GSP- Won't come back!

Hairy Hunter

Looking for some advice on a mature (7yo) pointer a mate of mine picked up. He got it from a lad who has stopped shooting.

The dog points, retrieves fine, but ranges too far and wont come back when whistled\called till he wants to.

Is a dog of this age a lost cause? Would a No.4 be the best solution?:(

He has tried;
-ranging him on a long lead( works grand till he is off the lead)
-bringing rewards treats( dosent seem to have that much hold over him)
-Carrying dummy when out- this helps keep him intrested, till he gets distracted and fecks off

This has been going on since he got him a few months ago. We were out last night and dog fecked off again would not return for 10mins, my mate is running out of patience.

Thanks,

HH

Trojan911

Hairy Hunter wrote: »

Is a dog of this age a lost cause? Would a No.4 be the best solution?:(

Is it a No:4 shotgun cartridge you are talking about?

If so, why shoot a perfectly healthy dog? If not disregard the rest of my post.

My advice, sell or pass it on to someone who would care more for it, "Would a No.4 be the best solution?" what a rubbish thing to ask (and I'm being polite here)...

Hairy Hunter

Lighten up:p , It was a JOKE about No.4


Anything constructive to add regarding my mates problem?
Who is always kind and gentle with dogs.

Is a dog of this age going to be too set in its ways?

HH

Dusty87

What i did was a long rope and choke chain. Worked but then again my dog was young. What about electric collar? No experience wit one myself but im sure someone could tell you about them.

homerhop

More than likely it will be set in its ways and will be a b**ch to try and correct but it is no harm going back to the basics with it. Like training any dog it takes 15 or 20 minutes every night.The weather is reasonable so no harm in going back over the stop and stay training in your mates back yard. Since both he and the dog are new to working with one and other it will get a good working pattern going and take it from there. If all else fails might try an electric collar for a few days.

Trojan911

Hairy Hunter wrote: »

Lighten up:p , It was a JOKE about No.4

Of course it was....

Hairy Hunter wrote: »

Anything constructive to add regarding my mates problem?

As prevously stated, My advice, sell or pass it on to someone who would care more for it,

Hairy Hunter

Thanks,

He has him out everyday twice, the dog sometimes just decides to ignore the owner. It can be very dangerous around roads, other live stock etc.

Its a real pity because he otherwise has a lovely nature.

Never tried a elec collar, will suggest one though. Always thought they were a bit harsh. But in this case it may be an option.

Is it possible to rent one? I would imagine that they are expensive, and probably are only needed for a short time.

HH.

foxshooter243

HH, any one who resorts to an electric collar or choking a dog by pulling him head over heels have lost their way in the dog training world, those tactics were employed by the the dog "breakers" of old. When i say breakers i mean just that , they ended up with a broken animal, broken in spirit.
Nowadays we are a much more enlighened bunch { I hope:rolleyes:}, its realised that there are no short cuts to producing a good working gundog other than by looking for a quality pup and forming a proper bond with the animal prior to starting the training process , which should be fun for both man and beast and should be a rewarding experience for both.

Taking on a 7 year old animal with faults is like buying a battered out 7 year old car and expecting it to run like a new one..it aint going to happen!
Trojans advice is good in this instance.

greenpeter

Im with foxshooter243 on this one, the only thing i would disagree with him on is i would rather buy a 7year old car and try get it running like a new one. Bringing him out a hundred time a day wont make any difference if anything it will only make things worse because he's getting away with hunting for himself.

deerhunter1

Hairy Hunter wrote: »

Looking for some advice on a mature (7yo) pointer a mate of mine picked up. He got it from a lad who has stopped shooting.

The dog points, retrieves fine, but ranges too far and wont come back when whistled\called till he wants to.

Is a dog of this age a lost cause? Would a No.4 be the best solution?:(

He has tried;
-ranging him on a long lead( works grand till he is off the lead)
-bringing rewards treats( dosent seem to have that much hold over him)
-Carrying dummy when out- this helps keep him intrested, till he gets distracted and fecks off


This has been going on since he got him a few months ago. We were out last night and dog fecked off again would not return for 10mins, my mate is running out of patience.

