They'll do better next time....

Amabokke

....the famous words from the media and Lions management after Saturdays test match. How come they were not better in the first test? The test was theirs for the taking. Now, they have handed the boks a match advantage and believe it the boks are like an old car not running for awhile but once the engine got oiled and started it's going to continue to run smoothly. The boks have just been woken up from their big sleep.

This is not only the Lions media but also from the SA media. Who does these media "guru's" think they are? I bet you 90% of them have never even really hold a rugby ball in their hands. But they are the ones we listen too, the ones that gets our attention because of the very poor predictions they make and we believe it.

After every game we have to hear the Lions will get better next time, they can definitely win the second test and the series, they've learned from their mistakes and won't do it again, they will improve, the boks are theirs for the taking.....BUT when is next time? Maybe in the year 2021? Is that what we are waiting for?

Why does the Lions supporters not get passionatly mad and angry and demand from their team to win this series? And not to jump on the bandwagon "oh they will do better next test"

I don't see anywhere where the Lions management get blamed in the media or on boards. Everyone seems to blame Vickery, Monye and the fact that there is 2 more Welsh players than the Irish in the start-up. Everyone wants more Irish players in the starting team? When you get beaten in the second test what then? Scottish players to the rescue?

The famous rush defence from Edwards, the excellent skills from a Kiwi Gatland who won first 6N in charge, the Scottish Ian who we all know have a few tricks up his sleave and a good record, where was any of that on Sat? Instead the ref gets blamed.

It's time for the Lions supporters to stand up and demand from the Lions management anything less than a win is not acceptable.

We bok supporters demand it and we get it. PDV poor decisions on Sat and he got slated even though we won. We will not blame our players or the provinces, we will put the blame in front of PDV.

Requiem4adream

Amabokke wrote: »

Why does the Lions supporters not get passionatly mad and angry and demand from their team to win this series? And not to jump on the bandwagon "oh they will do better next test"

I don't see anywhere where the Lions management get blamed in the media or on boards. Everyone seems to blame Vickery, Monye and the fact that there is 2 more Welsh players than the Irish in the start-up.

It's time for the Lions supporters to stand up and demand from the Lions management anything less than a win is not acceptable.

The reason we're not up in arms with the management is simple, although i'll disagree with you by saying that most fair minded people felt the coaches made a mistake not taking Vickery off earlier (the 4 minute run out in 2nd half was particularly pointless and costly).

Back to the reason - Geech and his staff have 6 weeks to take players from 4 different countries, gel them as a squad, as a group of people etc. It's a different kettle of fish to say someone like Eddie O' Sullivan who had years and years with a good bunch of players. National team coaches rightly take more flak and better is demanded of them because they have very few excuses.

"Demanding a win" from a relatively scratch team against the World Champions is a little on the silly side. The Lions is such an enjoyable experience made all the more so by the fact we're underdogs and nothing is expected of us in the Tests. Personally i enjoy it far more than if i was sat here expecting a win.

Amabokke

Requiem4adream wrote: »

"Demanding a win" from a relatively scratch team against the World Champions is a little on the silly side. The Lions is such an enjoyable experience made all the more so by the fact we're underdogs and nothing is expected of us in the Tests. Personally i enjoy it far more than if i was sat here expecting a win.

It's not a scratch team, they've been together for 6 weeks and won all their provincial matches. Every players has also played respectively for their country and are good experienced players.

The boks played together the last time in Nov08 and all haven't played since after the S14 final until first test, which was 6 weeks.

We've all been told the Lions were ready, well prepared, enough game time and that boks lack gametime.

Everything is expected from the Lions. You honestly think people would want to watch it if they are def going to loose all their matches? doubt it.

Stealdo

Don't you know Amabokke? The Lions concept is simply a way of allowing the Celtic Nations to renew their animosity towards the English every four years. Normally this consists of a team made up nearly entirely of Englishmen, then when they lose the Irish, Welsh and Scots can spend the next two years lamenting the fact that it was English players picked.

