Call the Men in White Coats - Shane Williams 2nd Test. Theory.

Requiem4adream

Just following on from the Changes for 2nd Test thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055598862 - just wanna outline my thinking on why Geech etc might go for Shane Williams in the 2nd test. Yes. Shane Williams.

Some of you might think i've just escaped from an asylum or taken leave of my senses, but i have a suspicion he may very well be selected for the 2nd Test. (Of course i wouldn't personally, no sane person would right now :rolleyes:).



1. He has been given so many chances on this Tour. Why? Because they were desperate for him to play well and make the Test side. Which is fair enough, nobody would dispute a peak-form Williams place in the side.

2. Most of the chances Monye has had on this tour have come either directly or indirectly through the BOD-Roberts-Bowe axis, and most were easy finishes. Despite the amount of opportunities to shine Williams has had, and the shocking poor form he has shown, something sticks out in my mind.

v Royals: Centre partnership Earls-Roberts struggled. Mike Blair struggled woefully to get any sort of ball to the backs. ROG struggled for much of the game before pulling it together.

v G.Lions: He had 19 mins. At which point, Mike Phillips was playing at centre, Ellis was on at 9, Hook at 10, Andy Powell on trying to hit the nearest man at every opportunity instead of playing some rugby.

v Cheetahs: Again, a centre-axis of Fitz/Earls was never going to provide as much as Bod/Roberts. Worsley, Powell at 7/8 didn't help at all going through phases.

v Sharks: No excuses. BOD/Roberts/Bowe/Byrne/Philips etc.

v Kings: 16 mins in a game where playing rugby wasn't exactly top of the agenda for the Kings.


Ok so where does that leave us? IMO Williams has been piss poor this tour compared to what he's capable of. Nobody will dispute that. Trying to put myself in the minds of the coaches though, he's only had 1 genuine opportunity to play with the Test Team. Form temporary, class permanent is the old adage. It would not surprise me for one second if they go for him in the 2nd Test.

As i said, for me it's a no-brainer to get Fitz back in there but if the little man has a good game on Tuesday don't be surprised to see his name on the team sheet.

Stealdo

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Some of you might think i've just escaped from an asylum or taken leave of my senses,

I think you've just escaped from an asylum and taken leave of your senses.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

nobody would dispute a peak-form Williams place in the side.

I would and did.

Requiem4adream

Stealdo wrote: »

I think you've just escaped from an asylum and taken leave of your senses.



I would and did.

heh. don't shoot!

sock puppet

Stealdo wrote: »

I think you've just escaped from an asylum and taken leave of your senses.



I would and did.

That's ridiculous. On form Williams is/was one of the best wingers in the world. The Shane Williams of last year was by much better than any other winger in the isles. The problem is that he's playing crap not that he's a bad player. Unfortunately for him at his age and with the talent coming through in Wales it's unlikely that he'll to return to those heights.

Stealdo

sock puppet wrote: »

That's ridiculous. On form Williams is/was one of the best wingers in the world. The Shane Williams of last year was by much better than any other winger in the isles. The problem is that he's playing crap not that he's a bad player. Unfortunately for him at his age and with the talent coming through in Wales it's unlikely that he'll to return to those heights.

It's not ridiculous at all. Not saying he's a bad player, but I wouldn't have him in a Lions XV because in my opinion his defence has never been up to scratch. If you choose to play him you have to make compensations in your game plan in other ways. He has certain attributes that in certain situations place him above all of the other candidates. But he has certain attributes that put him very much at the bottom of that list in others. The decision would be based on how you expect a game to go and what way you want to approach it. He would never be a definite in any test level team.

sock puppet

Stealdo wrote: »

It's not ridiculous at all. Not saying he's a bad player, but I wouldn't have him in a Lions XV because in my opinion his defence has never been up to scratch. If you choose to play him you have to make compensations in your game plan in other ways. He has certain attributes that in certain situations place him above all of the other candidates. But he has certain attributes that put him very much at the bottom of that list in others. The decision would be based on how you expect a game to go and what way you want to approach it. He would never be a definite in any test level team.

I see your point but imo he was too good to leave out if you were to pick a team last year. Anyway I suppose it's a moot point anyway as he hasn't done anything lately to merit a spot.

toomevara

Nurse Ratchett's on the way round Requiem. don't struggle, its all for the best....

Requiem4adream

toomevara wrote: »

Nurse Ratchett's on the way round Requiem. don't struggle, its all for the best....

Well i might as well go with an insane prediction before she gets here! Still think it's definitely possible. And all the more likely if he shows absolutely anything in the Emerging Boks game. A try or a few bits of magic and they'll have the excuse they need to get him back in.

Please God Fitz has a great game and it'll be a moot point.

[Jackass]

I think Shane Williams will be picked as well.

It has been very clear with the amount of oppertunity he's been given he was up there with BO'D and O'Connell as the first name on the team sheets in McGeehans mind, but unlike the other two, he's been woeful. If BOD or POC were the same, they would have been played in almost every match to try and get them up to speed.

