Why is Jones favourite to start at out-half over O'Gara?

Jam-Fly

Don't want this to turn into another O'Gara bashing/defending thread, so, trying to be as objective as possible, why is Jones favourite to start over O'Gara?

IMO, O'Gara has played much better in South Africa so far. They are both very similar players obviously, and I feel O'Gara's form and current confidence from the tee should give him the nod ahead of Jones.

Overall, I just don't see why Jones seems to be the far and away favourite to start while ROG is battling Hook for a place on the bench. Thoughts?

Stev_o

We was favourite their 50/50 now. Honestly who cares? At this stage we should support whoever gets selected instead of crying and moaning who wasn't.

themont85

Because he was excellent against the worst team they played, the Golden Lions.

premierstone

If we are to believe McGeechan that it was 50/50 before the tour started then O'Gara has to start imo, but I've always had the feeling he prefers the phillips-jones combination, but we will see its a tough call but should be interesting

Riskymove

I have not seen today's game but following reports thought O'Gara did well....its funny that a review of today's game describes O'Gara as "not at his best" with kicking out of his hand

everything is subjective I guess


A lot of people seem to have more confidence in Jones to get the vital kicks though O'Gara has seemed to do well here thus far.

partyguinness

The thing is..I always feel that ROG is just one pass away from disaster he reminds me of John O'Shea in that sense...and of course his defence.

Stev_o

partyguinness wrote: »

The thing is..I always feel that ROG is just one pass away from disaster he reminds me of John O'Shea in that sense...and of course his defence.

His defence has be superb this tour hasn't missed one tackle. His passing has been a bit hit or miss now and again though.

buck65

Jones is considered the better tackler, he is a massive 19lbs heavier than O Gara so that makes sense. Jones 8/10 ROG 6/10
Both are excellent place kickers and have nailed most of their big kicks in the past. Both can take their drop goals too.Jones 9/10 ROG 9/10
O Gara to me is a better option with the boot i.e putting the ball into the corner or a cheeky grubber kick against a blitz defence. Jones 7/10 ROG 9/10
Jones with his power can probaly break the line a bit better but neither have breakaway pace. Jones 7/10 ROG 6/10
Both offer a decent passing game and keep their backs moving. I like O Gara's distribution a bit better these days, gone is the obvious skip pass to O Driscoll and he can certainly mix it up with loop passes etc. these days. Jones 8/10 ROG 8/10
Overall Jones 39/50 - O Gara 38/50
A close call betwen the 2 , they are so similar that only one of them may make the 22 on Saturday as Hook offers what the boys lack i.e pace.

partyguinness

Stev_o wrote: »

His defence has be superb this tour hasn't missed one tackle. His passing has been a bit hit or miss now and again though.

But to be fair, have the games to date really been of the standard of the Springboks? I dont think so and I release that he can only play whats infront of him.

Look at the Wales game in the 6 Nations? Wales cut through and flattened him several times..now think what SA will do to him?:eek:...

Compare the stats and size of the packs...its scary.

I hope I am wrong but I would be watching it through my fingers.

premierstone

buck65 wrote: »

Jones is considered the better tackler, he is a massive 19lbs heavier than O Gara so that makes sense. Jones 8/10 ROG 6/10
Both are excellent place kickers and have nailed most of their big kicks in the past. Both can take their drop goals too.Jones 9/10 ROG 9/10
O Gara to me is a better option with the boot i.e putting the ball into the corner or a cheeky grubber kick against a blitz defence. Jones 7/10 ROG 9/10
Jones with his power can probaly break the line a bit better but neither have breakaway pace. Jones 7/10 ROG 6/10
Both offer a decent passing game and keep their backs moving. I like O Gara's distribution a bit better these days, gone is the obvious skip pass to O Driscoll and he can certainly mix it up with loop passes etc. these days. Jones 8/10 ROG 8/10
Overall Jones 39/50 - O Gara 38/50
A close call betwen the 2 , they are so similar that only one of them may make the 22 on Saturday as Hook offers what the boys lack i.e pace.

Pretty much agree with that breakdown and the conclusion to be made from it imo is that you go with the guy in form, right now thats ROG.

Also I think whoever doesnt get the nod will be in the 22 ahead of Hook, considering Hook wasnt even in the original squad I dont think McGeechan is too worried about having two similar OH's in the 22

Jam-Fly

buck65 wrote: »

Jones is considered the better tackler, he is a massive 19lbs heavier than O Gara so that makes sense. Jones 8/10 ROG 6/10
Both are excellent place kickers and have nailed most of their big kicks in the past. Both can take their drop goals too.Jones 9/10 ROG 9/10
O Gara to me is a better option with the boot i.e putting the ball into the corner or a cheeky grubber kick against a blitz defence. Jones 7/10 ROG 9/10
Jones with his power can probaly break the line a bit better but neither have breakaway pace. Jones 7/10 ROG 6/10
Both offer a decent passing game and keep their backs moving. I like O Gara's distribution a bit better these days, gone is the obvious skip pass to O Driscoll and he can certainly mix it up with loop passes etc. these days. Jones 8/10 ROG 8/10
Overall Jones 39/50 - O Gara 38/50
A close call betwen the 2 , they are so similar that only one of them may make the 22 on Saturday as Hook offers what the boys lack i.e pace.