Thanks,

HH

Why pass on your trouble to someone else,do the right thing put down and start afresh with a young dog. Are you sure his mate gave up shooting or just gave up on the dog. To old to change,put up with it or do the humane thing.
Good luck

pullandbang

Foxshooter, remember that the "dog breakers" of old have given us the dogs we have today. We may have progressed on but we have our olders breeders and trainers to thank for the current gene pool of gun dogs - whatever methods they may have used.

I agree with you about not pulling a dog head over heels on a lead but there's nothing wrong with the electric collar on a stubborn dog. The shock can be adjusted to a low level and it usually only takes a few sessions to put manners on them.

Afterall, this is a 7 year old mature dog, not an impressionable pup and he's going to need different handling. Who knows what sort of handling he got from his previous owner.

To the OP, get a collar and give it a try - you've nothing to lose and everything to gain.

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

HH, any one who resorts to an electric collar or choking a dog by pulling him head over heels have lost their way in the dog training world, those tactics were employed by the the dog "breakers" of old. When i say breakers i mean just that , they ended up with a broken animal, broken in spirit.
Nowadays we are a much more enlighened bunch { I hope:rolleyes:}, its realised that there are no short cuts to producing a good working gundog other than by looking for a quality pup and forming a proper bond with the animal prior to starting the training process , which should be fun for both man and beast and should be a rewarding experience for both.

Taking on a 7 year old animal with faults is like buying a battered out 7 year old car and expecting it to run like a new one..it aint going to happen!
Trojans advice is good in this instance.

I'm sorry but you are not addressing the problem here. You are offering alternative solutions. The request is for advise on this dog. You are merely condeming this dog not helping it!

I use the E-Collar to great affect & my dog is the most affectionate playful free spirited animal you could come across! At times however at 200Yards he might find something a tad more interesting in a ditch, with every instinct engrained into his nature driving him to follow it, than the whistle & thats when a light vibrate of the collar is usually enough to get his attention. You have complete control & can stop the problem at source which is all a dog understands. They can only make the connection if corrected immediately.

A dog needs to be corrected at the instance of the problem so I don't see how this fella could ever be corrected given the nature of the problem otherwise.
Given the comments that he will work fine on the long lead & not off it, then the dog is consiously making the decision to do his own thing when he know's he can. He would quickly learn he has the collar on him & that deviation from whats allowed will equal correction. I agree all of this is easier to train in a young dog & often without collars but some dogs are strong minded just like people & will do their own thing if allowed.

A "broken" dog to use your term would not be running around in circles with excitement when he see's the gear on ready to go if he was in fear & didn't like the experience! He would hide in the run & not come out.
The problem is people who don't read up on the use of collars will put the setting too high & administer the correction at the wrong times. There are plenty of training videos online to help with this, but I would advise he accompany someone who knows what there doing firstly.

PAC are a good brand of collar at 200-250 a go.

I would not give up on any dog & i'm afraid by recommending that he gets a new dog you are advising just this.
Ask yourself what's crueler letting a hunting dog rot in a run til he dies/ getting him put down or trying the collar to give him another chance?

Comparing a dog with a car is like comparing a dog with the gun. A living creature V an inanimate object! Using this logic the dog is a tool to be used on the day, similiar to the gun & if it doesn't work replace it with one that does!

P.S the Number 4 comment was obviously a joke!

Dusty87

The thing i said about the collar was just a suggestion. I have never used one. I was given the advise about the rope on another site FS. I probably should have explained more. I dont pull the dog back wit all my might to hurt him. At first i didn have the choke chain and gave a gentle yank. At 25 yards the dog didn even look back. So i got a choke chain, attached one end of rope to my waist and him on the other, if the dog slowly drifted off the rope kept him in distance. However if he did take off the chain was there. I did this in an open grass field where there would be no distractions to make him take off running. This could be totally wrong approach, i was lookin for advise on this not so long ago, so im by no means expert. Im only beginning with dogs.

thelurcher

Trojan911 wrote: »

Of course it was....

As prevously stated, My advice, sell or pass it on to someone who would care more for it,

I hope you're not suggesting to sell it on as a working dog
Plenty of gangsters in the doggy world doing this as it is - hardly fair on the dog either being passed from pillar to post for years until someone with a bit of cop on cuts their losses and either re-homes it as a pet or has it PTS.

ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU GET A DECENT TRIAL WITH ANY DOG YOU PLAN ON BUYING.

As for the electric collars - the kind of person that would shock the s**t out of a dog to a state where they 'break' wants a good kicking themselves.
That's not how they're meant to be used. I would however be slow to use it myself and wouldn't ever use one on a young dog at all. They are ideal on older more confident animals.

HH - simplest thing to try is to change direction out on walks - you have a good few months yet to the start of the season - i'd have it out every evening - if he's going too far ahead then turn 90 - it'll help remind him that you're still part of the equation out hunting.

Trojan/Foxshooter - all too easy to say what not to do - come on now - put your money where your mouth is and give the lad some good advice from your own experiences in dog handling.

Hairy Hunter

thelurcher wrote: »

I hope you're not suggesting to sell it on as a working dog
Plenty of gangsters in the doggy world doing this as it is - hardly fair on the dog either being passed from pillar to post for years until someone with a bit of cop on cuts their losses and either re-homes it as a pet or has it PTS.

ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU GET A DECENT TRIAL WITH ANY DOG YOU PLAN ON BUYING..

I'll be sure not to make the same mistake when I get one, neither of us have that much experience with them.

thelurcher wrote: »

As for the electric collars - the kind of person that would shock the s**t out of a dog to a state where they 'break' wants a good kicking themselves..

Couldent agree more, thats why using one had not come up.

thelurcher wrote: »

HH - simplest thing to try is to change direction out on walks - you have a good few months yet to the start of the season - i'd have it out every evening - if he's going too far ahead then turn 90 - it'll help remind him that you're still part of the equation out hunting..

Thats exactly what we have been doing, works sometimes, but when he gets a scent hes gone.

thelurcher wrote: »

Trojan/Foxshooter - all too easy to say what not to do - come on now - put your money where your mouth is and give the lad some good advice from your own experiences in dog handling.

I posted here to ask for ideas on modifing the dogs behaviour, not on how to dispose of him. Otherwise he is a great dog, like I said, hunting, pointing and retrieving well, just too independant. It would be sad if he cannot be brought out with others, for fear of him running in on their dogs point or running off chasing game, or going in front of a car.

We will keep trying:)

HH

Trojan911

thelurcher wrote: »

I hope you're not suggesting to sell it on as a working dog

No, as the OP is suggesting it is not viable as a working dog. Re homing it as a pet if possible is my suggestion.

Hairy Hunter

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I'm sorry but you are not addressing the problem here. You are offering alternative solutions. The request is for advise on this dog. You are merely condeming this dog not helping it!

Thank you, people are very quick to jump on you here when you ask for advice:mad:, He dosent want to give it up, but is getting exasperated.

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

A dog needs to be corrected at the instance of the problem so I don't see how this fella could ever be corrected given the nature of the problem otherwise.

Great point (excuse the pun:))

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Given the comments that he will work fine on the long lead & not off it, then the dog is consiously making the decision to do his own thing when he know's he can. He would quickly learn he has the collar on him & that deviation from whats allowed will equal correction. I agree all of this is easier to train in a young dog & often without collars but some dogs are strong minded just like people & will do their own thing if allowed.

This is it, I know he has it in him,he is just deciding not to follow instruction.

Great advice.

HH

Trojan911

Hairy Hunter wrote: »

Thank you, people are very quick to jump on you here when you ask for advice:mad:

By all means ask for advice, if I can help someone I will, just like the vast majority of regular posters that visit this Forum.

But combine that advice with a poor taste in what you called a "Joke" then people, like me, will react accordingly.

If your "Joke" was followed by one of these , then it would be obvious it was a joke, however it was followed by one of these which made the suggestion of using a No:4 plausable.

Get my drift?

EPointer=Birdss

Trojan911 wrote: »

By all means ask for advice, if I can help someone I will, just like the vast majority of regular posters that visit this Forum.

But combine that advice with a poor taste in what you called a "Joke" then people, like me, will react accordingly.

If your "Joke" was followed by one of these , then it would be obvious it was a joke, however it was followed by one of these which made the suggestion of using a No:4 plausable.

