What type of developers is better?

Inspired2010

Hello!
Could anyone tell me based on own experience what is better for end result? find cheap freelancers for web developing? or go to some exist company with big experience but for more expensive price? and if the project will not be regular, if it is some individual idea? I mean if this idea is specific? not regular and basically you need to write new engine or maybe take exist one but reprogram it fully for your needs?
what is better relating to end result, time and money?

also I'm wondering about prices? how much might cost web portal designed on individual idea with some kind of flash animation and database. and let's say with several main parts which has sub parts and this all something about 20 web pages?

Hoku

As soon as you mention "custom back-end" (or induvidual idea, as you called it) to any developer - freelance or company -you are going to see no less than 4 digits in the price-tag.

Here's a pricelist of a web developer I came across:

Basic Package - € 890
Free consultation and design mockups
Free hosting for 12 months
Free .com domain name
Professional layout
5 pages website
5 Email account
Logo Design
Contact Form
Free submission to Google, Yahoo and MSN
Search Engine Optimization
Up to three round of revisions

Add-Ons:
Flash Banner - € 150
Easy Content Management - € 320
Blog – € 320
Calendar - € 85
Flash Animation – € 150
Custom Flash Animation – contact for a quote
Forum – € 320
Photo Gallery - € 180
Guestbook - € 120
Newsletter and unlimited email accounts - € 110
Additional Page - € 21 each
Members’ Area - € 120
Website Stats - € 90
Multimedia - € 160

In other words - unless you have a very large budget, settle for an existing CMS which can be customized with publicly available add-ons. Then the greatest expenditure would be the designer. Making your design into a CMS template you could get done by a freelancer for €70 - €150 maybe, depending on the complexity of your design.

p

A good freelancer can be cost effective, but it's hard to find good freelancers as they're usually very busy and there's a lot of jokes out there.

A design company is more of a sure thing and will probably offer a better long term relationship and be able to invest more time. If you need lots of planning and aren't sure what you want it's better to go with a company.


Hard to tell based on such little information as you've provided. We'd need to know what the project is, what the budget is, what your background is, what staff an dfacilities are available to you (if any) and what time you have to personally allocate to the project.

if you don't know the answer to most of those questions, hire a good company, and they'll do a good job of finding out the answer with you.

Eoin

I just tried to outsource some very basic design work to a guy abroad (guess what country) and it's been a disaster. All I wanted him to do was use a template I downloaded, customise it and give me a properly XHTML coded result.

Rather than slicing the PSD template that came with it, he used the horrible HTML version (more tables than a furniture store) and changed the hue on the background colours. I gave him a second chance, and gave him the opportunity to tart up the menu so I could integrate it with the CSS version I had to do, but no response as yet.

If you do want to outsource, you are going to have to be absolutely crystal clear on your requirements and what you want out of the project - and also go with someone that can be recommended by someone you know. There are just too many cowboys out there.

Hoku

A little off-topic, but did you get the template done as required in the end?

Eoin

Not really. I ended up coding it myself and only used the new background images the guy used. That was the only thing he did that I used. It's for a friend's site, so just waiting for him to get back to me on what I've done so far.

Inspired2010

Ughu... As I see better to go with a company, but I believe that freelancer would be cheaper...
any recommendation? does anyone had experience with someone good? whom you can recommend?
About questions:
Yes know that you need more details, but I cant provide it here on open forum, but we know the purpose of the idea, we know group of people to whom it will be related, and I might say that it something about 150k people in total. We do understand that the price would be in four digits for sure and we ready for it! I was just asking for advice what is better company or freelancers? and as far as I get freelancer might be cheaper but too many "clowns" out there!

About back ground: we are students with good idea, which can have a good future! as you remember Bill Gates develop his 1st OS in college

About available facilities: at the moment we have nothing, but we will have all what we might need in the future

About time: we planning to spend all available time on it, part of our real work, in future I believe our project will replace our jobs and will become more than just idea.

Eoin

A freelancer might well be a very experienced person who just happens to do work in their spare time, so you might well get a good result for cheaper. The downsides are that they may not be able to give you the same support response/resolution times as a full time company, and may not be able to deliver the project as quickly.

I'd just be careful picking a cheap freelancer from a developing country based on the price. Firstly, the language barrier can be a problem, and secondly the truth of the matter is that there are loads of people flooding the market who don't know what they are doing. Even if it costs you nothing but your time to find this out, it's a complete pain in the hole. Portfolios can be easily knocked together from template sites and so on.

tomED

Obviously I run and own a web development company, so you could say I am being slightly biased when I say use a company over a "cheap" freelancer. But in all honesty I'm not at all.

We have used freelancers in the past for our company when we've need to handle overflow of work and our experiences have been mixed.

The one thing for us is that regardless of the freelancer we use, their standards tend not to be at a level where we are happy. I'm not saying that all freelancers are like that, but we have a certain level of standards that most that we've worked with tend not to reach.

On the flip side - if you are happy to work with a more expensive freelancer, the standards tend to improve (not in all cases).

