Irish tri-colour, what does it mean.

badabinbadaboom

What does the tricoulour stand for?
I was told in school it signifies peace between catholics and protestants is this true?
Or does it just look nice?
Thanks

topper75

Yeah green to represent the nationalist gaelic tradition, orange to represent the protestant tradition, and white to represent peace and union between.

Still very much aspirational for the meantime. :pac:

alrightcuz

yea its basically true,, now i wouldnt recommend this site for everything but im guessing ur only looking for a general understanding of your flag so try wikidpedia , and type in irish flag it gives a brief explanation of the colors and why

badabinbadaboom

Kind of ironic so when you think about it!

McArmalite

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah green to represent the nationalist gaelic tradition, orange to represent the protestant tradition, and white to represent peace and union between.

Still very much aspirational for the meantime. :pac:

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the outlay of it was a copy of the French flag and was created to honour the French revolution but wiki say " flag was inspired by the similarly-symbolic Newfoundland Tricolour created in 1843. " ?? ?
The tri colour only became the national symbol after the 1916 rising AFAIK. Indeed I remember Ernie O'Malley in Another man's wound saying as he walked towards O'Connell St he noticed this " strange flag " flying from the mast of the GPO. Before 1916 the national flag was the green flag with a harp in the centre.
It might surprise people but McArm thinks we should have stuck with that one and can be seen flying by the Irish Navy still.

MarchDub

McArmalite wrote: »

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the outlay of it was a copy of the French flag and was created to honour the French revolution but wiki say " flag was inspired by the similarly-symbolic Newfoundland Tricolour created in 1843. " ?? ?
The tri colour only became the national symbol after the 1916 rising AFAIK. Indeed I remember Ernie O'Malley in Another man's wound saying as he walked towards O'Connell St he noticed this " strange flag " flying from the mast of the GPO. Before 1916 the national flag was the green flag with a harp in the centre.
I

The tricolour flag was first used and designed by the Young Irelanders in their rebellion of 1848 - and said to have been inspired by the design of the French revolutionary flag. I think it was Thomas Meagher who described the Irish configuration as the white centre signifying a "lasting truce between the orange and the green".

The flag fell into disuse but was revived by the 1916 rebels and hoisted over the GPO.

MarchDub

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah green to represent the nationalist gaelic tradition, orange to represent the protestant tradition, and white to represent peace and union between.

Still very much aspirational for the meantime. :pac:

To be fair and precise - the orange represents the "Orange' tradition and not the "Protestant" tradition, some of which of course was also nationalist. The green represents the nationalists - and not "Catholics" per se.

It's historically incorrect to think of nationalists as being exclusively Catholic and vise versa.

number_1

MarchDub wrote: »

I think it was Thomas Meagher who described the Irish configuration as the white centre signifying a "lasting truce between the orange and the green".

The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the 'Orange' and the 'Green', and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of the Irish Protestant and the Irish Catholic may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood.

Thomas Francis Meagher, 7th March 1848

.

Elmo

Green: Fenians
White: Unity/Peace
Orange: Orangemen

Kind of ironic so when you think about it!

It is not really ironic as the people who sought for unity and peace did want to include the Orangemen of Ulster. You have to remember that many of the political leaders in Ireland from 1800 to 1922 where Anglo-Irish protestants. Parnell, Childers, Butt etc.

Morlar

Elmo wrote: »

Green: Fenians
White: Unity/Peace
Orange: Orangemen

It is not really ironic as the people who sought for unity and peace did want to include the Orangemen of Ulster. You have to remember that many of the political leaders in Ireland from 1800 to 1922 where Anglo-Irish protestants. Parnell, Childers, Butt etc.

Let's not forget the grand-daddy of them all Wolfe Tone. I agree there is nothing ironic about it at all.

Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant. The white in the middle is the aspiration of peace between both traditions.

topper75

MarchDub wrote: »

the orange represents the "Orange' tradition and not the "Protestant" tradition,

So orangemen are not protestant? Fill out an Orange Order application form and write down Roman Catholic as your religion. Be sure to come back and let us all know how you got on.

Morlar wrote: »

Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant.

Green does not equal catholic, and indeed I never said it did. Nor did anyone else in the thread AFAIK!
See above for your second clause.

Morlar

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

What does the tricoulour stand for?
I was told in school it signifies peace between catholics and protestants is this true?

topper75 wrote: »

Green does not equal catholic, and indeed I never said it did. Nor did anyone else in the thread AFAIK!