Get my drift?

Sensitive much? (I hear this symbol means a joke)
Why would someone who is asking for advise, request the use of a 4 in the same breath if they were serious? Fair enough if it came across a tad iffy to you & I admire your passion on the topic, but for a guy asking advise on the forum it might be more prudent to ask whether he was serious before getting the preverbial knickers in a twist!

To keep on the subject at hand I think I saw on here once that a guy used hide periodically from his dog when he ignored him & that used scare the life out of him as most dogs do not want to be left behind. He then learned over time to always keep an eye on his handler. Never tried it nor could I stand behind the theory but when one gets to their wits end it is worth exploring all options!

Also this dog was obviously trained by someone else for 6 or 7 years, maybe he does not see the new handler as such & it will take time before he respects them as much as the previous! Long 4 months before the season to determine if the situation can be improved....

deeksofdoom

Tell your friend he'ld be far better off if he got rid of that dog and got himself a pup and start afresh. I've tried and failed with a dog like that, the bastard broke my heart, I didn't have the heart to give him away and then one day when he took off and ran in front of a car, thats what happens. Lucky for me there was no one hurt and no damage to the car.

There are plenty of places around the country that will rehome dogs like this, let him be someone else's problem, a no.4 probably is your best option. But to my mind that dog just isn't worthy of wasting anymore time with. He's not worthy of training! Might even put your friend off shooting himself.

foxshooter243

My thoughts on this would be similar, a fresh pup and new start is by far the easier method of getting yourself a good gundog than by trying to take the faults out of a seven year old dog. i have trained plenty of dogs over the years and never used either a rope or electric collar. I have seen quite a few lads taking on older dogs and trying to get them ready for the season by attempting to iron out ingrained faults, the second situation requires the more experienced trainer and causes the most heartache and the truth be told these dogs have a nasty habit of dissappearing.
Its much better to go the easiest route, and thats a lesson i learned myself many years ago when myself and a buddy took on a 4 year old dog..we spent more time looking through binoculars than hunting and my mate tried everything to stop the dog and nothing worked.

Donalmit

Hi HH,

Looks like you/your friend have 3 options open to you here. 1. Start retraining the dog from scratch. This is far more diffficult to achieve than with a young dog as so many bad habits have been ingrained already and the dog will virtually have to be reprogrammed to work the way you want him to. Baby steps are the only way to go. 10-15 minute sessions a few times per day and take no messing from him. Tell him, not ask him. If he is trained to come in with repetitive pips of the whistle close by then ingrain this into him at varing distances. At any refusal (dont give him a second chance) get your running shoes on and chase him down; catch him by the scruff and give him a good shaking; dont hurt him but let him know that you mean business while piping the whistle as loud as you can into his ear. sit him down and get your breath. Release him to hunt again and test him with the turn/recall whistle again. A few sessions of this and he will get the idea that you will not take any nonsense. This takes time but you have to get it right or forget about it altogether. It is the same rules for training any aspect in any dog. If you are not consistant and the boss then that means that he will do as he likes. As EP says using the electric collar just means that you dont have to run the 200 yards to get to him. He still has to be trained/understand the rules the old fashioned way before you go electric or you could wind up punishing him for something he doesnt understand and then you have a dog that has learned nothing. Your second option is to rehome him and buy a pup/started dog. The pup wont be hunting this season but the started dog will and you get to train them the way you want. Your last option is the #4. I dont agree with it but pounds/rescues are full to brim with unwanted pets and a 7 yo may be harder to rehome too.

rgds,

Mitch

ps it is difficult to give advice through these forums as sometimes it takes too long to type and explain exactly what I am trying to say. PM me if you want a chat as I do have a "bit" of experience down through the years and may be able to help.

elgriff

Trojan911 wrote: »

By all means ask for advice, if I can help someone I will, just like the vast majority of regular posters that visit this Forum.

But combine that advice with a poor taste in what you called a "Joke" then people, like me, will react accordingly.

If your "Joke" was followed by one of these , then it would be obvious it was a joke, however it was followed by one of these which made the suggestion of using a No:4 plausable.

Get my drift?

You enjoy wasting time?