Would you perform an abortion?

tallaght01

So, would ya? Or be involved in one? As a healthcare worker or student, would you be involved in abortion?

I was talking to a colleague today about this. I said I wouldn't. But his stance was that we are not here to judge people for their choices, and we have to do what the job entails.

I see his point. But I wouldn't do a specialty in the first place where I'd have to do them.

I'm pretty safe in paeds and public health. But what's the general consensus? Would you be involved in one? I was at one as a student, and hated it.

I have referred people to docs who can sort an abortion. I have never once let a patient know that I'm against the practice.

Just interested in others thoughts. Personally, I don't think my job takes preference over my principles.

Might be an issue for, say, people on GP training programmes with a compulsory O+G placement? Or the UK now has lots of compulsory SHO jobs that people don't choose to do.

metrovelvet

Its against the hippocratic oath to perform them but I dont believe doctors have to take that oath anymore, is that right?

I'd be curious to know if your colleage would perform a late late one. In the US they are legal to term but the crunch is finding one who would do one that late.

Carsinian Thau

In theory: If the life of the mother was in danger and it was necessary to perform an abortion to save her. Then, yes.

In practice: I think that that justification might ring a little hollow and even if I could, I don't think it'd be that easy for me.

tallaght01

yea, i should have pointed out that I meant elective abortions, as opposed to emergency/mum is going to die abortions.

With regard to the hippocratic oath, we took a modified oath, with removal of the bit about abortions.

Mad_Max

tallaght01 wrote: »

yea, i should have pointed out that I meant elective abortions, as opposed to emergency/mum is going to die abortions.

Would someone who had been raped and electing be different for you?

btw i've no real feeling about this subject either way, just i've seen this as a major point in a lot of american debates, wondering what you're feeling would be with something like that.

tallaght01

Mad_Max wrote: »

Would someone who had been raped and electing be different for you?

btw i've no real feeling about this subject either way, just i've seen this as a major point in a lot of american debates, wondering what you're feeling would be with something like that.

Well, I think the issue is that I wouldn't perform one, as I see it as killing a baby. So, I wouldn't do any elective abortion. The only time I would do one would be in an emergency where the mum was about to die, and I was the only doc there.

The situation of rape would be the same as any other elective abortion for me. I'd have no part in doing it. But I'd refer the patient onto someone who would. Just like I'd refer a 25 year old who said she wanted an abortion because it would harm her career.

DrIndy

My ethics stop at that - but I would provide information and have many times supplied the morning after pill to women.

I think this is a very grey area and medical ethics are not black and white - we need to consider the autonomy of the woman and yet be concious of acting in beneficence towards the unborn foetus and protecting them.

sam34

no, i absolutely wouldnt.

but to echo others, i would provide information to someone requesting it. i think as doctors we have to do that much.

ZorbaTehZ

For various reasons, I am pro-choice and would be willing to perform elective abortions until term, if I were to end up in such a situation (although I must admit it's quite unlikely, unless perhaps as a student)

Mad_Max

tallaght01 wrote: »

The situation of rape would be the same as any other elective abortion for me. I'd have no part in doing it. But I'd refer the patient onto someone who would. Just like I'd refer a 25 year old who said she wanted an abortion because it would harm her career.

Its interesting to get a doctors perspective on this. In general I only hear news readers and 'commentators' on it and (especially when america's concerned) its mostly politically biased as opposed to an ethical view-point.

RobFowl

I've changed my mind over this since I qualified. Was very anti abortion aged 23 ! Never was in the situation but would have refused to take part while an obs/gynae SHO. I know there was a huge issue in the UK at the time with Irish catholic regs who refused to do abortion lists, their colleagues thought they were just shafting them wiht extra workloads !
Any way I am still anti abortion but if I was 23 and my girlfiend was pregnant I know my opinion would be severely challanged.
As a GP I basically feel if my patients have made the descision to have one then I will give them the details of reputable (BPAS and Marie Stopes) clinic'c in the UK and give them an information letter (not a referral thanks to Prof Casey!).
I also undertake to perform any follow up care and do not try to talk patients out of their choice as long as I feel they have made an informed one.
It's a moral cheat I know but .................................

bleg

yup i'd have no bother being involved in one.

drzhivago

tallaght01 wrote: »

So, would ya? Or be involved in one? As a healthcare worker or student, would you be involved in abortion?

