[Article] Hybrid 'rail bus' proposal for Limerick Junction service

IIMII

Irish Times, Monday, June 15, 2009





IRISH RAIL is considering replacing the Waterford to Limerick Junction services with a “rail bus” – a hybrid vehicle which can run on road and rail.
The vehicle, which has double sets of wheels, is one of a number of cost-cutting options on the route which has passenger traffic of only 54,000 people a year.
The rail bus, similar to an ordinary mini bus, is able to drive on either railways or roads and Irish Rail believes its capacity of about 20 seats would meet demand.
Rail bus operations around the world traditionally allow high-cost signalling to be removed from the line, and a rail-mounted vehicle with the operational characteristics of a bus can then run instead. The rail bus offers significant fuel savings.
The Irish Times understands Irish Rail is studying reports on the introduction of such vehicles on little-used routes in Japan
It is also understood that the company is looking at a second tram-like rail carriage which is employed on some low-usage lines in the UK.
The Waterford to Limerick route suffered a near catastrophic setback in 2003 when a cement train derailed on the Cahir viaduct. Twelve wagons fell through the bridge into the River Suir.
The route was reopened after a €3 million repair, after which services between Limerick and Waterford were increased to four per day in each direction. Passenger numbers remained minuscule.
A source said: “The future of the line has been the focus of speculation in years past. But the current cost-reduction programme is very much on achieving savings while maintaining services, and the company is examining some innovative bus-rail type operations suitable for this route.”
Irish Rail estimates a rail bus system on the route could cut costs by 50 per cent.

DWCommuter

Their version of closing the line without actually closing the line. Gangsters.

mysterious

if they upgraded the line it would attract numbers but since these trains go at walking speed dont see why people would use it.

L1011

Just use a 2750 or buy the NIR railbus off whatever preserved railway owns it and be done with it - this is just a distraction by which they'll try to close the line when the hybrid breaks down...

Sponge Bob

MYOB wrote: »

this is just a distraction by which they'll try to close the line when the hybrid breaks down...

And the fella who can fix it is based in Dundalk and it always breaks down when he on holidays :cool:

Zoney

Not the worst public transport story this week by a long shot. A piece of nonsense all the same.

Sponge Bob

This thing is still under development by Toyota and Hino. A year ago article

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/half-bus-half-t/

Toyota and its truck-making subsidiary Hino Motors have signed on with Japan Rail Hokkaido to develop the vehicles, which carry 25 people and reportedly burn one-fourth the amount of diesel fuel required by conventional buses. Japan Rail started testing them about 18 months ago, and bringing Toyota aboard could speed up development and commercialization of what may be the mass transit vehicle of the future.


Dual-mode vehicles have four rubber tires for road use and four steel wheels for the rails, and it takes less than 15 seconds to go from road to rail and back again. It drives just like a bus on the road, and a hydraulic system raises the tires and lowers the steel wheels as the driver guides the vehicle onto the tracks.

Japan Rail provides rail service for the island of Hokkaido, and about one-third of its lines carry less than 500 people. It developed the dual-mode vehicles as a means of cutting costs on those lines without reducing service. The vehicles use a Toyota microbus body and axles built by Hino. The two companies will help Japan Rail refine the technology and increase passenger capacity with an eye toward commercial production.

ODS

DWCommuter wrote: »

Their version of closing the line without actually closing the line. Gangsters.

Couldn't put it better. This line has never been marketed properly as Frank McDonald's recent "Ghost Train" article demonstrated.

"Rail bus operations around the world traditionally allow high-cost signalling to be removed from the line".

Disgraceful stuff - would obviously prevent actual proper trains from using the line - right when the WRC is getting reinstated? Madness altogether.

Who are the people who run IE - Can somebody please name the board members, preferably listing position and whether or not they were politically appointed, and if so by whom.

Finally this is why the Greens are getting slaughtered down the country - it's remarkable such a kite would even be flown. Ah sure don't worry folks, in Dublin they're the prime political pushers for the 5bn metro to the airport - despite the fact greens disagree with air travel :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

I didn't know it was the 1st April again! This is really unbelieveable crap. The old NIR railbus is seeing out its days on the Downpatrick & County Down Railway at Downpatrick and would do the job for a fraction of the price - but then it was built in Britain and it's always much better to spend money importing foreign built rubbish from the other side of the World!!!

