Jape: Your Rebuttal

liah

It's okay, I'll fight on your turf. Here's my rebuttal.

Wrong. There is, you wouldn't have made that statement otherwise. Only trying to convince yourself.

Uh, no, not wrong. Despite its obvious bias against PETA, it DOES use non-bias (often government) sources for its studies which you can verify with a quick google search. You can't discredit the sources even if you don't like the look of the website. It's exposing something you don't want to admit to so obviously you're going to ignore it. Did you even do any searching? Probably not. I'm not the one who's trying to convince myself here, you are.

Wrong unfortunately. Firstly, it is well known Hitler was a very intelligent man despite also being evil. I actually said 5 of the most intelligent men who ever lived agreed with vegetarianism, I don't have a clue why you are bringing Hitler into it at all to be honest. Bringing up Hitler is a classic case of an argument lost.

No, you said five of the most intelligent men who ever lived WERE vegetarians. I'm trying to make a point to you that lifestyle choice makes no difference to the argument. It has the same relevance to religion. Darwin led no consistent religious belief. Einstein was an Atheist. Newton was religious. Da Vinci was a Catholic. Edison was an Atheist. Fair mix, I'd say. So which one's right? Who the hell knows. But they each had their lifestyle choices. Intelligence didn't have much to do with those particular sources. Just because they were some of the most intelligent men ever doesn't mean they were right about everything. One of them had to be wrong about something along the way.

And wrong again for the third time.

Einstein agreed with vegetarianism for most of his life before practising it. Vegetarianism was correct in his eyes. Here is a direct quote from Einstein himself on the issue:

"So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."

He was still a meat-eater before that. I ask again; did he suddenly become more intelligent when he gave up meat in the last few years of his life? I agree with some aspects of vegetarianism (though certainly not the self-righteous militant type, same way I don't like self-righteous militant religious or atheists or any other political or lifestyle viewpoint). It's still not for me.

Your Thomas Edison quote contradicts your argument completely, did you even read it? Read the last part, even after a full recovery from illness he:
"continues to renounce meat in all it's forms."
renounce means to give up, in case you didn't know. Which you probably didn't, quoting that to support your argument. Rofl.

Of course I read it, else I'd've not posted it. Again, he was a meateater for years, and again, did he become smarter when he turned to vegetarianism, only after becoming ill? No. He made a lifestyle choice after some time of living without meat completely and entirely due to necessity. Do you believe he would have made the choice had he not fallen ill? I doubt it very much.

Now onto Darwin, here is a direct quote from him in his famous book "The Origin Of Species":
"The grading of forms, organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and that our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and that we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals."
and another quote from his book "The Descent of Man":
"Even in the worm that crawls in the earth there glows a divine spark. When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God."
It is quite clear even if he wasn't vegetarian (which I doubt), that he fully agreed with it.

I think you are the one using "selective information", I have quoted 2 of Darwin's books directly.

You fail to realize you're using entirely circular logic on this one. Darwin's thoughts on evolution are not what we're talking about and he turned out to be wrong in them as I evidenced in posts in the other forum. We're talking about his lifestyle choice as to whether or not he ate meat and he did.

The entire page on the International Vegetarian Union says the following (and references your quotes);

There is no suggestion that Darwin was a vegetarian - though unfortunately he appears on lists of 'famous vegetarians' on various websites. The notes below might help to clarify the confusion:

from 'Omniverous or Vegetarian? what famous naturalist think about it' by Professor Luis Vallejo Rodríguez, Spain, 1996:

. . . Of course, the most famous of all British naturalists also agreed with the other naturalists. I am referring to Charles Darwin (1800-1882) who at the age of 22 years started on a journey around the world which lasted 5 years. On this journey Darwin collected material which served to publish his most famous book in 1859: The Origin of Species by Natural Selection: Darwin was a member of the Royal Society of London and after his death he was buried in Westminster Abbey with great funeral honours and diplomatic representatives from many great nations were present at his funeral. Darwin wrote:

"The grading of forms, organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and that our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and that we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals."