Interesting thread I wonder how long it will be before its hijacked

Wouldnt be involved myself and thankfully the job doesnt lend itself to that ever happening

tallaght01 wrote: »

I was talking to a colleague today about this. I said I wouldn't. But his stance was that we are not here to judge people for their choices, and we have to do what the job entails.

Maybe the reason some of us have chosen the careers within medicine we did although in Ireland we are very protected never really have to make this choice, choice about inofmration and referral is as far as it goes

Unsure how I would have approached this if I was an obs person in UK.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm pretty safe in paeds and public health. But what's the general consensus? Would you be involved in one? I was at one as a student, and hated it.

Never seen one and no interest either, an english teacher I had in secondary school described his experiences as a porter in an abortion clinic in UK and that really turned me off the concept

I have to say that I felt as a male that I shouldnt have had a vote in this at referendum time as I really will never be in that psychological place that a young girl is when they feel that this is their only way out.I will never understand what they feel or the effect the decision they make will have on them forever. I thought it was unfair that the referendum could be swung either way by those whom it will never really affect.

I have referred people to docs who can sort an abortion. I have never once let a patient know that I'm against the practice.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Might be an issue for, say, people on GP training programmes with a compulsory O+G placement? Or the UK now has lots of compulsory SHO jobs that people don't choose to do.

providing information is one thing, actually doing it myself or being an assistant no way

amjon

Mad_Max wrote: »

Would someone who had been raped and electing be different for you?

Its still a human being irrespective of the horrific circumstances that led to its conception so no abortion.

tallaght01

amjon wrote: »

Mad_Max wrote: »

Would someone who had been raped and electing be different for you?

Its still a human being irrespective of the horrific circumstances that led to its conception so no abortion.

I'm really really not wanting to get into a rights/wrongs of abortion here. Fair enough to say why you wouldn't do one. But I'm not looking for lots of opinions on whether we think other people should do them. Just your own individual views on whether you,as a health professional or potential health professional would do one, and your reasons, if you want to share them.

flerb22

elective abortions are in my opinion a disgrace - you are effectively killing an unborn baby.

womans right to choose? a load of crap - they are choosing to kill an unborn baby. if they used effective contraception then they wouldnt be pregnant, be it the pill, condoms etc

I find the position of the catholic church ridiculous aswell for the same reasons. contraception is fine, abortions are not fine.



tldnr: i will never perform an abortion.

todolist

No,Under no circumstances.Life is precious.

cuckoo

This thread has me (a non-healthcare person) wondering - if abortion were to be legalised in Ireland where would the doctors and staff needed be found to carry them out?

Doctors and nurses training in Ireland aren't seeing them in hospitals currently, so would trained staff have to be imported? Given the catholic ethos of so many hospitals - would they even be carried out in hospitals, or would there need to be special clinics set up?

Carsinian Thau

Now that the emergency treatment one has been discounted:

No, I would never be involved in an elective abortion. I would just have two many problems with it.
I would, however, refer patients that need it to someplace that they could get it done. I'd have to justify it by saying that it's going to happen anyway and the referral is the only way to ensure that the patient doesn't go through extra suffering.

Carsinian Thau

flerb22 wrote: »

womans right to choose? a load of crap - they are choosing to kill an unborn baby. if they used effective contraception then they wouldnt be pregnant, be it the pill, condoms etc

Contraception doesn't always work.

There are a lot of factors that could drive a woman towards an abortion.

I would hope that you wouldn't let your judgemental attitude be seen by your patients.