The general consensus for us is that when you use a freelancer, you tend to have to hold their hand a little. You need to do most of the testing and provide a lot of feedback.

If you think you have the time and expertise to do this, outsource to a cheap freelancer - you WILL save money in the short term, but it will take a lot of your time (and knowledge) to make sure it works properly.

If you are new to this, I'd have to strongly recommend a reputable company - remember - there are a lot of gangsters in this business too!

p

Also, there's a big difference between someone who dabbles in freelancing part time (I wouldn't even call that person a freelancer) someone who's contracting awhile, and someone who's actually been freelancing for a few years and plans to continue you to do so. The latter is more expensive, but will generally be better suited to manage your projects. It all varies so much though it's hard to generalise.


Inspired2010 - You say you can't say too much about it. You don't need to share the idea, but more about functionality. That is more important to the cost of the project. Also, withouth knowing functionality there's no reason the site couldn't hit 5 figures based on what little you've said so far.

tricky D

tomED wrote: »

The general consensus for us is that when you use a freelancer, you tend to have to hold their hand a little. You need to do most of the testing and provide a lot of feedback.

This is a telling statement and is true of most freelancers and many companies. However, a good sign which suggests you've got a 'real deal' freelancer/company is when they're the ones holding your hand, tackling issues you might not be aware of and guiding you into good practices. So many of freelancers out there don't actually have that much experience and expertise, and very often exhibit a fundamental lack of knowledge of how to go about doing business on the web and business in general. The same may be said of companies, but not to anywhere near the same degree as the very fact they are companies suggests a higher level of professionalism, but not always. Trouble with web development and amateurism is that there is a very low barrier to entry. There are so many instances of people calling themselves designers/developers who only have a handful of sites done. As with most business sectors, there's a proporation of companies who are top notch, many companies who do a fair job and many at the bottom end. The low barrier to entry and huge scope of what can be involved in web development means there's a helluva lot at the lower end. It's difficult to weed these out and get a higher end solution. To give yourself a better opportunity, you need to do plenty of research, talk to previous clients and other similar businesses, make sure the solution provider uses contract, proposal, schedule, scope, etc. documents and get quotes and proposals from a good number of companies/freelancers. Too many business get ripped off because they simply didn't do enough shopping around, so don't let that happen.

Good luck and happy hunting.

Inspired2010

p wrote: »

Inspired2010 - You say you can't say too much about it. You don't need to share the idea, but more about functionality. That is more important to the cost of the project. Also, withouth knowing functionality there's no reason the site couldn't hit 5 figures based on what little you've said so far.

I'm not sure that I have enough knowledge's to explain to you our functionality.
All what I can say, we planning to host at the beginning on some VPS, so we will not buy server at the 1st moment. So I can't tell you parts specification of the server.
We know the audience for whom we will do it, and we know that it something around 150k people in that group.
Our web portal should have database, so it's not just simple 5 pages informative website, it's going to be web portal for specific people and so on...
we have small team at the moment, which consist of students, and we are planning to finance this project from our own money. now I'm wondering about price? because budget for our idea is not stable yet... and if I will go to anyone, and ask how much this might cost, they might add much more on top of the real price, when they understand that I'm not very competent in that question.
is 5k budget fine for developing web site with database, a bit of flash animation and let's say something about 15 pages in total? or even less?

ScumLord

Hoku wrote: »

Here's a pricelist of a web developer I came across:

Man those add-on prices are crazy. Some are 30 minutes of work.

Those company's are going to use free cms the likes of drupal anyway.

p

[QUOTE=Inspired2010;60761669
is 5k budget fine for developing web site with database, a bit of flash animation and let's say something about 15 pages in total? or even less?[/QUOTE]
Website with database doesn't say enough to me. Most websites have a database. Most blogs have a database. What's in the DB, how you access it is what matters.

Who edits the DB, you'll probably need some kind of interface built for that. Will it be just you editing the site, or can other people update it. Is it products, listing, an online shop etc... There's lots more to a site than just saying it's a 'database site'.

5K isn't a huge amount for this type of thing, but it's possible to do it for that price. Just pick the people you work with carefully.

Inspired2010

By mentioning DB I mean that web site will have a database which will update by simple users, and admins will clean something in it if required. It should have options to upload files, but with very big limit, it’s not like “Rapidshare” idea, it’s just small option for users if they’re small needs and this uploaded file should be deleted as soon someone on other side receive it once. It should have special place for each user of DB, where is possible for him to hold and change some text or file. And of cause we need interface for it!
Could you tell me step by step how to develop website? I mean how to bring your idea in to live?
What are you doing first, with whom do u meet in 2nd, which specialist you have to find in 3d, briefly explanation of each specialist, what is he doing, how usually charge (per work done, by parts, before any work done etc...) and how much might coast each step?

p

Inspired2010 wrote: »

Could you tell me step by step how to develop website? I mean how to bring your idea in to live?
What are you doing first, with whom do u meet in 2nd, which specialist you have to find in 3d, briefly explanation of each specialist, what is he doing, how usually charge (per work done, by parts, before any work done etc...) and how much might coast each step?