After Moynes show in the first test, it's clear there needs to be a cutting edge on the left wing, and while my opinion is that Fitzgerald is the best finisher out of all of them, the coaching staff have the former world player of the year Williams in such high esteem that they are willing to say fu*k it, he can't be worse than the last guy and he is a key part in how we planned this tour, so give him a shot despite form and see how it goes.

I think it's reckless and may be a costly error.

Even Fitz, who is a superb defender, offers a lot more cutting edge in defence that is Williams main weakness, and while Fitz isn't as quick, we've seen time and time again how his step leaves defenders for dead every week and he gets behind defenders...and how if he gets the ball in space inside the opposition 22, he more often than not scores a try.

People have called for Kearney, but Kearney doesn't have the finishing of a winger and would be superb defensive edge to have as a virtual second full back and a massive boot on him, but Lions need cutting edge.

Stealdo

[Jackass] wrote: »

After Moynes show in the first test, it's clear there needs to be a cutting edge on the left wing, and while my opinion is that Fitzgerald is the best finisher out of all of them, the coaching staff have the former world player of the year Williams in such high esteem that they are willing to say fu*k it, he can't be worse than the last guy and he is a key part in how we planned this tour, so give him a shot despite form and see how it goes.

I totally disagree with you on this....if Monye hadn't failed to finish his two opportunities there'd be no talk of cutting edges. Monye's lack of cutting edge wasn't an issue, his lack of experience in terms of finishing was.

dreamer_ire

Williams has as much of a chance of starting the next match as Fitz does. While both are very good neither have really impressed on this tour. I'd love to see Fitz get the nod but I think he has a lot of work to do on Tuesday to overcome any bias there is towards Williams. It's in Fitz's hands... here's hoping he can deliver.

Size=everything

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Williams has as much of a chance of starting the next match as Fitz does. While both are very good neither have really impressed on this tour. I'd love to see Fitz get the nod but I think he has a lot of work to do on Tuesday to overcome any bias there is towards Williams. It's in Fitz's hands... here's hoping he can deliver.

In fairness Willaims had a ridiculous amount of opportunities to impress whilst Fitzgerald had one at wing where Mike Blair's passing to him was terrible.

Stealdo

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Williams has as much of a chance of starting the next match as Fitz does. While both are very good neither have really impressed on this tour. I'd love to see Fitz get the nod but I think he has a lot of work to do on Tuesday to overcome any bias there is towards Williams. It's in Fitz's hands... here's hoping he can deliver.

Maybe I'm underestimating how highly thought of Williams is, but I think this is nuts too. While both are very good, one has been a star in teams that won the Grand Slam and the Heineken Cup this season, and has been good but unspectacular on tour. The other has been anonymous in under-performing teams all season and has been a liability both defending and with the ball in hand on tour.

No contest.

Monye is more likely to start than Williams in my opinion and possibly 50/50 with Fitz.

dreamer_ire

Size=everything wrote: »

In fairness Willaims had a ridiculous amount of opportunities to impress whilst Fitzgerald had one at wing where Mike Blair's passing to him was terrible.

Absolutely, don't disagree with you at all but I think given the opportunities Williams has had there is a clear bias in his favour. If Fitz has a stormer tomorrow, like we all know he is capable of, he'll give McGeechan an option that at the moment I reckon he doesn't see as available to him.

The last person I want to see on the wing next Saturday is Williams, he hasn't found his form all year and as others have mentioned he's not the best defensively. It's in Fitz's hands.... I hope 1. he gets to play at 11 and 2. that he has one of his best game's of the season.

[Jackass]

Stealdo wrote: »

I totally disagree with you on this....if Monye hadn't failed to finish his two opportunities there'd be no talk of cutting edges. Monye's lack of cutting edge wasn't an issue, his lack of experience in terms of finishing was.

Yeah...but that was my whole point....the finishing IS the complete cutting edge, that's what it's all about, and Moyne doesn't have it.........

GymJim

[Jackass] wrote: »

Yeah...but that was my whole point....the finishing IS the complete cutting edge, that's what it's all about, and Moyne doesn't have it.........

No it's not. Cutting edge is Tommy Bowe's break and pass to give Monye try against Sharks I think (can't remember exact game at this stage but you know what I'm talking about).

Flopping over the line from 5 yards out is not cutting edge...it is being in the right place at the right time though...which does have a value also. However as Monye doesn't contribute any more than this (and he didn't even contribute this even yesterday) then his value to the team no longer exists.

[Jackass]

Well....ok, we can all have our own deffinitions of what "cutting-edge" is ... it's up there in vaguness as Moyne not having the "X-Factor" that Fitgerald would have....so arguing over the term is pointless...

