[17/06/2009] Dublin - North Quays closed until further notice

cargo

For anyone about to leave the office travelling through Dublin City Centre

From aaroadwatch.ie

*MAIN TRAFFIC* * The North Quays are closed until further notice between Ormond Quay and Capel St due to an incident just before the Ha'penny Bridge. Gardai say it may be some time before this reopens. Drivers are advised to keep this in mind during rush hour and to consider alternative routes. * Church St inbound is already back to the North King St jct. * Pearse St traffic is back to the Macken St jct. * Elsewhere, the N32 is back to the Clonshaugh R/A. * No delays or incidents to report for M50 traffic in either direction at this stage.

Heroditas

Sounds serious. Somebody knocked down possibly?

Gumbo

looking out my window now at the traffic!
hope its nothing too serious but the quays are still closed.

i can see as far down as the Halfpenny bridge but cant see anything that resembles a fire brigade or ambulance etc etc

KevR

Bit of an update from the AA:

The North Quays and all adjoining routes should be avoided. *MAIN TRAFFIC* * The North Quays have been closed since 4pm and are unlikely to reopen for some time, following a serious incident between Ormond Quay and Capel St near Ha'penny Bridge. A huge number of city routes have now been impacted by traffic delays. * All approaches to the North Quays are already severly congested, particularly from FROM THE SOUTHSIDE; Pearse St is tailing back to the canal. Slow from Clanbrassil St through to Dame St, which is busy bothways. Camden St inbound is back to Kelly's Corner and it's heavy back to the SCR jct on St. John's Rd West approaching the Quays. * Approaching the Quays FROM THE NORTHSIDE: Church St inbound is back to before Constitution Hill. and Capel st inbound is almost back to Parnell St. Delays from North Strand through to Amiens St. * The South Quays are heavy from Memorial Bridge right through to Ushers Island.

Gumbo

Talking to a guard as i left work, he said an unlucky man stepped out infront of a bus full of school kids.

The man died, RIP.

Traffic backed up all around the quays, Dame Street, Winetavern Street, Parnell Street etc etc

meglome

Saw the bus parked up on the closed quay and suspected that someone might have got run over. Once you see the garda tape going up it's not a good sign.

FruitLover

Walked by the scene shortly after it happened, saw the bus with a dark patch (blood, presumably) underneath, figured it must have been a ped accident.

It's incredible the amount of people who'll run across the road in front of traffic along the quays, rather than wait the few seconds for the lights (this accident was right in front of the millennium bridge lights). I wonder if whatever he was in such a hurry for was worth his life? :rolleyes:

markpb

FruitLover wrote: »

It's incredible the amount of people who'll run across the road in front of traffic along the quays, rather than wait the few seconds for the lights (this accident was right in front of the millennium bridge lights). I wonder if whatever he was in such a hurry for was worth his life? :rolleyes:

The problem is that the delay for pedestrian lights in Dublin is huge compared to other cities because the council have a policy of prioritising car throughput in the city centre. If you make people wait silly amounts of time, people will take silly shortcuts.

RobY

According to the Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0617/breaking61.htm), the man was in his 70s.

Perhaps he thought he could make it?

Having said that, I travel down that way most mornings and people are always walking straight out of that Italian Quarter laneway into traffic on their way to the Millennium Bridge. And usually, they are on mobiles and not looking...

Rob

Terrontress

those lights were one of the first I had ever seen with countdown timers. And they always seemed to only allow cars through for 30 sec before allowing pedestrians.

30 sec as a worst case scenario is hardly a silly amount of time.

markpb

Terrontress wrote: »

those lights were one of the first I had ever seen with countdown timers. And they always seemed to only allow cars through for 30 sec before allowing pedestrians.

30 sec as a worst case scenario is hardly a silly amount of time.

