EAST COAST SANSHOU CHALLENGE

OLDMAN1

The closing date for anybody that is entering the EAST COAST SANSHOU CHALLENGE is the 28th of june, all fighters that want to enter the full contact sanshou must fill in the application form that can be found on the website and return it to the address at the bottom by the 28th. anybody that wishes to enter the light contact continous can just enter on the day. www.sanshou.ie looking forward to seeing you all there.

cowzerp

I might be interested in bringing a few lads to this, whats the story with gloves an all, it says they need to be the same colour as the protective gear, also chest protectors, do you supply them?

gloves are not in ounces so are they 10 oz or what? 70kg plus says heavier, also all the bowing and waving stuff we would not know, is that a must? Thanks in advance. Paul

Killme00

Why is there i chest protector if this is considered full contact?

Please dont consider this a snide remark, i just couldnt think of any other way of asking. Thanks

wudangclan

cowzerp wrote: »

I might be interested in bringing a few lads to this, whats the story with gloves an all, it says they need to be the same colour as the protective gear, also chest protectors, do you supply them?

gloves are not in ounces so are they 10 oz or what? 70kg plus says heavier, also all the bowing and waving stuff we would not know, is that a must? Thanks in advance. Paul

10 ounce 70 kilos and up.8 ounce 65 kilos and below.
dont worry about the colours,fighters are differentiated by the chest protectors alone,which should be provided on the day ,trhough perhaps some else could confirm that.
the judge more or less walks the fighters through the bows at the start of each bout, not a major headache.

http://www.sanshou.ie/Full%20Contact%20Rules.pdf

wudangclan

Killme00 wrote: »

Why is there i chest protector if this is considered full contact?

Please dont consider this a snide remark, i just couldnt think of any other way of asking. Thanks

sanshou is generally broken into 3 levels; amateur,semi-pro and pro rules.(or a,b and c class if you like)
all are full conact kickboxing with throws allowed.
amateurs wear protective gear.(body armour and head gear,according to iwuf rules)
semi-pro ,just gloves but no knees and elbows.
pro,just gloves but with knees and elbows.

Niall Keane

“Why is there a chest protector if this is considered full contact?”

An interesting question. Under IWUF rules (Olympic recognized) it’s a must. Under IKF (International Kaoshou) rules it is not employed, though head gear is, and elbows and knees are allowed for amateur. The “British Open” competition run anually in Oxford follows this approach.
A strange thing about the IWUF approach is that shin guards are banned in single amateur fights as opposed to tournaments but chest protectors employed.
To understand why we need to travel back a few years, and to Thai/Sanshou mixed rules.
There was an old rule in IWUF amateur sanshou, now gone, that prohibited two consecutive strikes to the head. When the first mixed rules tournaments were held, China didn’t fair too well.
This was blamed by Chinese coaches on the tendency of their sanshou fighters not to have a good enough guard to the head, and to not be able to cope shin on shin with the Thai’s. So they decided to abandon the two head shot rule and bring in chest guards to get their fighters to head hunt more, and so therefore at the same time develop a better guard. Some also stipulate that politically the chest guards were brought in as most traditional kung fu schools have some sort of Iron Shirt training, and in order to pull people away from the “feudal” practices and into modern Wushu, chest guards were incorporated to negate this particular benefit of traditional training.
The mixed rules had an effect on the scoring of sanshou matches too, no longer would clean throws be worth 3 points, they were reduced to 2. Any strike above the knee counted as one point. So you can imagine it’s easier to score with leg kicks than to execute a clean throw, personally I think this was a bad idea, as throws are now less frequent, due to effort / risk dynamics and the time required to learn a throw as opposed to a kick, and I feel that therefore sanshou has lost a bit of its flavour. Many matches look exactly like Thai, but there are a few good fighters out there with excellent fast throws, which are a real pleasure to watch. The best fighters will have these skills, a good throw can end a fight, or at the very least take the fight out of an opponent, however mediocre fighters never put that much effort in, and I guess it being their nature they won’t put in the time to train to be able to use throws fluently.
Re. full-contact, the protectors are not TKD style, much lighter, designed, so they say, to prevent rib breakages from spinning side / back kicks, although this has happened in one international I recall. You can hit and kick and throw someone to the ground as hard as you like, and win by knockout etc., having fought in amateur and pro I can attest that amateur sanshou is full contact. People wishing to participate should be aware of this. Ching Da exists for those who might want to try out a lite version. (Ching Da = basically a knockout is prohibited, and points are deducted for drawing blood)
Although I’m not too thrilled with a lot of the new rules, being a body shot artist myself, I have to admit that the boxing standard of sanshou has improved, and I can’t ignore the evidence of the China V Thailand annual matches, recent events, since 2002, have seen China win many of them.
The East Coast Open and all amateur ICBA events will be run under IWUF rules. Future Semi-Pro and Pro Fight Nights are in the pipeline. As the sport grows the intention is as a previous poster mentioned to have A, B and C class rankings.
Being involved with the PWKA, the ICBA now has connections with many European countries (19 I think) and their teams. A Euro Sanda league (another name for sanshou) exists with currently 7 annual competitions culminating in a European final each year, ranking points to be picked up by placing 1-4 in each competition. The East Coast Open will be the first recognized sanshou competition in Ireland, to be followed by West Coast and Nationals within 2009. If the numbers participating are encouraging, the national will also be an international open counting as part of the Euro Sanda League.
Regards,
Niall