It's been a little different this year because England have been so bad over the last 5/6 years, so instead they picked mostly Irish/Welsh players but threw in a few Englishmen to sabotage it. You don't think it's a co-incidence do you that the three places the Lions really lose the 1st test were scrums (Vickery), Lineouts (Mears) and Dropping balls when over the line (Monye).

"Winning a test match for a Lion is the ultimate irrelevant" - Jim Telfer 1997

Stev_o

Stealdo wrote: »

Don't you know Amabokke? The Lions concept is simply a way of allowing the Celtic Nations to renew their animosity towards the English every four years. Normally this consists of a team made up nearly entirely of Englishmen, then when they lose the Irish, Welsh and Scots can spend the next two years lamenting the fact that it was English players picked.

It's been a little different this year because England have been so bad over the last 5/6 years, so instead they picked mostly Irish/Welsh players but threw in a few Englishmen to sabotage it. You don't think it's a co-incidence do you that the three places the Lions really lose the 1st test were scrums (Vickery), Lineouts (Mears) and Dropping balls when over the line (Monye).

"Winning a test match for a Lion is the ultimate irrelevant" - Jim Telfer 1997

Individuals don't loose a games, teams do. :rolleyes:

Stealdo

Stev_o wrote: »

Individuals don't loose a games, teams do. :rolleyes:

oh ffs

Amabokke

Stev_o wrote: »

Individuals don't loose a games, teams do. :rolleyes:

Beg to differ, Vickery and Monye cost you the game. If that was Lions of 2005 and two Irish players did that they would've been chopped, bagged and send home.

devereaux17

There should be a European Lions team instead, would be far better and then we could stop hearing the 'British and Irish Lions' I hate that phrase:mad:

Stev_o

Stealdo wrote: »

oh ffs

Well you seem to be letting alot of other culprits out, AWJ, Stephen Jones, Mike "Im as slow as a snail" Philips and more so to come to the conclusion that 3 guys cost us the game is petty and imo stupid.

Stealdo

Stev_o wrote: »

Well you seem to be letting alot of other culprits out, AWJ, Stephen Jones, Mike "Im as slow as a snail" Philips and more so to come to the conclusion that 3 guys cost us the game is petty and imo stupid.

Stev_o - at what point reading my post did you think to yourself - this is obviously a serious opinion that must be rebuked?

The OP is obviously on the wind up and as usual people are biting left right and centre - he'll be back now in a minute to tell us that he's deadly serious. My post is giving his the response it deserves. I thought the intent was pretty obvious.

Stev_o

Stealdo wrote: »

Stev_o - at what point reading my post did you think to yourself - this is obviously a serious opinion that must be rebuked?

The OP is obviously on the wind up and as usual people are biting left right and centre - he'll be back now in a minute to tell us that he's deadly serious. My post is giving his the response it deserves. I thought the intent was pretty obvious.

Tbh iv given up reading his long post as they all sound the same bar a few so apologies if i took your post seriously

Stealdo

Stev_o wrote: »

Tbh iv given up reading his long post as they all sound the same bar a few so apologies if i took your post seriously

No worries - I'll turn the sarcasm up to 11 next time.

ALH-06

devereaux17 wrote: »

There should be a European Lions team instead, would be far better and then we could stop hearing the 'British and Irish Lions' I hate that phrase:mad:

NOOO NEVER! No way...

Rubbish suggestion, a four-nation Lions side is difficult enough to bring together without the language & culture barriers of bringing in French / Italian players etc.

This idea will never be entertained, and thank god for that!

nacho libre

devereaux17 wrote: »

There should be a European Lions team instead, would be far better and then we could stop hearing the 'British and Irish Lions' I hate that phrase:mad:

well, it would be nice to see one of if not the best number eight in the world play in a good side for a change and have a chance of winning something. how we could have done with the great Parisse last Saturday.