They don't display anything until 30 seconds before the lights go green - they could be green for 2-3 minutes before that. Some crossings in Dublin are over four minutes. Some are two minutes but only half way. In comparison, Tfl aim for 90 seconds where possible. I'm in Amsterdam at the moment where the delays are generally under ten seconds at night.

L1011

TfLs lights however give the orange pre-notification for going green which means traffic gets off quicker. We lose 10-15 seconds of each sequence at a direct pedestrian crossing and more at a junction due to drivers not getting ready until they see green. Put on the orange light and they could easily cut some green time away.

cyclopath2001

MYOB wrote: »

TfLs lights however give the orange pre-notification for going green which means traffic gets off quicker. We lose 10-15 seconds of each sequence at a direct pedestrian crossing and more at a junction due to drivers not getting ready until they see green. Put on the orange light and they could easily cut some green time away.

Given that most Irish drivers won't stop for an amber light, if we introduced what you propose, they'd just take off on amber.

L1011

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Given that most Irish drivers won't stop for an amber light, if we introduced what you propose, they'd just take off on amber.

There is still a red light when the orange comes on - I take it you've never actually driven in the UK. Most drivers in the UK do not stop for an orange either, possibly worse than here.

BendiBus

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Given that most Irish drivers won't stop for an amber light, if we introduced what you propose, they'd just take off on amber.

What happens in Northern Ireland? Are there more accidents at traffic lights up there? (I don't know the answer btw.)

gerire

FruitLover wrote: »

Walked by the scene shortly after it happened, saw the bus with a dark patch (blood, presumably) underneath, figured it must have been a ped accident.

It's incredible the amount of people who'll run across the road in front of traffic along the quays, rather than wait the few seconds for the lights (this accident was right in front of the millennium bridge lights). I wonder if whatever he was in such a hurry for was worth his life? :rolleyes:

Everyone here appears to have mixed the crux of this; A man died, deepest sympathys to his family, thoughts are with them,

Also with the emergency services and Gardaí 1st at scene who had to witness such a horrific scene of a man being crushed bu a 50 seater bbus; And of course kkeep in mind those people of the public and the bus driver who are now traumatised having seen it unfold in front of them

KevR

Sad to hear about that old man being killed - RIP

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Given that most Irish drivers won't stop for an amber light, if we introduced what you propose, they'd just take off on amber.

Someone suggests a way of making our traffic light sequences more effecient, which in turn would ease traffic, which in turn would allow for pedestrians to get their sequence with less waiting, which in turn would possibly/hopefully reduce the number of people crossing the road when there is a red pedestrian light because they are sick of waiting for a green pedestrian light...

... and you dismiss it with a sly remark about drivers. Not a very good or constructive counter-argument from you to be honest.

Also, it should be pointed out that many pedestrians start crossing the road after the pedestrian light has gone amber and plenty of cyclists break lights (often red ones!) so you could say they're a lot worse than motorists.

markpb

KevR wrote: »

Also, it should be pointed out that many pedestrians start crossing the road after the pedestrian light has gone amber and plenty of cyclists break lights (often red ones!) so you could say they're a lot worse than motorists.

Lets try not to descend into a us/them flame war, please? A man died, we don't know the circumstances at all.

trad

Had a look at the traffic cameras, doesn't seem too bad

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/pages/trafficcamerasmap.aspx

KevR

markpb wrote: »

Lets try not to descend into a us/them flame war, please? A man died, we don't know the circumstances at all.

You're right, apologies from me. Just for the record though I wasn't assuming the circumstances, I have no idea how this unfortunate accident came about. But I was addressing the (very possibly unrelated) point that some pedestrians cross when they shouldn't because of the long wait for a green pedestrian light and also I was defending motorists after an unfair (in my opinion) comment was made.

As you said, a man died and this isn't the thread for discussing other issues that were brought up.

RIP

Jip

Sorry to hear about that.

