed the various points you make above would seem to make it essential to have that information.

So why can UPC not have a correspondence address and a billing address?

You appear at this stage to be having hallucinations as you are seeing things in my posts that are simply not there. Your passion for all things UPC is overwhelming you I am afraid.

I don't say anywhere in my posts that UPC should break the law. I pointed out that it might be a good idea for a csr to point out to a customer that they have to tell UPC specifically to change a billing address.

Is there anything to stop a csr making sure that the customer is aware of the requirement to inform them 'seperately' of the change of address. If a customer mentions several times to a csr about changing address and even gives that address to check if bb is available it logically may not occur to that customer that he still needs to provide that information seperately.

And in terms of the accuracy of your reading of my posts I haven't pointed out in any of my posts in this thread there are very strict guidelines in relation to the dd system in this country. That would imply that there might be a penalty for any company that didn't comply with them. And pigs will have flown to the moon before that ever happens I can assure you!

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

I know all this as I used to work in the billing department of a similar sized company.
Part of my job was drawing up memos to be sent to CSR's telling them exactly what they can and can't do in relation to changing any details in relation to Direct Debits.

I spent over a year ensuring that people didn't make the changes that you're trying to imply the UPC agent should have made.

Given that you do not work in UPC you can only presume what you continue to post as fact because of your experience in another company. And as anyone with any modicum of experience will tell you no two companies are exactly alike.
And yet again you hallucinate I have never implied that a UPC agent should have made a change.

And by the way here are some great examples of how well UPC's 'systems' work. Post no 19 is especially interesting.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/pricewatch/2008/01/07/yet-more-problems-with-ntl/#comment-6620

chroma

Sidhe you just assume too much. I've moved house before with UPC and I just had to make a single phone call. Call logged with reference no. date set and all. Bills found their way and no special instructions separately given. I guess I was lucky.

_Sidhe_

chroma wrote: »

Sidhe you just assume too much. I've moved house before with UPC and I just had to make a single phone call. Call logged with reference no. date set and all. Bills found their way and no special instructions separately given. I guess I was lucky.

No I assume nothing, that's exactly how the system works.
I did say that the changing of the billing address is part of the house move process.

So if the House Move is successfull, then the billing address is changed.

If it's not, then it's not.

_Sidhe_

dub45 wrote: »

There are none so blind as those who will not see. Your blind faith in systems is touching. You also continue to state things in relation to the ops account which you can only presume. You don't know the ops name presumably and you dont have access to upc's systems presumably so you can only presume that bills were sent out and mistakes weren't made. Mistakes happen no matter how wonderful the system!!!

Within the last couple of months on two successive occasions dd's from Bord Gais hit my account without any warning and out of sync with my normal billing date. In both cases they apologised profusely gave me a refund and told me they had no explanation for how the system had behaved that way.
While there are only too many people on boards and elsewhere who can tell you the wonders of BT's billing system. Both of these systems are I am sure fully automated.:rolleyes:


For example it takes a manual intervention to tell the system that an account has been closed?

So because BT's and Bord Gais' systems have been known to go wrong, so that means UPC's has?
And the fact that it goes right on hundreds of thousands of accounts a month, means that it's better to assume it has gone wrong, than to assume it has worked?

You know what the law of averages is?!:rolleyes:


And as for not seeing things, allow me to quote myself.

Because they have an automated billing system that sends bills to hundreds of thousands of customers automatically every month.
They'd have to physically stop the bill being sent out.

So unless you're saying there was a mix up in the automated service, and it happened to not send an invoice to this one customer, this one time (twice in a row), and this happened to occur while he was trying a house move, then while theoretically possible, it'd a wee bit beyond the realms of probability.

Of course it's possible that something could have gone wrong, but it is far more probable that it didn't.
It's possible that a UFO will crash land on the Loch Ness Monsters head, and then Elvis will walk out of the wreckage, but I think it's fair to assume that's not going to happen.

I assume that the bill was sent, because that's the normal.

You assume that the bill wasn't sent, cause it's possible that it may not have been!

:rolleyes:

dub45 wrote:

You are writing ex cathedra about the wonders of UPC's billing system. And I am simply using the examples of their non compliance with the dd system, their inability to put a system in place which will ensure that their techs consistently turn up when they say they will (and which requires people to take time of work etc etc) or even to come up with a system to ensure that their own website gives accurate information as to which services are available where. Hardly too much to ask of any company? My point is that if UPC cannot effect systems in relation to the above then it is not unreasonable to question their other systems. Particularly when the defense in this case is based on presumption of events rather than knowledge.

Companies buy a liscence to a billing system, that is created by somebody else.
And that system does all the work.