Noffles

I heard the Lions called The Irish and British Lions on the radio this morning... I could of smashed the radio in... since f*cking when have they been called that!!!!!

Crash

2001 - and the British and Irish Lions rather than the other way round.

Noffles

Crash wrote: »

2001 - and the British and Irish Lions rather than the other way round.

Haha, I'm well aware of that it was just the intentional way that it was reveresed that's all..

crisco10

Noffles wrote: »

I heard the Lions called The Irish and British Lions on the radio this morning... I could of smashed the radio in... since f*cking when have they been called that!!!!!

Today Fm have been doing that all tour. it sounds so contrived!

Crash

Noffles wrote: »

Haha, I'm well aware of that it was just the intentional way that it was reveresed that's all..

Ah right, apologies Yeah thats a bit silly alright. Anyhoo.

Noffles

crisco10 wrote: »

Today Fm have been doing that all tour. it sounds so contrived!

Yup, that was the radio station all right, clowns.

twinytwo

Amabokke wrote: »

....the famous words from the media and Lions management after Saturdays test match. How come they were not better in the first test? The test was theirs for the taking. Now, they have handed the boks a match advantage and believe it the boks are like an old car not running for awhile but once the engine got oiled and started it's going to continue to run smoothly. The boks have just been woken up from their big sleep.

This is not only the Lions media but also from the SA media. Who does these media "guru's" think they are? I bet you 90% of them have never even really hold a rugby ball in their hands. But they are the ones we listen too, the ones that gets our attention because of the very poor predictions they make and we believe it.

After every game we have to hear the Lions will get better next time, they can definitely win the second test and the series, they've learned from their mistakes and won't do it again, they will improve, the boks are theirs for the taking.....BUT when is next time? Maybe in the year 2021? Is that what we are waiting for?

Why does the Lions supporters not get passionatly mad and angry and demand from their team to win this series? And not to jump on the bandwagon "oh they will do better next test"

I don't see anywhere where the Lions management get blamed in the media or on boards. Everyone seems to blame Vickery, Monye and the fact that there is 2 more Welsh players than the Irish in the start-up. Everyone wants more Irish players in the starting team? When you get beaten in the second test what then? Scottish players to the rescue?

The famous rush defence from Edwards, the excellent skills from a Kiwi Gatland who won first 6N in charge, the Scottish Ian who we all know have a few tricks up his sleave and a good record, where was any of that on Sat? Instead the ref gets blamed.

It's time for the Lions supporters to stand up and demand from the Lions management anything less than a win is not acceptable.

We bok supporters demand it and we get it. PDV poor decisions on Sat and he got slated even though we won. We will not blame our players or the provinces, we will put the blame in front of PDV.

Because the Lions is ruined by politics...After the Lions squad was first named , The english press moaned about so few English players picked. They however dont point out why they should be picked.. England have been total tripe for the last few years and shouldnt have any players on tour at all. Why do you think it took the 45 mins to take Vickery off the pitch? Or why the likes of ellis were taken on tour and that goes for any of the four countries. Its all about Political BS, the english seem to thing they have god given right to be in the lions squad

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

Because the Lions is ruined by politics...After the Lions squad was first named , The english press moaned about so few English players picked. They however dont point out why they should be picked.. England have been total tripe for the last few years and shouldnt have any players on tour at all. Why do you think it took the 45 mins to take Vickery off the pitch? Or why the likes of ellis were taken on tour and that goes for any of the four countries. Its all about Political BS, the english seem to thing they have god given right to be in the lions squad

South African rugby's just as much a victim of politics as our own. That might be an argument if we were in Australia or New Zealand, but not against the South Africans.

Anyway, I think it's easy to forget that just because England are underachieving does not mean their players are bad. I'd love to have seen Josh Lewsey touring, can't imagine him being a liability, especially in the midweek games, could have offered a steady hand and experienced head a la O'Driscoll in the backline.