In his book The Origin of Man he tells us:

"Although we know nothing for certain about the time or place that man shed the thick hair that covered him, with much probability of being right we could say that he must have lived in a warm country where conditions were favourable to the frugivorous way of life which, to judge from analogies, must have been the way man lived."

From an article in the Souvenir book of the 1957 IVU Congress in India:

All these examples show us that the common and persistent fallacy that one must eat flesh in order to be strong has no foundation in fact; indeed the exact contrary is true, Charles Darwin remarked in one of his letters: "The most extraordinary workers I ever saw, the labourers in the mines of Chili, live exclusively on vegetable food, including many seeds of leguminous plants." Of the same miners Sri Francis Head writes: "It is usual for the copper miners of Central Chilli to carry loads of ore of two hundred pounds weight up eighty perpendicular yards twelve times a day; and their diet is entirely vegetarian - a breakfast of figs and small loaves of bread, a dinner of boiled beans, and a supper of roasted wheat."

other quotes of unknown sources:

We have seen that the senses and intuitions, the various emotions and faculties, such as love, memory, attention and curiosity, imitation, reason, etc., of which man boasts, may be found in an incipient, or even sometimes in a well-developed condition, in the lower animals.

There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties ... The difference in mind between man and the higher animals, great as it is, certainly is one of degree and not of kind.

The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.

So he supports your mistaken theory that humans were never designed to consume meat, but he never once stated his personal lifestyle choice was to be vegetarian.

Right here for you if you think I'm lying.
http://www.ivu.org/history/europe19b/darwin.html

If ye want to have a spat can't ye take it to pm. :mad:

liah

Sorry, he just said he was going to move it over here so. Wasn't my intention to take it here, as I don't even read here at all nor really have any particular interest in the matter, but he said to take it to Vegan & Vegetarian so here I am. :pac:

Crumble Froo

this is interesting. where did it all come from? links?

Dr Strange

Crumble Froo wrote: »

this is interesting. where did it all come from? links?

Here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055598992

Slaphead07

Crumble Froo wrote: »

this is interesting.

Really? Looks like the same old tired clichés to me.

If you want to live as a vegetarian then do so and do so with dignity. If you want to eat meat then who can blame you? That is the society we live in. Nonsense about who was a veggie or how bright they were is an uninteresting sideshow.

take yer thread back to whence it came.

jape

liah wrote: »

It's okay, I'll fight on your turf. Here's my rebuttal.



Uh, no, not wrong. Despite its obvious bias against PETA, it DOES use non-bias (often government) sources for its studies which you can verify with a quick google search. You can't discredit the sources even if you don't like the look of the website. It's exposing something you don't want to admit to so obviously you're going to ignore it. Did you even do any searching? Probably not. I'm not the one who's trying to convince myself here, you are.



No, you said five of the most intelligent men who ever lived WERE vegetarians. I'm trying to make a point to you that lifestyle choice makes no difference to the argument. It has the same relevance to religion. Darwin led no consistent religious belief. Einstein was an Atheist. Newton was religious. Da Vinci was a Catholic. Edison was an Atheist. Fair mix, I'd say. So which one's right? Who the hell knows. But they each had their lifestyle choices. Intelligence didn't have much to do with those particular sources. Just because they were some of the most intelligent men ever doesn't mean they were right about everything. One of them had to be wrong about something along the way.



He was still a meat-eater before that. I ask again; did he suddenly become more intelligent when he gave up meat in the last few years of his life? I agree with some aspects of vegetarianism (though certainly not the self-righteous militant type, same way I don't like self-righteous militant religious or atheists or any other political or lifestyle viewpoint). It's still not for me.



Of course I read it, else I'd've not posted it. Again, he was a meateater for years, and again, did he become smarter when he turned to vegetarianism, only after becoming ill? No. He made a lifestyle choice after some time of living without meat completely and entirely due to necessity. Do you believe he would have made the choice had he not fallen ill? I doubt it very much.