DrIndy

Lets keep this thread simply and only about a healthcare professional being involved in the chain of events which results in an abortion and if they personally would do it.

This thread will not become a humanistic debate on the moral ethics on the concept of abortion - merely the ethical rationale you feel about it.

Red Sleeping Beauty

How big a part does religion play in the ethics of those who wouldn't perform an abortion ?

flerb22

i do not agree with this stance anymore. As a matter of fact I find it small minded.

What I truely believe is that everyone and anyone has a right to do whatever they want concerning their own life. I have become very libertarian in mnay ways. why legislate about many social or ethical issues when it is actually the morals and motives of a person that should decide what they should do with their lives?

If you force your opinions down the throats of unwilling people, they are just going to throw them up all over your face.

Leave people to do what they want.


I am sorry for any offence that my childish response may have caused.

chanste

Every case is different, and we can't foresee the magnitude of stress a decision like this will place on a woman who is considering it, by comparing to some generic set of circumstances that we have in our own minds.

I think any involvement in an abortion (even the referring part) would upset me, but our job isn't to preach and doing so would in my opinion be a losing battle costing you the trust of a patient who you may be in a position to help when they need it most.

I think Tallaght01 said before on some other thread (about doctors salaries or something) that its amazing how many people have strong opinions on something with which they have had no experience of... I think a similar sentiment is appropriate to the abortion debate.

johnthemull

tallaght01 wrote: »

So, would ya? Or be involved in one? As a healthcare worker or student, would you be involved in abortion?

I was talking to a colleague today about this. I said I wouldn't. But his stance was that we are not here to judge people for their choices, and we have to do what the job entails.

I see his point. But I wouldn't do a specialty in the first place where I'd have to do them.

I'm pretty safe in paeds and public health. But what's the general consensus? Would you be involved in one? I was at one as a student, and hated it.

I have referred people to docs who can sort an abortion. I have never once let a patient know that I'm against the practice.

Just interested in others thoughts. Personally, I don't think my job takes preference over my principles.

Might be an issue for, say, people on GP training programmes with a compulsory O+G placement? Or the UK now has lots of compulsory SHO jobs that people don't choose to do.

YES I WOULD

Rodin

No I would not perform an elective abortion.

I am, however ok with the morning after pill

Sid_Justice

How many non-elective abortions are carried out in Ireland? In the case of a woman who is at serious risk of death due to continued pregnancy? I can't find any information on the topic.

Chiparus

What is the difference between the morning after pill and say ru- 486 , to me the MAP prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted, while ru486 causes fertilised egg to be dislodged.

There are huge amounts of MAP prescribed in Ireland.

JuliusCaesar

During one of the abortion/right to choose referendi in the 90s, the Psychological Society of Ireland put together a paper (which I can't find now...prob out of date anyway) detailing the impact on women of having to carry a pregnancy to term of a foetus/child who they did not want, and also the impact of having an unwanted child. (Not everyone is in a position that they can give a child up for adoption, or the woman has a huge conflict about keep vs give up) Anyway, due to the research the PSI said that on balance they were in favour of a right to chose.

Just thought I'd put that in as a psychologist.

Sid_Justice

Chiparus wrote: »

What is the difference between the morning after pill and say ru- 486 , to me the MAP prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted, while ru486 causes fertilised egg to be dislodged.

There are huge amounts of MAP prescribed in Ireland.

the map is only effective within a few days of intercourse (5 max I think). While it will prevent implantation of a fertilised egg it will not affect an implanted zygote. Ru-486 a true abortifacient causing the implanted embryo, at various stages of development to be expelled by uterine contractions (and other abortive mechanisms).

So biological and pharmacological differences. The ethical difference relies on the principle that pregnancy begins at implantation and the map acts prior to this.

rbrbrb

Wouldn't do one. I have no problem with people getting them as long as it's early in the pregnancy but definitely wouldn't perform one. I wouldn't want to have to think about it.