I'm not saying that poor punfortunate man did it but as others brought it up, I use the south quays every evening and it is insane the amount of pedestrians who will take a chance by darting infront of you, particularly at the Ha'penney Bridge. I can live with people running but most people seem to just walk across and are almost daring you to hit them, they don't acknowledge that they see you coming and will continue to calmly walk across the road despite the approaching traffic.

And I'm not looking at this from the point of view of motorist vs pedestrian, I'm also a pedestrian around the city most of the say as well as a jogger.

MOH

markpb wrote: »

The problem is that the delay for pedestrian lights in Dublin is huge compared to other cities because the council have a policy of prioritising car throughput in the city centre. If you make people wait silly amounts of time, people will take silly shortcuts.

The other daft thing here is the way pedestrian traffic lights at junctions never go green unless the button is pushed before they reach that phase - even if they're in a phase where no traffic can be passing through the pedestrian crossing. You have to push the button, then wait until they cycle through to that phase again, which could be another 3-4 minutes. Which encourages people to cross at the red if they think there's no traffic passing through.

The pedestrian lights should be green whenever the crossing is free of traffic, regardless of whether the button was pushed.

Just back from Dubrovnik, where the first two times I pushed the button at a pedestrian crossing it instantly went green. Though my timing was very good until I realised the system there is that ped light stays red, but if anyone pushes the button while there's no traffic through the crossing, it goes green. That's a reasonable compromise.

markpb

MOH wrote: »

The other daft thing here is the way pedestrian traffic lights at junctions never go green unless the button is pushed before they reach that phase - even if they're in a phase where no traffic can be passing through the pedestrian crossing. You have to push the button, then wait until they cycle through to that phase again, which could be another 3-4 minutes. Which encourages people to cross at the red if they think there's no traffic passing through.

I asked DCC about this ages ago and, again, it's because of their policy of prioritising cars. They said that if the lights automatically go green for pedestrians, they must stay green for a certain length of time even if no-one is crossing. This means the system cannot change cycle if cars are waiting at a red light and thus, delaying cars.

Terrontress

markpb wrote: »

They don't display anything until 30 seconds before the lights go green - they could be green for 2-3 minutes before that. Some crossings in Dublin are over four minutes. Some are two minutes but only half way. In comparison, Tfl aim for 90 seconds where possible. I'm in Amsterdam at the moment where the delays are generally under ten seconds at night.

My mistake, it's the Halpenny Bridge lights I'm thinking of.

MadsL

I asked DCC about this ages ago and, again, it's because of their policy of prioritising cars. They said that if the lights automatically go green for pedestrians, they must stay green for a certain length of time even if no-one is crossing. This means the system cannot change cycle if cars are waiting at a red light and thus, delaying cars.

As opposed to the current system.

1. Press button
2. Ah, nothing is coming - cross road
3. 30 sec later light goes red
4. Cars sit at red light looking at an empty crossing

:rolleyes:

Terrontress

Quite often when people on here have mentioned relatively high salaries of train drivers, people have always responded with the potential for someone to jump out in front of the train and the stress that causes to the driver.

I'll tell you one thing, bus drivers have it tough and most definitely are not appreciated enough. And yesterday's incident highlights that. RIP to the victim but my thoughts are most definitely with the driver trying to operate under several of the poorest of systems.

murphaph

markpb wrote: »

I asked DCC about this ages ago and, again, it's because of their policy of prioritising cars. They said that if the lights automatically go green for pedestrians, they must stay green for a certain length of time even if no-one is crossing. This means the system cannot change cycle if cars are waiting at a red light and thus, delaying cars.

This is the primary reason that Puffin crossings have been developed in the UK. There are a couple of Puffin sites in South Dublin but I don't know if any are functional. There's a functional one in Eniscorthy for sure as it has nearside indicators and these crossings must be fully functional.

FruitLover

gerire wrote: »

A man died

He didn't just spontaneously drop dead, he got himself killed.

If there's any good that can come of it, it'll be that people might realize how dangerous running across the quay roads can be.