OLDMAN1

EVERYBODY will be wearing 10oz boxing gloves on the day and the body protectors will be provided on the day but if anybody has one of there own(black or red) they may wear them, just show them to the tournament director on the day to make sure that they are ok, the shin and instep protectors that most people wear in the mma league are fine .

OLDMAN1

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OLDMAN1

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OLDMAN1

all fighters for the sanshou section must pre register by the 28th of june , this is for insurance reasons, just print off the entry form thats on the website www.sanshou.ie fill it in and either post it to the address on the bottom of the form or email it to the address on the site, money should not be sent, everybody pays on the day and i hope to see you all there on the day.

OLDMAN1

remember on 6 days left to register for the sanshou section at the up coming east coast sanshou challenge, no entrys will be taken on the day for sanshou.

Niall Keane

Location: Leisure Point Health & Fitness, Cardiffsbridge Road, Finglas, D11.

Weigh-in:

Saturday 4-5pm or Sunday 10-11am

Fights Begin: 11.30am

Good luck to everyone!

www.sanshou.ie

Niall Keane

Thanks to all the fighters and coaches who got involved in this. Nice to see all the provinces of Ireland represented, and the cross disciplines involved.
We have just over 5 hours of fight video footage, its being edited at the moment; hope to have some clips up on YouTube in about 3 weeks. Likewise results will be up on www.sanshou.ie within a couple of weeks.
The website has some of the fighter’s info who participated up already; we're missing some mug shots so send them in please.

Great to see the interest, and being able to have 7 weight divisions in sanshou and two in Ching Da on the day. For the first proper sanshou event in Ireland this has me encouraged. Some of the middle weights finalists had 4 fights on the day to qualify, and with the next event "West Coast Open" confirmed for 16th of August in Ballina Co. Mayo, ring experience at the format will be quickly gathered.

Remember the Nationals are in November, where the 2010 national team places will be awarded. It is the ICBA's intention to field an Irish Team for as many EWUF International Opens as we can next year and to continue to participate in the PWKA Euro Sanda League.

Hope all who partook enjoyed the experience!

Regards,

Niall

celticdragoncw

Ching Da exists for those who might want to try out a lite version. (Ching Da = basically a knockout is prohibited, and points are deducted for drawing blood)



there were 2 fights stoped in the east coast open, in the SAN SHOU category that were stopped because of a nose bleed. After the blood was wiped away and didnt stop bleeding ( which is the norm and not heavily bleeding at all ) was stopped.

now not to try and make a laugh of any one and i mean this with respect
but how in gods name are you gona justify stopping an adult FULL CONTACT fight over a bloody nose.

by the way think you guys have finaly got this off the ground, hope the success continues.

Niall Keane

Don't think you're being quite fair, the fighters were given 1 minute to stop the bleed, each time, given that they couldn't stop the bleeding after two atempts of 1 minute, and this is amateur, I think that's fair, but it is also international amateur rules, I believe that the same is true for amateur boxing etc. Even in pro events, why do you think in Muay Thai elbows are aimed at the eyebrow? To get an easy TKO. Bottom line is this is a sport, and the event was amateur, I understand that a fighter might feel like they can go on, but why should their opponent have to be awash with their blood? If a bleed wont stop it can indicate more serious problems, why risk this for a sport? What does it prove, maybe if we did alow it to go on, it would be said that the promoters are selfish retarded ****? Remember no fighter got paid!!! Also it has to be said, if you bleed easily, you should know the rules and develop your guard to prevent such from occuring. The fighters them selves have to take responsibility for this.
Beyond that i.e. 1. the safety of the competitor, and 2. in the interest of hygene, if fighters were given indefinatly to recover, then the competition could not run on time. I think you'll agree that there was no messing about, just over 4 hours of fights. one match on, and the next preparing. If you recall, on the only dared interuption I issued a warning to a team that protested a refs decision during a match, I simply will not pander for such dissruption. Complaints can be made officially after fights as stated in IWUF rules. It is not fair to everyone else to disrupt the running of a competition. I've fought all over Europe, and have seen the good and bad running of competitions. Where refs and judges don't have the backbone to make a ruling, the competitions degrade into coaches squabbling. This won't happen to sanshou in Ireland on my watch.
These are the reasons for such TKOs and sanshou certainly isn't alone in such rulings.
I stand over the decision to award TKO for such reasons.
As for "adult full contact" there were also fights that ended in KOs. If in doubt, why not ask those who were helped off the matts. I don't see why you would make such comments about the TKO's and convieniently forget to mention the KO's unless you have some agenda to discredit the sanshou format???

