journalism advice anyone?

not bakunin

hi, im just looking for some advice.

basically, i'm a leaving cert student who has a journalism course in UL down first for september. it's there because i love writing and english would be my forte, also my aunt is a journalist and i have always been interested in her work. i amn't saying that i'm good at writing or anything, because i realise that that can be a muchness of subjective anti-good, and i'm wary of it. but i do know that i love writing. i don't really want to do anything else, because nothing really seems to appeal to me as much as this course. however, recently i have been unable to block out the dangerous buzzes of dischord and bad vibes coming from advice givers and such. will i be ok doing the course, or is the whole industry f ucked? is 4 years long enough to allow it sort out?
i have a few days in which to change my CAO, and im contemplating it....or should i run the course....hmm...


well, anyways, id appreciate some advice, and the reason i posted it here and not the LC forum was so that i could hopefully garner some real information and not the usual gormless bull which emnates from most of my vacuos f ucking peers.....'ooh follow your dreams..."

yeah, thanks

BarneyMagee

If it's something you love to do then go for it.

Yea the industry (like all others) is quiet at the moment but there will still be plenty of opportunities for you to use your talent when you graduate. No doubt the industry will change over the coming years but there will always be a demand for talented writers. It doesn't mean our only opportunity is as a journalist. With a degree you will have lots of further possible careers to follow.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are earning good money in a job they don't like who would gladly turn back the clock to do something they love.

Linguo

I did a journalism degree that gave you a taste of a wide variety of aspects of the media such as radio, tv, publishing, photography etc. so if you choose a course like that you're giving yourself a much greater choice of jobs as well, best of luck!

kpbdublin

Many journalists have a low opinion of media courses, but it may be a good option.
Don't rule out an arts degree, followed by an MA in journalism. DCU has the most widely recognised MA.
The crucial thing is to get articles published. I would advise any budding journalist to start blogging.
We had a student who came in on placement to my publication. She was asked to write an article for a first person column and was able to dig up one of her blog posts for immediate publication.

not bakunin

thanks for the responses. i was originally going to do a general arts degree in NUIG, with my eye on a postgrad in journalism, but the E16,000 price tag somewhat deterred me...

yep, i do intend to write like hell once i get down there. thats a good idea about the blog, thanks. ill set one up this summer so...........more mindless ramblings and inane crap broadcasted to the world...bet you cant wait.

thank you!

jdivision

Mate, if you want to do journalism and think it's for you do it. The desire to do it is the key. When we're pointing out the state of the industry it's so that you can make an informed choice. Again, making it in journalism is 80% effort and 20% luck. Sounds like you won't have a problem on the effort side. Good luck with it.

Ken Griffin

Firstly, I hope that your written English is better than your online English!

You have an interesting dilemma alright and I'm not going to prescribe any course of action because it's a big life-changing decision which should only be taken by you.

But I will address some of the questions raised in your original post:

Is the industry screwed: At the moment, like all industries, it's in trouble and has been for over a year. But you won't be graduating until 2013 so I wouldn't worry too much about the current situation.

Can it recover in four years: Maybe. Things can change a lot during that time - only 2/3 years ago, crowds like Setanta (RIP?) and various new local newspapers (mostly RIP) were recruiting journalism students like mad on high salaries.

Other issues:
* Pay and conditions in the sector generally aren't great and have been worsening over the years.

* You also need to assess your level of commitment to journalism - whether you are more interested in creative writing or some other form of prose than journalism. If you are, go and do an Arts course.

* If you're not 100% sure, consider doing an Arts course and then an MA in Journalism. I sort of regret doing a BA in Journalism because it really limits your future further educations options. Then again, I got a job because of it!

constitutionus

we dont have journalists in this country mate.

we have media correspondants and opinion writers so be prepared to jettison your principles for what your editor wants.

its sad but its true that your main funtion will be to flog advertising for whatever paper or magazine you end up on and that may involve compromising yourself big time.

good luck.

Ken Griffin

constitutionus wrote: »

we dont have journalists in this country mate.

That's completely uncalled for. I certainly have never been asked to sell advertising for a paper.

beks101

Hi OP,

Just a few things I wish I had been told before I went on to study journalism...