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

TfLs lights however give the orange pre-notification for going green which means traffic gets off quicker. We lose 10-15 seconds of each sequence at a direct pedestrian crossing and more at a junction due to drivers not getting ready until they see green. Put on the orange light and they could easily cut some green time away.

The lights in Newry and Belfast only show orange and red for about a second, maybe 2s at most. I don't see how these 2 seconds gain up to 13s of time for road traffic.

I presume the lights in London use a similar amount of red and orange time.

L1011

Carawaystick wrote: »

The lights in Newry and Belfast only show orange and red for about a second, maybe 2s at most. I don't see how these 2 seconds gain up to 13s of time for road traffic.

I presume the lights in London use a similar amount of red and orange time.

Drivers seem to be more attuned to seeing red/orange appear than they are for green. Also people are willing to sit on the horn immediately on green if someone isn't moving off as they've already had a chance to get ready - there are lights here (the ones at Kingswood Luas stop comes to mind) where for some reason there's a higher than 50/50 chance of the driver at the top of the queue not noticing green at all and everyone being too polite to beep them.

Nearly sure the red/orange is on longer than 2 seconds also, wouldn't bet on it though.

cyclopath2001

MYOB wrote: »

where for some reason there's a higher than 50/50 chance of the driver at the top of the queue not noticing green at all

He's using his handphone?

walzer

markpb wrote: »

I asked DCC about this ages ago and, again, it's because of their policy of prioritising cars.

Well you can argue about the technical issues till the cows come home, but the above statement just says it all. As long as they prioritise cars, pedestrians will come second. At least the DCC are honest.

I came back here from living in continental Europe for over 6 years, and it was as obvious as the nose on your face that pedestrians come bottom of the list in Dublin. It's not just at traffic lights; in most continental countries at any junction without traffic lights where a car is turning, it will give way to pedestrians. According to Irish rules, they only have to give way if a pedestrian is already crossing. And in practice, they hardly give way at all.

bk

You know it is very strange to me that DCC prioritise cars over pedestrians.

DCC makes most of their money from rates paid by city center business, who make most of their money from passing foot traffic. Most of the cars are just driving through the city and not stopping. So it make no sense for them to prioritise cars.

walzer

I suppose the reality is you can slow down pedestrians (with red lights) quite a lot and pedestrian traffic will still move. But if you block car traffic, when there are already too many cars, the streets will just grind to a halt. It's an easy option.

murphaph

In Germany (and elsewhere) all traffic (vehicular and pedestrian) in a given direction gets a simultaneous green and pedestrians have priority over vehicular traffic in such situations. It mean there are never phases when all vehicular traffic is stopped to allow peds to cross.

This system totally depends on good driving and responsible pedestrians of course.

MOH

walzer wrote: »

I suppose the reality is you can slow down pedestrians (with red lights) quite a lot and pedestrian traffic will still move. But if you block car traffic, when there are already too many cars, the streets will just grind to a halt. It's an easy option.

Slow down pedestrians with red light too much and they'll start taking chances against the lights, which leads to accidents.

walzer

MOH wrote: »

Slow down pedestrians with red light too much and they'll start taking chances against the lights, which leads to accidents.

Agreed - shame DCC seem to prioritise traffic movement over this safety aspect.

L1011

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

He's using his handphone?

Generally not. Just too dozy to notice a directional green appear from within a bank of red. Followed by everyone behind them giving them far too much chance to see it before beeping.

Capt'n Midnight

MYOB wrote: »

TfLs lights however give the orange pre-notification for going green which means traffic gets off quicker. We lose 10-15 seconds of each sequence at a direct pedestrian crossing and more at a junction due to drivers not getting ready until they see green. Put on the orange light and they could easily cut some green time away.

This does not increase car through put because there are less amber gamblers because they know the others will be coming through the junction earlier. Is this worth considering too ?