Yeah, I think they are totally similar fly-halfs, their strengths are the same and their weaknesses are the same. For this reason, it does make sense for only one of them to start with James Hook on the bench to offer something difference.

However, according to your ratings, the only thing that really seperates them is Jones with a 7 and O'Gara with a 6 for pace. Both are not running out-halves so the fact Jones is slightly faster than O'Gara makes little difference imo - I don't think the Lions will play that kind of game.



I think when it comes down to it, this test series is going to be close. In close games, I think O'Gara is best man to have at 10. His decision making and kicking ability are second to none. Perhaps it is because of all the times I've seen O'Gara bail out Ireland and Munster, but when it comes down to the super tight games, O'Gara always seems to be there to win them.


The Phillips-Jones partnership is the best reason I can see to start with Jones. Prior to the tour began, I was hoping for Blair to start at 9. Had Blair performed better and put himself in a position to start at 9 for the tests, then I think O'Gara would definitely get the nod. As it is, with Phillips looking certain to start, I think it is reasonable to say his partnership with the scrum-half is definitely an advantage for Jones.

buck65

premierstone wrote: »

Pretty much agree with that breakdown and the conclusion to be made from it imo is that you go with the guy in form, right now thats ROG.

Also I think whoever doesnt get the nod will be in the 22 ahead of Hook, considering Hook wasnt even in the original squad I dont think McGeechan is too worried about having two similar OH's in the 22

Really? I'd prefer to see Hook coming on to offer a bit of variety.
Both Jones and O Gara will probably start a test each with Hook coming on at some stage

buck65

Jam-Fly wrote: »

However, according to your ratings, the only thing that really seperates them is Jones with a 7 and O'Gara with a 6 for pace. Both are not running out-halves so the fact Jones is slightly faster than O'Gara makes little difference imo - I don't think the Lions will play that kind of game.

Well actually the tackling to me is the biggest difference and the reason Jones may get the nod.

partyguinness

As said above, if Hook is indeed on the bench...it would be a very strange call considering he wasnt picked on the original panel.

I think Hook is too flaky to be a a test fly half for this game.

Marko_Man

O'Gara will start the first test match but wont finish the tour as the number 1

mink_man

rog stands too deep to break the line too!

anonymous_joe

I'd guess it's because in the first test we all expect to see the Springboks backrow, especially Pierre Spies aka Andy Powell but a bit bigger targeting the 10 channel all day. With Stephen Jones they'll get less mileage out of that area.

Also, he's more used to playing with Mike Philips than O'Gara is.

tommy57

it depends what way the lions play. if they plan on taking south africa up front then o gara will play. if they plan on using the backs alot more then jones will play.

Webbs

Jones just offers that little more variety in his play and while standing flatter he gives more for the opposition to think about.
The defensive differences whether real or not is something the Boks would try to exploit with ROG playing.
I would also prefer to have Jones there as I think he has a far better temperament than ROG, who if the opposition get to him tends to go awol in his head. Again something the Boks will target

rebel girl 15

thought ROG did well today after coming on. I'd like to see him get the nod.
I agree with tommy, it'll depend on what game plan the Lions have.

Micky Dolenz

There isn't a lot between them, Jones is a better and heavier tackler, while ROG is a better place kicker. Would be confident with either one at 10.

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

His defence has be superb this tour hasn't missed one tackle.

Actually he has I remember watching a game in Sydney and an Ozzie lad beside me saying 'Typical O'Gara' as ROG missed a soft tackle and the team very nearly went over the line from it and I myself recall another seperate occasion where ROG missed an easy tackle during the tour.

NickNolte

It's a close call but I suspect that Jones will get the nod... just. Either way, they're both suitable to start the first test. I suspect Roberts/BOD will get better service from Jones that O'Gara. It really depends on what type of game the Lions decide to play on Saturday.

dan719

Size=everything wrote: »

Actually he has I remember watching a game in Sydney and an Ozzie lad beside me saying 'Typical O'Gara' as ROG missed a soft tackle and the team very nearly went over the line from it and I myself recall another seperate occasion where ROG missed an easy tackle during the tour.

You know I saw O'Driscoll miss a tackle against the Golden Lions. Obviously he should be dropped. :rolleyes:

O'Gara's defense has been equal to that of Jones this tour. It is a very close call.

2040

O'Gara pretty much made a try-saving tackle today against a big forward, and Stuart Barnes says "Great tackle by O'Gara." I couldn't believe my ears.

Let's not forget ROG did fairly well against the Boks the last two times Ireland played them. And i know, that try shouldn't have been allowed, but still.

yoursaviour1989

Jones has been gettin the backline moving better imo, however can see where the calls for ROG's boot are comin from..regardless of who is picked i think Hook should make the bench as he can change the game and offers versatility
I'd go with Jones and Hook