You fail to realize you're using entirely circular logic on this one. Darwin's thoughts on evolution are not what we're talking about and he turned out to be wrong in them as I evidenced in posts in the other forum. We're talking about his lifestyle choice as to whether or not he ate meat and he did.

The entire page on the International Vegetarian Union says the following (and references your quotes);



So he supports your mistaken theory that humans were never designed to consume meat, but he never once stated his personal lifestyle choice was to be vegetarian.

Right here for you if you think I'm lying.
http://www.ivu.org/history/europe19b/darwin.html

Pathetic.

liah

If it's so pathetic it should be fairly easy for you to dispute then, no? You're the one who wanted me to take it here, so I did.

-lala-

Slaphead07 wrote: »

If you want to live as a vegetarian then do so and do so with dignity. If you want to eat meat then who can blame you? That is the society we live in. Nonsense about who was a veggie or how bright they were is an uninteresting sideshow.

take yer thread back to whence it came.

+1

Jape, just because you started a pointless argument in the "ranting and raving" forum it doesn't mean you have to bring it to us.

jape

-lala- wrote: »

+1

Jape, just because you started a pointless argument in the "ranting and raving" forum it doesn't mean you have to bring it to us.

Yeah sure didn't I start this here thread on the vegetarian forum :rolleyes:

-lala-

liah wrote: »

Sorry, he just said he was going to move it over here so. Wasn't my intention to take it here, as I don't even read here at all nor really have any particular interest in the matter, but he said to take it to Vegan & Vegetarian so here I am. :pac:

jape wrote: »

Yeah sure didn't I start this here thread on the vegetarian forum :rolleyes:

Ehh...

liah

jape wrote: »

Yeah sure didn't I start this here thread on the vegetarian forum :rolleyes:

You mention in multiple posts in the thread this was from that you wanted to continue the debate in the Vegetarian forum. So, here we are. I present you an argument which you can't dispute so you cop out and pretend like this wasn't your entire idea.

I did what you asked me to, mate, don't get all indignant. You're the one who was throwing around your PETA propaganda in a COMPLETELY inappropriate circumstance to begin with.

vibrant

Is this about Jape the band?

jape

vibrant wrote: »

Is this about Jape the band?

Might aswell be :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3OSoBFzhLI

Spastafarian

Maybe there should be a 'Vegetarian Argument' sub-forum here. I just came here to read about vegetables dammit!

Crumble Froo

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Really? Looks like the same old tired clichés to me.

ive never actually really been involved in a debate on this matter before, believe it or not. im sure there's a gazillion examples on the internet and stuff, but not actually been involved in/come across this likes before. i find it interesting.

Tar.Aldarion

Guess you haven't argued enough. :-p

It doesn't matter who is vegetarian or who was vegetarian. A lot of poeple do go, lololol Hitler was vegetarian(Reductio ad Hitlerum.) and I do like to inform them he was not, maybe to read some books on him, but that's the extent of it, the same goges for x was or was not vegetarian. As for Darwin, I don't know or care, why does anybody? I'm much more interested in the philosophical arguments than their choice. And maybe looking at people debate. I was just told to watch this so I will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADhNch30Img

I would rather argue with these arguments than about some non-issue, who was what.

As for the tread, keep it civil or it will be locked.

Sapsorrow

Do we REALLY need another one of these.....Jape I agree with your aguement and I empathise with your passion for vegetarianism and animal rights but I think we're all sick of this agro bullsh*t coming into the forum!

Sapsorrow

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Guess you haven't argued enough. :-p

It doesn't matter who is vegetarian or who was vegetarian. A lot of poeple do go, lololol Hitler was vegetarian(Reductio ad Hitlerum.) and I do like to inform them he was not, maybe to read some books on him, but that's the extent of it, the same goges for x was or was not vegetarian. As for Darwin, I don't know or care, why does anybody? I'm much more interested in the philosophical arguments than their choice. And maybe looking at people debate. I was just told to watch this so I will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADhNch30Img

I would rather argue with these arguments than about some non-issue, who was what.

As for the tread, keep it civil or it will be locked.

Excellent links thanks Tar!