When they are booking service calls etc, any problems with that are to do with human errors.
If they have a crap set-up for service calls, then that is due to the system they use, or techs that they use.

Billing systems are purchased off programming companies, and run themselves.

Completely different kettle of fish.

dub45 wrote:

I cannot see why UPC cannot have a correspondence address for a customer.
Indeed the various points you make above would seem to make it essential to have that information.

So why can UPC not have a correspondence address and a billing address?

Cause legally the billing address has to be the address for the DD account holder.
Why would they have a service address, a billing address, and a corespondant address?
A lot of people don't seem to understand this, but the DPA is very strict in relation to Direct Debits.
You are not supposed to have a different billing address to the acc holder of the Direct Debit.
All corespondances from the company are going to go to the one address.
Adding another address confuses the matter, and could lead to the kind of problems that you're describing!

dub45 wrote:

You appear at this stage to be having hallucinations as you are seeing things in my posts that are simply not there. Your passion for all things UPC is overwhelming you I am afraid.

I don't say anywhere in my posts that UPC should break the law. I pointed out that it might be a good idea for a csr to point out to a customer that they have to tell UPC specifically to change a billing address.

It is against the law.
You're suggesting that a "good CSR" do something that in this country it is illegal do to.

dub45 wrote:

And in terms of the accuracy of your reading of my posts I haven't pointed out in any of my posts in this thread there are very strict guidelines in relation to the dd system in this country. That would imply that there might be a penalty for any company that didn't comply with them. And pigs will have flown to the moon before that ever happens I can assure you!

So now the enforcement of penalties relating to the DPA is UPC's responsibility too!

Wow.

You'll be blaming them for the rain next!!!

dub45 wrote:

Given that you do not work in UPC you can only presume what you continue to post as fact because of your experience in another company. And as anyone with any modicum of experience will tell you no two companies are exactly alike.
And yet again you hallucinate I have never implied that a UPC agent should have made a change.

So you're saying that my familiarity with the LAW has no bearing in this, as it's a different company?!
Damn, here I was thinkning that the LAW is the same irrespective of which company it is.

dub45 wrote:

And by the way here are some great examples of how well UPC's 'systems' work. Post no 19 is especially interesting.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/pricewatch/2008/01/07/yet-more-problems-with-ntl/#comment-6620

Hey, I've got a more valid post for you.


Chroma - I've moved house before with UPC and I just had to make a single phone call. Call logged with reference no. date set and all. Bills found their way and no special instructions separately given.

And seeing as I've moved before with the same level of effort, I can say that no Chroma, you weren't just lucky.

The OP was unlucky.

Exceptions don't make the rule.

dub45

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

So because BT's and Bord Gais' systems have been known to go wrong, so that means UPC's has?
And the fact that it goes right on hundreds of thousands of accounts a month, means that it's better to assume it has gone wrong, than to assume it has worked?

You know what the law of averages is?!:rolleyes:


And as for not seeing things, allow me to quote myself.

Because they have an automated billing system that sends bills to hundreds of thousands of customers automatically every month.
They'd have to physically stop the bill being sent out.

So unless you're saying there was a mix up in the automated service, and it happened to not send an invoice to this one customer, this one time (twice in a row), and this happened to occur while he was trying a house move, then while theoretically possible, it'd a wee bit beyond the realms of probability.

Of course it's possible that something could have gone wrong, but it is far more probable that it didn't.
It's possible that a UFO will crash land on the Loch Ness Monsters head, and then Elvis will walk out of the wreckage, but I think it's fair to assume that's not going to happen.

I assume that the bill was sent, because that's the normal.

You assume that the bill wasn't sent, cause it's possible that it may not have been!

:rolleyes:

Firstly I have never said that the bill wasn't sent. I have challenged you on the basis that you have stated several times categorically that it was sent. I have pointed out to you that without direct knowledge you have no basis for this statement.

I quote the example of Bord Gais and BT in an obviously futile attempt to make you realise that systems go wrong!

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Companies buy a liscence to a billing system, that is created by somebody else.
And that system does all the work.

When they are booking service calls etc, any problems with that are to do with human errors.
If they have a crap set-up for service calls, then that is due to the system they use, or techs that they use.

Billing systems are purchased off programming companies, and run themselves.

Completely different kettle of fish.

You have an extraordinary view of what systems are! Systems cannot function without inputs so those inputs are integral to the efficiency of the system. You appear to exclude any errors that can be made during inputs from the running of the system. So great system pity about the humans that input stuff or forget to input stuff and so on.

Billing systems are no different from any other system in that they are dependent on human input. Bought in systems are often adapted for particular firm's requirements. They have to be adapted as company requirements evolve - all these things offer ample scope for error.