Can I explain to you step by step how to do something it takes years of experience to understand and learn? You're out of your depth here. Best bet is to find a decent company you trust, and let them solve these problems for you. As long as you've got the core business goals in mind, they'll take care of you as much as possible with your budget.

jimmycrackcorm

Do up a really detailed specification and put it up on rentacoder.com. Compare supplier quotes and ratings on previous jobs.

Inspired2010

By saying step by step I actually mean kind of simple guide without technical details

Something like:
1) Write down your idea about web site on the paper
2) Take mountains of pages and try to draw each page which you planning to have as much detailed as possible, with arrows showing how pages are joined...
3) Take this mountain of paper to some specialist...
4) bla bla bla... and so on

I'm just not sure how is it suppose to go step by step and which specialist i suppose to find first before go to another? It would be stupid go to DB programmer if web engine is not ready yet, isn’t it? I hope you get my point?


and thanx very much for everyone who already answered to me and share information! I’m very appreciate! thnx one more time!

p

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Do up a really detailed specification and put it up on rentacoder.com. Compare supplier quotes and ratings on previous jobs.

This is a terrible suggestion. The guy has a good idea, but doesn't know how to design or spec a website. He needs to hire someone who can handle that.

Inspired2010 wrote: »

By saying step by step I actually mean kind of simple guide without technical details

Step 1. Find someone in your extended family, friends or connections with a) a business background and b) an experience web background.

With Associate A, get them to help you write a very brief 1 or 2 page mini-business plan. What the site does, who it's for, costs, overheads, how you'll make money, time to profitability etc...

With Associate B, get them to ask you a few core questions about functionality, goals etc... I'd recommend going through Pixelcraft's questionnaire and filling it out as a group:
http://pixelcraft.ie/nojs_download.php

Step 2. Find a good company, tell them your budget, and see what they can do for you within that budget. (This could backfire, but you could offer the company a stake in your new venture which might make up for your low budget and inexperience)

Step 3. See what happens.

colm_c

Most if not all web design companies will have analysts that based on your idea will work with you to create a specification document and a set of clear requirements.

This should include basic wireframes, flows and any other deliverables that would get an accurate quote.

Without these documents, it's almost impossible to get someone else to build it for you, without them taking on to do these documents as part of their work and adjusting their quote as the requirements change.

The same company could also build the thing or you could go down the route of sending this document out for tender and quotes.

Inspired2010

ughu ok, "p" nice questions, very helpful for my self and for developers i believe

at this stage i got 2 responds from 2 freelancers, bus as you saed before "too many clowns out there"

so my question is: Could you tell me what type.kind of question I better ask those freelancers to understand weather they are clowns or good professionals?

could you give me some kind of questions like list in pixelcraft.ie for developers?

Sully

There is no definite answer to this. I took on some excellent freelancers and have came across some very poor freelancers. Purely from a hiring perspective and the experience I had with them.

Personally, you have a better chance of success going with a company because its proven to work. Freelancers, its hard to tell how good they actually are unless you see a decent portfolio and get them working with you. At least with a company you have some sort of guarantee.

Mick Regan

Hi Inspired,

You're going to be going round in circles on this one until you sit down with someone who knows the web-development business.

A good approach would be to pick a reputable company (maybe you get the feel that you've already been communicating with such here on boards.ie), and either arrange a conference call with them, or better yet go and meet for an hour or so and spell out your needs. (Prepare well and take one of your colleagues with you - 4 ears are better than 2!).

Don't focus too much on the jargon (that's for others to worry about), just go with a reasonable outline of what you're trying to achieve. Document the meeting, or ask the supplier to do it, and make sure you're all on similar wavelengths - then ask for a provisional quote.

The key to this will be on-going communication. Stage by stage checks that what the development company is doing is in line with what you're expecting (making sure each bit is correct before moving on to the next).

Similar to the approach you'd take if you were building your own house.

Going this way you'll soon get a feel if you're dealing with the right people, and you're more likely to get what you envisaged in the first place.

Sully

Mick Regan wrote: »

Hi Inspired,

You're going to be going round in circles on this one until you sit down with someone who knows the web-development business.

A good approach would be to pick a reputable company (maybe you get the feel that you've already been communicating with such here on boards.ie), and either arrange a conference call with them, or better yet go and meet for an hour or so and spell out your needs. (Prepare well and take one of your colleagues with you - 4 ears are better than 2!).

Don't focus too much on the jargon (that's for others to worry about), just go with a reasonable outline of what you're trying to achieve. Document the meeting, or ask the supplier to do it, and make sure you're all on similar wavelengths - then ask for a provisional quote.

The key to this will be on-going communication. Stage by stage checks that what the development company is doing is in line with what you're expecting (making sure each bit is correct before moving on to the next).

Similar to the approach you'd take if you were building your own house.

Going this way you'll soon get a feel if you're dealing with the right people, and you're more likely to get what you envisaged in the first place.

Excellent post.