It is ALL ABOUT the practical experience. That's what qualifies you to future employers, that's what matters on the CV, that's what teaches you how to be a journalist. Now saying this, my BA in Journo is what got me in the door, but had I known how much more two years working in a newsroom would teach me than the four years I studied theories about newsrooms, I would have made a concerted effort to get far more hands-on experience than I did.
Start pitching to local papers, volunteering in your local radio station and when you start college, throw yourself into the student newspaper.


Go into it with an open mind. I went in with a passion for writing, convinced that I'd end up in print and have some sort of book deal by this stage (ever the romantic )...Never thought for a second about broadcast...which is where I now work and I love it.

Someone else mentioned it's 80% hard work, 20% luck....I would say 90/10. Work your balls off and you'll go far. Do everything and anything, from making tea to writing headlines, autocue, guest greeting...take anything you can get. Being known as a hard worker will get you places.


Best of luck!

D'Agger

I know it's late to give advice seeing as you've prob filled in the relevant forms etc. but believe me - I am a keen enough writer - loved English, writing essays,short stories and so on...I listened to people telling me I should go into IT due to the fact that there's well paid jobs to be got out of it, I was only just turned 17 doing the leaving and I seriously regret listening to other people, I'm in a course that I don't like but I've put in 3 years and feel I've to stick it out at this stage - do what you enjoy and work at it to be the best you can put happiness first not money IMO Best of luck with it anyway!

santosubito

constitutionus wrote: »

we dont have journalists in this country mate.

we have media correspondants and opinion writers so be prepared to jettison your principles for what your editor wants.

its sad but its true that your main funtion will be to flog advertising for whatever paper or magazine you end up on and that may involve compromising yourself big time.

good luck.

What a load of ignorant bollox.

See my signature: that's the internet for ya.

santosubito

beks101 wrote: »

Hi OP,

Just a few things I wish I had been told before I went on to study journalism...


It is ALL ABOUT the practical experience. That's what qualifies you to future employers, that's what matters on the CV, that's what teaches you how to be a journalist. Now saying this, my BA in Journo is what got me in the door, but had I known how much more two years working in a newsroom would teach me than the four years I studied theories about newsrooms, I would have made a concerted effort to get far more hands-on experience than I did.
Start pitching to local papers, volunteering in your local radio station and when you start college, throw yourself into the student newspaper.


Go into it with an open mind. I went in with a passion for writing, convinced that I'd end up in print and have some sort of book deal by this stage (ever the romantic )...Never thought for a second about broadcast...which is where I now work and I love it.

Someone else mentioned it's 80% hard work, 20% luck....I would say 90/10. Work your balls off and you'll go far. Do everything and anything, from making tea to writing headlines, autocue, guest greeting...take anything you can get. Being known as a hard worker will get you places.


Best of luck!

That's much more like it. A much more realistic view of journalism and what it takes to do well.

santosubito

PaulieC wrote: »

I know it's late to give advice seeing as you've prob filled in the relevant forms etc. but believe me - I am a keen enough writer - loved English, writing essays,short stories and so on...I listened to people telling me I should go into IT due to the fact that there's well paid jobs to be got out of it, I was only just turned 17 doing the leaving and I seriously regret listening to other people, I'm in a course that I don't like but I've put in 3 years and feel I've to stick it out at this stage - do what you enjoy and work at it to be the best you can put happiness first not money IMO Best of luck with it anyway!

Yes, I think anyone would make a mistake if they thought there was big money for most journalists. Some of us are extremely well paid, others (most) aren't.
My first job was £100 a week back in 1994. Pretty crap really, but I loved the work.

jdivision

santosubito wrote: »

My first job was £100 a week back in 1994. Pretty crap really, but I loved the work.

Yeah, people forget about that. I remember being a freelance in 2003 and getting paid E70 for 35 hours work one week even though i was based in the office, they had a pile of stuff that week so a bunch of pieces I'd written didn't make the cut and got no pay for it. Also had a situation where I was being paid for four shifts, but was then expected to work for free on the Friday for news.

PixyChick

I was hoping to enter a career in journalism but this is just depressing!

Is blogging the way to go now and get affiliated to the likes of irishelection and more prominent blogging aggregates?

santosubito

PixyChick wrote: »

I was hoping to enter a career in journalism but this is just depressing!

Is blogging the way to go now and get affiliated to the likes of irishelection and more prominent blogging aggregates?