Phil Vickery had an awful game, but he's a very good player. The coaches obvious felt he could sort things out himself - if it had been John Hayes suffering so badly, or Marcus Horan, would we be so poisonous in our vitriol?

premierstone

anonymous_joe wrote: »

South African rugby's just as much a victim of politics as our own. That might be an argument if we were in Australia or New Zealand, but not against the South Africans.

Anyway, I think it's easy to forget that just because England are underachieving does not mean their players are bad. I'd love to have seen Josh Lewsey touring, can't imagine him being a liability, especially in the midweek games, could have offered a steady hand and experienced head a la O'Driscoll in the backline.

Phil Vickery had an awful game, but he's a very good player. The coaches obvious felt he could sort things out himself - if it had been John Hayes suffering so badly, or Marcus Horan, would we be so poisonous in our vitriol?

Well off the top of my head I can name at least 5 posters who would gladly stick the knife in

twinytwo

anonymous_joe wrote: »

South African rugby's just as much a victim of politics as our own. That might be an argument if we were in Australia or New Zealand, but not against the South Africans.

Anyway, I think it's easy to forget that just because England are underachieving does not mean their players are bad. I'd love to have seen Josh Lewsey touring, can't imagine him being a liability, especially in the midweek games, could have offered a steady hand and experienced head a la O'Driscoll in the backline.

Phil Vickery had an awful game, but he's a very good player. The coaches obvious felt he could sort things out himself - if it had been John Hayes suffering so badly, or Marcus Horan, would we be so poisonous in our vitriol?

Id have paid to have lewsey over monye or williams... I have nothing against Vickery he had a bad game but everyone could see that after the first 10 mins for the good of the tour he should have been subed there and then not after 45 mins.... none of the english players on tour have impressed at all....

escobar

twinytwo wrote: »

Because the Lions is ruined by politics...After the Lions squad was first named , The english press moaned about so few English players picked. They however dont point out why they should be picked.. England have been total tripe for the last few years and shouldnt have any players on tour at all. Why do you think it took the 45 mins to take Vickery off the pitch? Or why the likes of ellis were taken on tour and that goes for any of the four countries. Its all about Political BS, the english seem to thing they have god given right to be in the lions squad

Not just the press.....Clive Woodwards team selection was a disgrace on the NZ tour, complete english bias, not chosen for talent or form....

Call it political or whatever it's just bad managment and most probably why the lions which include the best of 4 nations loose most of the time. Has to affect the players..........

TBH I find the lions performance a little embarrasing . They should be winning alot more. They're basically the northern hemisphere minus a few french players......

funky penguin

Ah dont forget the Italian forwards!

anonymous_joe

premierstone wrote: »

Well off the top of my head I can name at least 5 posters who would gladly stick the knife in

Haha, true that, but there's a certain amount of relish with which people are tearing Vickery apart.

He should have been withdrawn earlier, but it's easy to say with hindsight.

twinytwo wrote: »

Id have paid to have lewsey over monye or williams... I have nothing against Vickery he had a bad game but everyone could see that after the first 10 mins for the good of the tour he should have been subed there and then not after 45 mins.... none of the english players on tour have impressed at all....

It's things like that that do bug me. But ah well, there's a great squad out there, let's hope they play as well as they did last week and get more luck.

escobar wrote: »

Not just the press.....Clive Woodwards team selection was a disgrace on the NZ tour, complete english bias, not chosen for talent or form....

Call it political or whatever it's just bad managment and most probably why the lions which include the best of 4 nations loose most of the time. Has to affect the players..........

TBH I find the lions performance a little embarrasing . They should be winning alot more. They're basically the northern hemisphere minus a few french players......

Don't forget the Henson farce.

Stev_o

Lewsey has been diabolical for Wasps this year making some extremely bad errors from high balls. His form didn't warrant a call up.

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

Lewsey has been diabolical for Wasps this year making some extremely bad errors from high balls. His form didn't warrant a call up.