Re the 2nd part : While most orangemen will be protestant - the point I was making is that not all protestants are orangemen.

topper75

Morlar wrote: »

Re the 2nd part : While most orangemen will be protestant - the point I was making is that not all protestants are orangemen.

Apologies, I checked everyone's post bar the OP's. I stand corrected on that.

However you are still wrong on the second count Morlar. You cannot say MOST orangemen are protestant. In fact, ALL orangemen are protestant.

You also wrote 'orange does not mean protestant'. In fact, it very much does.

e.g. You can be an animal without being a dog, but if you are a dog, you must be an animal.

You can be a protestant without being an orangeman, but if you are an orangeman, you must be protestant.

MarchDub

topper75 wrote: »

So orangemen are not protestant? Fill out an Orange Order application form and write down Roman Catholic as your religion. Be sure to come back and let us all know how you got on.

I presume you are deliberately being obtuse - you edited my remark to not take in what I said about exclusiveness. The Orange did not represent ALL Protestants and exists outside of some traditional Protestant aspirations . There was also a tradition of Protestants belong to the nationalist side.

Let me help you out with your logical thinking...
"Orangemen are Protestant but not all Protestants are Orange."

Elmo

The colours are there to represent the two traditions.

Not all catholics are/were nationalist/fenians.

Morlar

topper75 wrote: »

Apologies, I checked everyone's post bar the OP's. I stand corrected on that.

However you are still wrong on the second count Morlar. You cannot say MOST orangemen are protestant. In fact, ALL orangemen are protestant.

You also wrote 'orange does not mean protestant'. In fact, it very much does.
...
You can be a protestant without being an orangeman, but if you are an orangeman, you must be protestant.

Let's clarify here - I said

"Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant."

Which is 100% correct.


If you have 100,000 protestants and you have 30,000 Orangemen - 29,000 of the 30,000 orangemen will be protestant. The rest of the protestants are NOT orangemen. Therefore this statement :

Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant.

Is still 100% correct.

'Orange does not mean protestant'. I never said most orange order members will not be protestants. You apparently just mis-read something which wasn't there.

Fratton Fred

Not all Singhs are Sikhs, but all Sikhs are Singhs

i think to be an Orangeman you have to be "Non-Catholic", just to add to the confusion

topper75

Morlar wrote: »

If you have 100,000 protestants and you have 30,000 Orangemen - 29,000 of the 30,000 orangemen will be protestant. The rest of the protestants are NOT orangemen.

Morlar. Give us a break. Tell us in plain English how somebody could be a member of the orange order and at the same time not be a protestant?

Have a read of this

http://www.gole.org.uk/qualifications.htm

Elmo

I thought you had to be a protestant and a man to be a member of the orange order.

30,000 thousand orangemen are all protestant. I didn't think it was that popular an organisation

Morlar

topper75 wrote: »

Morlar. Give us a break. Tell us in plain English how somebody could be a member of the orange order and at the same time not be a protestant?

I never said that somebody can be in the orange order and not be a protestant. Though as an aside if you look in to this you will see that it is correct

To say that 'Orange does not mean protestant' does not mean that orangemen cannot be protestant.

It means that the Orange Order does not represent ALL protestants therefore
Orange does not mean protestant.

The orange order does not represent the entirety of opinion and outlook within the protestant faith on this land. Orange does not mean protestant. Do you get that ?

Likewise 'Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant'

The 'green does not equal catholic' part means that nationalists were not alll catholics & not all catholics were nationalist.

Morlar

Elmo wrote: »

I thought you had to be a protestant and a man to be a member of the orange order.

30,000 thousand orangemen are all protestant. I didn't think it was that popular an organisation

Those numbers were out of thin air and purely to make the point that not all protestants are orangemen. Don't forget the Orange orders are not restricted to Ireland, they are prevalent in the US, Canada, Scotland (UK) and also Africa believe it or not.

Elmo

Morlar wrote: »

Those numbers were out of thin air and purely to make the point that not all protestants are orangemen. Don't forget the Orange orders are not restricted to Ireland, they are prevalent in the US, Canada, Scotland (UK) and also Africa believe it or not.

I was being sarcastic They have orange orders in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan.

topper75

Morlar wrote: »

Those numbers were out of thin air and purely to make the point that not all protestants are orangemen. Don't forget the Orange orders are not restricted to Ireland, they are prevalent in the US, Canada, Scotland (UK) and also Africa believe it or not.