My point is that ALL of the wingers are good with ball in hand, all can run with it and beat players, but the "cutting-edge" in my book is the ability to finish...if you get the ball 5 metres out and can't finish, you've got no cutting edge (i.e. unless the oppertunity is made for you, you can't make it yourself) as Bowe made trys for him and as whenever Moyne needed to do that extra bit to finish an oppertunity, he couldn't...

Whereas Fitz for example, doesn't rely on just barging through players, he has that edge to him, that jink and gets low and is probably the best finisher out of any of the wings going for left right now.

Size=everything

Cutting edge in my eyes is the ability to finish a try when theres still lots to be done. As we have seen Moyne can't do that. He is a simple run in finisher (and he even failed at that in the last game) whereas Fitzgerald is a winger who can finish not so simple tries, he has a rugby brain and uses it to get over the line even with defenders in front of him. A jink, a spin, a turn of pace, whatever Fitzgerald can score tries 5 metres out when theres still a lot to do.

A good example to look to when someone mentions cutting edge is Dennis Hickie. Theres countless examples of Hickie where 5 metres from the line despite an abundance of opposing defenders around him he will manage to negotiate his way around for a try something that Fitzgerald can do also and Moyne can't.

Nilther

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA6vdKNuKro&feature=related

I'll say no more.

Size=everything

Nilther wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA6vdKNuKro&feature=related

I'll say no more.

that was exactly the try i was thinking of when mentioning Hickie

Stev_o

Nilther wrote: »

I'll say no more.

All you'v shown is that Hickie like Monye has the ball in the wrong arm.

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

All you'v shown is that Hickie like Monye has the ball in the wrong arm.

But if hes cutting inside hes better having the ball on his inside arm as it gives the defender less time to react and snatch the ball due to the element of suprise whereas if the ball is on his outside arm and he cuts inside the player has time to steady himself and attack the ball as it follows where Hickie intends to go. This is different from running straight in for a try.

Stev_o

Size=everything wrote: »

But if hes cutting inside hes better having the ball on his inside arm as it gives the defender less time to react and snatch the ball due to the element of suprise whereas if the ball is on his outside arm and he cuts inside the player has time to steady himself and attack the ball as it follows where Hickie intends to go. This is different from running straight in for a try.

Im talking about Monye's second try where he does the exact same, he like Hickey never switches the ball from either hand. The sole difference being that all the defenders attacked Hickies body trying to bring him down while Steyn attacked the ball to dislodge it.

Nilther

Stev_o wrote: »

All you'v shown is that Hickie like Monye has the ball in the wrong arm.

Hickie scored. Monye didn't.

Also, just for clarity I haven't mentioned once about Monye. For what it's worth I think Monye had the ball in the correct hand for his original step on Steyn but once he had beaten him he should have held the ball as tight as he could have with both hands against his body.

Ciaran-Irl

For what it's worth, I reckon they will go with Shane Williams too. I'd personally put Kearney in, or Luke second, but I think they'll go with Williams.

yimrsg

I also feel that the second test is crying out for Shane Williams (NURSE! There's another one!)

My thinking is that our centres were so dominant that by having Williams on the wing would perhaps allow the centres more time and space as they know that Shane can score tries that he has no right to. Sure Fitzgerald is the most reliable defensively but by selecting Williams we have are adding a psychological threat and hopefully pre-empting any Worsely style man-marking of Roberts.

I do feel that Fitzgerald should be in the 22 however, I'm not completely mad!

Stealdo

I'm amazed by all the support that Williams is getting here, I think there's a couple of trains of thought some people saying he 'should' some that he shouldn't but might. I think it'd be a crazy decision by the coaches. It's been 12 months now since Williams was playing well and he had serious short comings even then.

So how many think he will be picked as oppose to think he should be picked?

bigbadben

Off topic I know but I think Cedrick Heymans showed us all exactly what "cutting edge" is.

When you consider the quality of the opposition I think its one of the best tries I seen in yonks.

dreamer_ire

Stealdo wrote: »

So how many think he will be picked as oppose to think he should be picked?

I think he shouldn't be picked but also think there is every chance he will. As I've said before it's in Fitz's hands to have a stormer tomorrow and give the management team a headache... here's hoping cos I think Williams could prove a disaster.

Requiem4adream

Stev_o wrote: »

All you'v shown is that Hickie like Monye has the ball in the wrong arm.

Slightly OT, but for the move he did it's probably in the slightly better hand. Lovely step inside and counter-clockwise spin, have a feeling in terms of balance it's in the better hand. Also i think it's clear that Hickie at least decided what he wanted to do. Monyes indecision was unforgivable. Could clearly see for the 2nd chance that he didn't know whether to go inside or outside, decision making makes all the difference.

Monyes 2 chances should at least have yielded 1 try. To miss one, fair enough, two is just not good enough at Test Match Level. Whatever we think of the strengths/weaknesses of Fitz/Kearney/Williams at 11, i'm almost certain they would have taken at least 1 of those opportunities. If not by raw speed, by skill, strength and footballing instinct.