Ah yeah, but everyone at Wasps has been awful this year.

gosplan

Why blame anyone?

The Boks first 15 were bigger and meaner, the Boks first fifteen are bigger and meaner.

That was the difference. Comeback wouldn't have been so strong if the Boks weren't confidant of the win.

If you blame anyone then blame the players that took the pitch for giving the Boks an easy 13-0 lead. No second chances in series like this! (apart from obviously the second chance that is the second test)

anonymous_joe

gosplan wrote: »

Why blame anyone?

The Boks first 15 were bigger and meaner, the Boks first fifteen are bigger and meaner.

That was the difference. Comeback wouldn't have been so strong if the Boks weren't confidant of the win.

If you blame anyone then blame the players that took the pitch for giving the Boks an easy 13-0 lead. No second chances in series like this! (apart from obviously the second chance that is the second test)

That's silly.

The Lions aren't small nor are they weak.

nacho libre

twinytwo wrote: »

Id have paid to have lewsey over monye or williams... I have nothing against Vickery he had a bad game but everyone could see that after the first 10 mins for the good of the tour he should have been subed there and then not after 45 mins.... none of the english players on tour have impressed at all....

Tom Croft did well in the first test.

escobar

funky penguin wrote: »

Ah dont forget the Italian forwards!

:pac::pac::pac:

What would we do with the english forwards then...

premierstone

nacho libre wrote: »

Tom Croft did well in the first test.

He was only ok and that is down to the two tries really, when you look at how he functioned in the basics of a number 6 he was not really up to the mark although the same can be said for most of the pack (well everyone apart fronm the centres really)

gosplan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

That's silly.

The Lions aren't small nor are they weak.

I never said that, just that the Boks are bigger, which they are, and that they're meaner (i.e. more agressive, hit harder etc), which they do. In fairness, people have been saying this since the series was first being discussed. (Damn, Ferris would have been great though )


Like I say, the 13-0 lead was decisive so maybe you blame Moyne for not getting that first try or our defense for conceding a soft one so early or whoever. After that point the Boks saw that being big and strong in the collisions combined with their kicking game would win it and they 'Munstered' the Lions (or maybe Munster have simply been 'bokking' teams all these years, I don't know).

anonymous_joe

gosplan wrote: »

I never said that, just that the Boks are bigger, which they are, and that they're meaner (i.e. more agressive, hit harder etc), which they do. In fairness, people have been saying this since the series was first being discussed. (Damn, Ferris would have been great though )


Like I say, the 13-0 lead was decisive so maybe you blame Moyne for not getting that first try or our defense for conceding a soft one so early or whoever. After that point the Boks saw that being big and strong in the collisions combined with their kicking game would win it and they 'Munstered' the Lions (or maybe Munster have simply been 'bokking' teams all these years, I don't know).

Do you think Adi Jacobs hits harder than O'Driscoll? Is Ruan Pienaar better in the tackle than O'Gara?

The Boks aren't superhuman.

nacho libre

premierstone wrote: »

He was only ok and that is down to the two tries really, when you look at how he functioned in the basics of a number 6 he was not really up to the mark although the same can be said for most of the pack (well everyone apart fronm the centres really)

Still imagine if an Irish player had scored two tries we'd likely be praising his performance.
Since Ferris was ruled out i think we all knew Croft was going to struggle to carry out the duties of a number six. Burger will give Croft a torrid time in the second test. It really is a pity Ferris isn't there to have a crack at Burger. As things currently stand aside from Shaw it's hard to see who else on the team can match the boks in terms of physicality. Though the problem with Shaw is you won't get 80 minutes out of him. That's why DOC not even making the bench is a bad call in my view. He's a fiery character who, while not as powerful as Shaw would be in the loose, will make a nuisance of himself if brought on.
Hopefully the rest of the forwards can find some reserves of strength to make the hard yard in the loose this time.