We understand it was an illustration and nobody is taking you to task on the accuracy of the figures.

Here is my problem though - the figures suggest that a proportion of orangemen might not be protestant. This shows a misunderstanding of what being an orangeman means, and I want to clear that up. If you are an orangeman, you are a protestant. No way around that.

Fratton Fred

I can assure you that being "protestant" most certainly does not equal being Orange.

I am a regular church going Anglican and the orange order makes my skin crawl, but then again, I have a Roman Catholic wife and daughter, so to them I am as bad as a Papist

As far as I am aware, there are no Orangemen in my local parish either, although being in Dublin, there are a few dodgy orange looking fake suntans, if that counts:D

Then again, my catholic wife and daughter also regularly attend an Anglican church, so there's probably some long departed pope somewhere turning in his grave as well.

OK, have we got that point sorted now

Morlar

topper75 wrote: »

If you are an orangeman, you are a protestant. No way around that.

No one on this thread has said that 'if you are an orangeman you are not a protestant'.

What has been said by you was :

Yeah green to represent the nationalist gaelic tradition, orange to represent the protestant tradition,

Other people corrected this :

To be fair and precise - the orange represents the "Orange' tradition and not the "Protestant" tradition, some of which of course was also nationalist. The green represents the nationalists - and not "Catholics" per se.

Green: Fenians
White: Unity/Peace
Orange: Orangemen

Green does not equal catholic and orange does not mean protestant.

that 'Orange does not mean protestant' ie not all protestants are orangemen. Orange-ism does not mean Protestant-ism

I refer you to this post from about 2 hours ago :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60814523&postcount=12

Re the 2nd part : While most orangemen will be protestant - the point I was making is that not all protestants are orangemen.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can assure you that being "protestant" most certainly does not equal being Orange.

Yeah yeah, that's what they all say. (joking!)

topper75

Morlar wrote: »

Re the 2nd part : While most orangemen will be protestant - the point I was making is that not all protestants are orangemen.

Most orangemen are protestant you say. So let's put this to bed. What are the orangemen who are not protestant? What are they, if they are not protestant?

Fratton Fred

topper75 wrote: »

Most orangemen are protestant you say. So let's put this to bed. What are the orangemen who are not protestant? What are they, if they are not protestant?

Seeing as pretty much all christians denominations that are not Roman Catholic (The Roman bit is important, Anglicans, for example, are catholic but not Roman Catholic) are Protestant, then they probably are.

the emphasis I believe though, is being non Roman Catholic.

Annyywaaaay, I had heard that the Orange in the irish flag relating to Orangemen/Protestants was an urban myth and to be honest, this kind of confirms it to me.

Morlar

topper75 wrote: »

Most orangemen are protestant you say. So let's put this to bed. What are the orangemen who are not protestant? What are they, if they are not protestant?

There is no anything to 'put to bed'. You have moved the goalposts a few times here so far. Re the latest point - the use of the word 'most' instead of the word 'all' I refer you to google

'catholic orange men'

To find the particular example I referred to. Not forgetting that Ireland is not the only country with Orange Orders.

*actually screw it I will make it easy for you :

http://www.upwingers.net/craigmurray/orangemen2.pdf

Every year a small delegation of Ghanaian Orangemen visits Belfast for
the Orange parade of 12 July. What some of the more bigoted Ulstermen
make of these strange comrades is an interesting question. I have little
doubt what they would make of the Togolese Orangemen.
Orange Lodges being popular among the Ewe, and involving enjoyable
dressing up and parading about, some of the neighbouring Ewe chiefs in
Togo thought that they would like to have their own Orange lodges too.
That is why I was to be astonished to see, on the streets of Atakpame in
Togo’s Plateau region, a full blown orange parade with perhaps eighty
French speaking Orangemen strutting to beat of drum – walking behind
choirboys in white surplices carrying a statue of the Virgin Mary! I asked
the local schoolteacher if the Orangemen were protestants, and he replied
that one or two might be atheists (by which I think he meant protestants)
but of course, most were Catholics; this was Togo.
Africa has many marvels, but the Catholic Orangemen of Togo remain
one of the funniest and most heart-warming sights I can recall. Africa still
has a great deal to teach us.

Elmo

All Orange men are protestant, all protestants are not orange men which is down to either choice (it may not be their own choice ) or being the wrong sex.

conchubhar1

it means freedom

can we all agree - that all orangemen are ***** and racist and discrimanatory bastards?