Well it all depends, really.
If the journalism you want to do is giving your opinion on something (whatever that may be worth), the blog away.
But iof you want to be a reporter and actually learn the nuts and bolts of reportage stay away form the internet. You'll learn nothing, I mean nothing, about being a reporter writing for any blog.
Join a weekly, if you can.

Pen1987

santosubito wrote: »

Well it all depends, really.
If the journalism you want to do is giving your opinion on something (whatever that may be worth), the blog away.
But iof you want to be a reporter and actually learn the nuts and bolts of reportage stay away form the internet. You'll learn nothing, I mean nothing, about being a reporter writing for any blog.
Join a weekly, if you can.

*Sigh*

Blogging is what you make it. You can report as you would in a newspaper, or write opinion, or do whatever you want. If you want to write straight reporting there is nobody going to stop you.

You'll learn more writing for a blog than you will waiting for a job to pop up, let's be honest, there are no jobs going in weeklies - not in Dublin anyway - freelance gigs have crashed through the floor and look set to continue falling and staff jobs anywhere else are near impossible to find. You'll learn more being proactive writing for a blog/website than you will sitting on your hole.

You're taking blogs to be ranting opinion 100% of the time. It's not.

The blog I co-edit was first to announce Joe Higgins won his euro seat, first to say Maurice Ahern had lost his local seat, first to say Declan Ganley was accusing people of losing ballots - and that was all in the one day, election count-day. Elsewhere, we were first to break the news that Jimmy Devins was dropping the whip, first news site to publish a quote from Christy Burke after he left Sinn Féin (before even RTE.ie, even though he was being interviewed on Liveline) - and they're just in the last year. We were also the first place to report Micheal McDowell was resigning from public life - first by a few hours on that one. Is that reporting or blogging?

Additionally, it ups your profile. A blog post I wrote resulted in me being offered internships with Prime Time in RTÉ and The Irish Times, I went to Ballyfermot and believe I'm the first person from there to be offered an internship with Prime Time - because of blogging. So it was hardly a bad move to start blogging, was it?

kpbdublin

Pen1987 makes some good points. Blogging can be an effective form of journalism, and the good bloggers break stories.
I would advise anyone interested in journalism to get their foot in the door of a newspaper. Reporters used to start by working casual shifts, but the papers have stopped this, because of legal constraints. I hate to say it, but many young journalists come in and work as Interns for nothing for a time.
This is open to abuse, and an employer could keep them stringing along, but it is also a useful way of getting experience.
The other option is to submit features as an outside contributor.

santosubito

Pen1987 wrote: »

*Sigh*

Blogging is what you make it. You can report as you would in a newspaper, or write opinion, or do whatever you want. If you want to write straight reporting there is nobody going to stop you.

You'll learn more writing for a blog than you will waiting for a job to pop up, let's be honest, there are no jobs going in weeklies - not in Dublin anyway - freelance gigs have crashed through the floor and look set to continue falling and staff jobs anywhere else are near impossible to find. You'll learn more being proactive writing for a blog/website than you will sitting on your hole.

You're taking blogs to be ranting opinion 100% of the time. It's not.

The blog I co-edit was first to announce Joe Higgins won his euro seat, first to say Maurice Ahern had lost his local seat, first to say Declan Ganley was accusing people of losing ballots - and that was all in the one day, election count-day. Elsewhere, we were first to break the news that Jimmy Devins was dropping the whip, first news site to publish a quote from Christy Burke after he left Sinn Féin (before even RTE.ie, even though he was being interviewed on Liveline) - and they're just in the last year. We were also the first place to report Micheal McDowell was resigning from public life - first by a few hours on that one. Is that reporting or blogging?

Additionally, it ups your profile. A blog post I wrote resulted in me being offered internships with Prime Time in RTÉ and The Irish Times, I went to Ballyfermot and believe I'm the first person from there to be offered an internship with Prime Time - because of blogging. So it was hardly a bad move to start blogging, was it?