celticdragoncw

for starters i have no such agenda to discredit san shou in ireland as a matter of fact i was trying to help promote it a few years ago and am not the type of person to wish others to do poorly just because im not involved any more.

i think if you look at my previous post youl see me wishing you all luck. i was not being sarcastic.

well if each fighter was given one minuet it didnt feel like it. maby thats because i was gunnin for the guy and time flys when you feel like your in the ring with him lol. and the reason they stop fights in thai depends on where the blood is going ie. into the eye and how much it bleeds. also nobody was awash with any one elses blood. they were small nose bleeds from what i could see. and i was impresses at most of the refs. and was not upset at any of the refs calling the fight because of blood. they follow protocol.


i did see the ko's but i had a query about the bleeding not the ko's.
so am i not to mention any thing i disagree with in case i get tarnished with a brush saying i have an agenda to discredit you. do you san shou lads have a post up so people can only say good things and not allow any critisism. as i recall pointing out a possible flaw helps and or is welcomed by most. but no i the guy who was helping with the opening of san shou schools before i had difference of oppinion with my school association members am trying to discredit you. Do you realy think this is the case Nial? do you really think id be that way vindictive as to try and ruin some ones hard work? or were you just afraid to answer my question with dignity.

Killme00

Comparing cuts to the eyesbrows which bleed into the eyes and impare vision (the reason for stoppages FYI) to nosebleeds is redonkulous. I do agree that fights should be stopped when there is alot of blood coming from the nose but not for a small bleed, there has to be a degree of common sense here rather than stopping the fight at any sign of blood. It is a contact sport afterall.

I couldnt make it to this one but i hope the make it to the West Coast one, it'll be good to see all the old guys again.

OLDMAN1

Look lads ,its as simple as this , the rules states that if you can't stop the blood in 1 minute, the fight has to be stoped, everyone got the 1 minute , it was timed, we can not go against the E.W.F or the I.W.F. we can't make up the rules as we go along, we have to follow the rules as they are set down without changes.(EASTCOAST TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR)

cowzerp

Killme00 wrote: »

Comparing cuts to the eyesbrows which bleed into the eyes and impare vision (the reason for stoppages FYI) to nosebleeds is redonkulous..

I made that word up!
delighted its catching on as its way better than the original!

on topic, if the blood cant be controlled then the fight needs to be stopped, dont get cut and your fine though

wudangclan

personally i felt some of those fighters should have been allowed to carry on as a couple of those nosebleeds were minimal and i don't think there was much risk of any infection.
i know it's in the rules and in these cases the rules were applied but i feel that a spot of blood around the nostril could have been ignored.
just my two cents worth.

Niall Keane

i did see the ko's but i had a query about the bleeding not the ko's.
so am i not to mention any thing i disagree with in case i get tarnished with a brush saying i have an agenda to discredit you. do you san shou lads have a post up so people can only say good things and not allow any critisism. as i recall pointing out a possible flaw helps and or is welcomed by most. but no i the guy who was helping with the opening of san shou schools before i had difference of oppinion with my school association members am trying to discredit you. Do you realy think this is the case Nial? do you really think id be that way vindictive as to try and ruin some ones hard work? or were you just afraid to answer my question with dignity.

Celticdragon,

If you were being sincere fair enough, however, my suspicion about an agenda comes from the following:
First it should be said that we’ve (ICBA) had to jump through hoops to get Irish sanshou where it is, i.e. recognized, there certainly are those (Irish persons) who threw every conceivable spanner in the works and tried to prevent our membership of National, European and World organizations, preventing for a while some of our international team from competing at world championship IWUF events. Some patriots those guys!!! These guys used connections and influence, so unfortunately legally it would be difficult to name and shame them!