No system runs itself that is utter nonsense!

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Cause legally the billing address has to be the address for the DD account holder.

Could you tell me exactly what legislation covers this?

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Why would they have a service address, a billing address, and a corespondant address?

Because for example you could have someone who originally sets up an account and then decides to let the house or maybe just not occupy the house for a period. He keeps the account in his name because the move is say for six months. So the tells UPC he is now living in Barcelona at Las Ramblas xxxx if they wish to contact him during that period.

A very considerate customer keeping a company informed of where he can be contacted in the case of problems. He is not changing his banking arrangements. And you are telling me that UPC cannot cope with such consideration?

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

A lot of people don't seem to understand this, but the DPA is very strict in relation to Direct Debits.
You are not supposed to have a different billing address to the acc holder of the Direct Debit.
All corespondances from the company are going to go to the one address.
Adding another address confuses the matter, and could lead to the kind of problems that you're describing!

Can you point out to me the terms of the DPA covering direct debits? I would be only too happy to read it.

Surely any half baked system can hold several addresses for different customers for different purposes?

In this day and age with people being so mobile it seems eminently sensible to me to have the facility to hold a correspondence address for someone.

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

It is against the law.
You're suggesting that a "good CSR" do something that in this country it is illegal do to.

You have come up with a fair bit of rubbish in the course of this thread but this and next point you make really take the biscuit.

I will quote myself here just to remind any poor soul who might still be reading this thread what you are claiming to be illegal

Is there anything to stop a csr making sure that the customer is aware of the requirement to inform them 'seperately' of the change of address. If a customer mentions several times to a csr about changing address and even gives that address to check if bb is available it logically may not occur to that customer that he still needs to provide that information seperately.

So can you tell me under what legislation it is against the law for csr to say something along the lines 'Sir if you wish to change your address on the system you must inform us separately to this conversation''

It seems like good customer service to me.

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

So now the enforcement of penalties relating to the DPA is UPC's responsibility too!

Wow.

You'll be blaming them for the rain next!!!

Wow indeed:rolleyes:

Again I better remind people of what I actually wrote:

Originally Posted by dub45
And in terms of the accuracy of your reading of my posts I haven't pointed out in any of my posts in this thread there are very strict guidelines in relation to the dd system in this country. That would imply that there might be a penalty for any company that didn't comply with them. And pigs will have flown to the moon before that ever happens I can assure you!

I cannot for the life of me understand how you could interpret this as meaning that UPC should be enforcing the DPA??????? Yes let UPC comply with the requirements of the DD Scheme - but they need help with that ......

Anyone familiar with any aspects of the dd system in Ireland (as many people who participate in this forum would be) would know (sadly many from experience) that there is nothing strict in terms of enforcement of the dd system in Ireland. The only ones treated 'strictly' are the unfortunately bill payers while companies can and do behave with impunity. For the record IPSO have confirmed for me that no company has ever been expelled from the scheme and we are all aware of the excesses of companies over many years. So companies have absolutely nothing to fear if they don't comply with the scheme. So that is why I would never point out that there are 'strict' guidelines etc etc.

And again for the record UPC up to recently were not complying with one of the basic terms of the dd scheme i.e. giving 14 days notice to bill payers. And what was happening about this? IPSO were meeting with them to 'help' them comply! So their 'perfect' billing system was falling down on such a basic requirement:rolleyes:

However if a bill payer misses a dd payment they are immediately zapped with a charge by UPC. No sitting down with IPSO and a nice cup of coffee and a friendly helpful chat for the bill payer.

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

So you're saying that my familiarity with the LAW has no bearing in this, as it's a different company?!
Damn, here I was thinkning that the LAW is the same irrespective of which company it is.

Unfortunately there is no evidence in your posts of any familiarity with the law and your increasingly wild claims of things that are illegal just confirm this.

_Sidhe_ wrote: »

Hey, I've got a more valid post for you.


Chroma - I've moved house before with UPC and I just had to make a single phone call. Call logged with reference no. date set and all. Bills found their way and no special instructions separately given.

And seeing as I've moved before with the same level of effort, I can say that no Chroma, you weren't just lucky.

The OP was unlucky.

Exceptions don't make the rule.

Unfortunately you do not appear to have noticed that Chroma is the op! He just made the mistake of thinking that what he had experienced in the past would happen again. 'Unlucky' indeed!

Karmafaerie

Damn this always happens.

_Sidhe_

Yeah, I'm out.
I'm not even going to bother reading that Dub.
Simply not worth it.

You go back to checking under your bed for the UPC bogey man.

I'll go back to enjoying my 20MB Broadband and healthy bank balance.