Ok, Mark: what stories have you broken on irishelection.com? I like your blog, I read it, but what stories have you broken on it? How many of those stories you mention (and I would question whether irishelection.com is a blog, I would consider it an aggregator site rather than a blog) were sent in by contributors, or were dug up by you as a reporter, or anyone else?
You cannot report on a blog as you would in a newspaper. And this is why: who is there to edit your copy? Who is there to teach you, to tell you a better way of doing things, of getting a better angle? Who is going to tel you your copy is bad, and this is how you can improve it? Who is going to teach you the nuts and bolts of being a reporter?
And here's the thing: you say you co-edit election.ie, and I don't mean this is any disrespectful way, but what experience do you bring to bear for that role? You are just out of college, so I don't think you have the experience to co-edit anything.

And as a matter of interest, what Irish stories have been broken on blogs? Apart from the ones you mention (which strike me as election.ie being first to publish something that everyone else was going to get a few minutes later), what other stories has anyone broken on an irish blogsite.
I blog myself and I don't see much quality in Irish blogs, I have to say.

Pen1987

santosubito wrote: »

Ok, Mark: what stories have you broken on irishelection.com? I like your blog, I read it, but what stories have you broken on it? How many of those stories you mention (and I would question whether irishelection.com is a blog, I would consider it an aggregator site rather than a blog) were sent in by contributors, or were dug up by you as a reporter, or anyone else?

And as a matter of interest, what Irish stories have been broken on blogs? Apart from the ones you mention (which strike me as election.ie being first to publish something that everyone else was going to get a few minutes later), what other stories has anyone broken on an irish blogsite.
I blog myself and I don't see much quality in Irish blogs, I have to say.

We get about two pieces a week by email from people asking to have them published. Whether they're published or not is taken on a case by case basis.

Now, before I contradict it, I'll say this...

Fine Gael's breaking of copyright laws by stealing the BBC's intellectual property was broken earlier this year on an Irish blog, Irish Times followed up, and a few tabs I believe. The story about Sarah Palin having refueled at Shannon but claiming to have "visited" Ireland started with an Irish blogger. Similarly with the music side of the Michael Lynn story. Additionally, I reported - yes reported, in this instance - on MiCandidate's lies to local and European election candidates about having contracts with The Irish Times RTÉ and The Guardian. This was a large part of the reason RTÉ didn't sign up with the company, and also had repercussions for the company from Irish Times Ltd. The Sunday Times followed it up, I was told.

I'm not claiming they're big stories - though the Palin one was - I saying they're stories.

Aside: Regards breaking stories, how often do Irish newspapers break stories? Once a week? Maybe. With all their resources...

You cannot report on a blog as you would in a newspaper. And this is why: who is there to edit your copy? Who is there to teach you, to tell you a better way of doing things, of getting a better angle? Who is going to tel you your copy is bad, and this is how you can improve it? Who is going to teach you the nuts and bolts of being a reporter?
And here's the thing: you say you co-edit election.ie, and I don't mean this is any disrespectful way, but what experience do you bring to bear for that role? You are just out of college, so I don't think you have the experience to co-edit anything.

I didn't say blogging is the optimum. I said students are better off blogging, writing, looking for something to write on, writing reports and blogging them, just doing something half-journalism-related, than sitting on their hole all day. Quote: "You'll learn more writing for a blog than you will waiting for a job to pop up, let's be honest, there are no jobs going in weeklies - not in Dublin anyway - freelance gigs have crashed through the floor and look set to continue falling and staff jobs anywhere else are near impossible to find. You'll learn more being proactive writing for a blog/website than you will sitting on your hole".

Did I say anywhere anyone would be better writing for a blog than writing for their local weekly? No. Did I say anywhere students would be better writing a blog for three months than getting an internship over a summer? No. Did I say blogs were the best thing since sliced bread? No. I said it's better than the alternative - doing nothing or getting pitches rejected all day. I'm saying you'll learn more by doing something often (no matter how badly) than waiting for a job to open in local weekly. If the option for a student is to a write a blog post for an hour every day or spend the time watching re-runs of Jeremy Kyle on ITV while waiting for an opening on the local weekly, write a blog. Even better, think of something interesting to write on, make some calls, write the article, blog it and see can you sell it, building the contacts book in the process.

You cannot report on a blog as you would in a newspaper. And this is why: who is there to edit your copy?

Who edits my copy anyway? I'm a freelance, editors don't sit there with me after I file and talk me through the adjustments they're going to make and tell me why, they just do it. Most learn almost nothing regards writing copy when filing as a freelance.