On your post, you opened it by quoting my description of Ching Da – sanshou lite. You then used capitals in the following paragraphs for SANSHOU and FULL CONTACT, using the adjective “adult” prior to full contact. I.e. you implied that what occurred wasn’t full contact and was for kids. We are not morons on this forum; we understand the difference between what is said and how it is said.
Given that some fighters got KO.ed on the day this incontestably proves what was held was full contact, given the sincere effort put in by all of the fighters and coaches, given too that this was the first internationally recognized Irish competition, i.e. Irish Sanshou is a sport in its infancy, with all of the vulnerability of infancy, I think that your original post shows great disrespect to the efforts and risks taken by all who partook in and organized the event, i.e. to pose a question that slyly calls into question not a decision but the integrity of an event.
If you genuinely had a question on a decision, you could have asked in a direct manner why those two bouts were stopped without the preceding paragraphs suggesting as they do a fallacy i.e. that what was being run wasn’t full contact. OLDMAM1’s answer would probably have been enough in that case.
But I’m a fighter not a Christian; don’t expect me to turn the other cheek!

As to your original question, facts are the fighters were given two separate opportunities of 1 minute to stop the bleeding, under the supervision of a ring-side doctor. I.e. In both cases, they managed to stop the bleeding at first, but later in the fights they began to bleed again, and on the second attempt they failed to stop the nose bleeds in the allotted minute, or stopped it and were bloodied again during the fight. My advice to such fighters, tighten up your guard, you’ve been tagged 2-3 times on the nose??? And/or get a good Cutman. Then again for all we know, maybe they had a good Cutman? Maybe the bleed was actually a lot worse? Maybe that’s the reason for the rule???

Either way, as Oldman1 said it is not at our discretion to adjust the rules as we go along. ICBA competitions will be run according to internationally accepted IWUF rules, so all fights can be then used by fighters for ranking purposes and fight records etc. We are not in the business of mock-heroics or sensationalism, but in promoting the sport of sanshou.

Funnily enough, a complaints process exists in ICBA, and neither of the fighters have contested the decisions?

Killme00

I have read the rules on the Shanshou website and there is no mention of this rule. In fact the only mention i can see is the requirement for fighters to have their blood pressure checked twenty days before the event?

Edit to add: Im not picking an argument, just pointing something out. I really hope San Shou succeeds.

celticdragoncw

look old man 1 im happy with your explanation of why the ref had to stop the fights due to abiding by the rules. but san shou is a new sport to most people in Ireland and alot of people will have questions. my dissapointment was at the rule not at the fighters, refs or organisers of san shou ireland.

So are san shou ireland happy to answer questions or explain particular reasons for particular situations to the public so it may be understood and grow. or is it going to slander every one who asks for information or tells you they dont understand a part of it with direct attacks of having imaginary agendas of discrediting hard work so many people ( some of whom iv trained with ) have put in?

again lads i wish you all the best.

celticdragoncw

look nial you obviously dont beleive that im sincere about my first post. wishing you luck and hoping for the best for you all. now you know wally dillon. we havent trained together in a while but for many many years id like to think we were close. ask him if im sincere because he knows my opinion on this matter. im not goin down the road of bein an internet tough guy with you just because you dont beleive me.

and i didnt try and write a novel with perfect grammar so build a bridge and get over it. i used capitals to emphasise that i was talking about the san shou category and then to emphasise the FACT that they WERE full contact matches. not my opinion of wether it was or was not. it is a fact that they were full contact and i think your just not willing to concede to the fact that im not out to discredit you all and i was really not understanding why with the blood being so minimal the fight had to be stopped.

Old man 1 understood and answered me perfectly.
Thank you old man 1.

witty username

I see some photos from this are up on www.sanshou.ie now. Good stuff.

Niall Keane

Irish Chinese Boxing Association East Coast Open 05.07.2009
RESULTS
Men Sanshou
+90kg: Gold: Stephen Geddies Silver: Gary Dawson Bronze: Paul Oragano
-90kg: Gold: Joe Melvin Silver: Qi Zheng Bronze: Darrel Smith
-80kg: Gold: Declan Gannon Silver: Ben Barkhoof Bronze: N/A
-75kg: Gold: Dave McNamara Silver: Sean Boyd Bronze: Jakie Zhu
-70kg: Gold: Angus Boyle Silver: Darren Lowry Bronze: Ever Skinbinskis
-65kg: Gold: Karl Kidd Silver: Patrick O’Connor Bronze: N/A

Women Sanshou
-70kg: Gold: Shauna Kinsella Silver: Laura O’Neill Bronze: N/A
Men Ching Da
+90kg: Gold: Gerry Melvin Silver: Mark Scott Bronze: Ciaran Barter
Women Ching Da
-70kg: Gold: Cathrine Costigan Silver: Shauna Kinsella Bronze: N/A