Aside: If I get something wrong I'll know all about it, that comments form isn't for fawning compliments, when I write I've learned to make damn sure it's right.

Who is there to teach you, to tell you a better way of doing things, of getting a better angle?

Who teaches the average graduate freelance these days? We don't walk into jobs, they're few and very far between, even in the freesheets. There are no old-school reporters about to take us kids under their wing and teach us the nuts and bolts, there is no option but to sink or swim. How does blogging help this? It gives me a reason to make calls, something to work on, a reason to stay up to date with the news and attend press events (yes, I do go). It keeps me thinking like a journalist and writing often. The blog I write for happens to have some prominence also, so it makes my by-line a little more recognisable - which doesn't hurt when calling newsdesks. Is any of this going to be detrimental to my career?

Who is going to teach you the nuts and bolts of being a reporter?

Again, who is going to teach me otherwise? There are no jobs out there. Freelancing is getting harder and harder, especially for those still trying to build a recognition.

However, I will say: I attend press events when I can: I go to election counts and I blog from there. I hang around the press room and watch political reporters like Deaglan DeBreadan, Harry McGee, Fionnan Sheehan, Conor Ryan, Marie Halloran and the few dozen others who cover politics at national level and see how they work. They teach me by osmosis. In fact, now that one or two know my face I can give them a bell and ask for advice on a story, there's not too many students who can call a pol corr from a national paper and ask him how they'd approach something, is there? I got those contacts from working on the blog - and that doesn't include the people who send emails or call me instead of commenting, there are contacts in there too.

Anyway, how else would I learn? Is there a local out there crying for someone straight out of college and addicted to politics? If so, send them my way, but we both know there isn't.

Here's the thing, though - when there is one, I know I'll have a better writing routine, be more a experienced reporter with a better contacts book and more recognisable by-line than anyone of comparable experience because I'll have been working my arse off in this business for a few years instead of sitting on my hole. Like I said, it's about being proactive and improving, learning off your own back. It's not about bringing down the Government.

you say you co-edit election.ie, and I don't mean this is any disrespectful way, but what experience do you bring to bear for that role? You are just out of college, so I don't think you have the experience to co-edit anything.

I didn't mention I edited "election.ie", I didn't mention what blog I edit at all actually, though you said you're an Irishelection.com reader and maybe recognised my name in the sidebar here and by-line from there - but yes, as you stated correctly earlier in your post - I co-edit Irishelection.com.

Editing a blog is very different to editing in the newspaper sense. I co-ordinate coverage for events we cover mainly... that means assigning writers to certain areas of An Bord Snip, co-ordinating coverage of the local and Euro election count (16 writers, all across the country) ensuring content doesn't duplicate, ensuring we have writers available with expertise in certain areas (Lisbon/Europe/whatever), making sure there's nothing libelous... like I said, it's different (and not comparable) to a news editor's job. It's far more to do with organising than assigning stories.

PS

I've no idea where you're getting the idea of Irishelection.com being aggregator from by the way, Drudge is an aggregator, Irish Election is a blog/discussion site.

rediguana

Interesting thread.

Regarding blogs - I am someone who has never studied journalism, though I have always had an interest in writing. I started a blog in February of this year. My goal was to use it as a springboard for getting "proper" writing work.

I have had some success of late (have secured an ongoing column in a mag, with other pieces to be published in a trade mag and national paper soon, with hopefully other work to follow) but it took a lot of groundwork.

And I think it's very much a case of "To Him That Hath, Shall be Given". Once you get a a gig or two, it becomes easier to get more.

There are a lot of rubbish blogs, no doubt; but they are what you make them too, as someone above pointed out. For anyone writing a blog, the key thing (assuming you've something going for it in terms of quality) is to draw as much traffic as possible. I usually do this by plugging a new post on Twitter, Facebook, LouderVoice and (if I can get away with it!) here on Boards.

As well as effort, luck definitely plays a part. My first ever writing work resulted from a chance late-night conversation with a brother-of-a-friend who gave me the contact details of someone I would never have come across otherwise. And my upcoming national paper piece is a result of ending up sitting beside an editor at a wine tasting I went to during the summer.

Good luck is certainly preferable to bad.

Anyway, I thought I could make faster progress in journalism if I did a Masters in it. I applied for a couple this year but then, when I did the sums, I had to decide against.