Ireland invented the railbus why on earth would we need to import something that could be developed here and, indeed, manufactured here for export!!


CIE Board - with lots of vacancies here:

http://www.cie.ie/about_us/board_members.asp#members

Irish Rail/Iarnrod Eireann Board here:

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/annual_reports.asp

IIMII

ODS wrote: »

Couldn't put it better. This line has never been marketed properly as Frank McDonald's recent "Ghost Train" article demonstrated.

That wasn't Frank McDonald in that particular article

Judgement Day wrote: »

but then it was built in Britain and it's always much better to spend money importing foreign built rubbish from the other side of the World!!!

Well, Britain or Japan, it's still foreign. I don't know of any Irish manufacturers that would build something like this

dowlingm

While there are many ways to cut costs on a line like that, I must admit I hadn't thought of *signals* as a thing you'd worry about cutting costs on...

A "railbus" is basically just letting people think IE is being competitive on low-volume routes while continuing to hobble it by not letting them build a feeder bus network or interline with Bus Eireann on routes where the line has been lifted and is not coming back, like Limerick-Kerry or Mallow-Fermoy. It would be another "one off" when we already have such things - the aforementioned 2750s - with separate driver training, maintenance, part stores, etc.

Until the eastern platform is built at Limerick Junction (and therefore permits more connections) I think any changes to the Limerick Junction-Waterford service are highly premature, and certainly before IE is made to explain why, if as KC61 said elsewhere the line is now rated at 50mph the service is still being run at 40mph.

A further efficiency could then be gained by building a short bay (say the length of a 3 car 22K) beside the new platform. Instead of crossing the Dublin-Cork line as at present to access the western bays, trains from Waterford terminating at LJ would have their passengers alight and either wait for Cork trains on the east platform or cross to the west platform for service to Limerick and Dublin.

It would mean longer walks for the latter, but shouldn't require much more spend apart from the track and signal changes since the accessible crossing would already have been built for the east platform.

Judgement Day

IIMII wrote: »

That wasn't Frank McDonald in that particular article


Well, Britain or Japan, it's still foreign. I don't know of any Irish manufacturers that would build something like this

Well, chances are if it was built in Britain Irish ex.pats would be involved in the construction work - not much chance of that happening in South Korea or Japan. Inchicore Works could easily build such vehicles - even in its current run down state. Railbuses were built in Irish railway workshops years before Hino or other Far Eastern countries ever heard of them.

Anyway all this is nonsense as the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line might as well be closed if this is what CIE/IE propose for it, or better still its operation should be permanently removed from their control.

IIMII

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well, chances are if it was built in Britain Irish ex.pats would be involved in the construction work - not much chance of that happening in South Korea or Japan.

Hmmm, might be involved, fairly slim chance tbh.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anyway all this is nonsense as the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line might as well be closed if this is what CIE/IE propose for it

I'd say so, I wonder what the speed limit on these yokes is? Might work on the Navan Drogheda line. But there would be alot of ancillary costs

corktina

remove the signalling? How would using such a vehicle allow that?

My guess is that they would retain rail into Limerick and Waterford and use the road the rest of the way....a nonsense bit of reporting is what I suspect.

Parry People Carrier would be the UK version in service they refer to I guess...

IIMII

As a matter of interest, would the rail bus be any quicker than a bus, point to point? Is the rail route more direct?

Victor

I don't think its necessarily a bad idea. I think the trick would be to ensure that the line remains rail capable, that is the vehicles need to follow the existing rule book and not be incompatable with the use of existing trains, e.g. on the placement of buffers. I'm not certain about the whole road + rail thing.

If they could improve frequency, with the same overall capacity, i.e. two small trains instead of one big one, then hopefully usage would increase.

The signalling cost is not having to pay people to run manual signals and level crossings.

IIMII wrote: »

As a matter of interest, would the rail bus be any quicker than a bus, point to point?

Much less congestion on the railway.

Is the rail route more direct?

Quite similar actually, although being straighter, may be a few km shorter.

dowlingm

How would a railbus unmanned unsignalled LC be treated? A Yield right of way?

Victor

Roundabout?

I'm not sure, but possibly YRoW or local control traffic lights.

Of course, does the rail vehicle lose a lot of it fuel efficiency by having to slow down for such junctions?

Chris_533976

TBH I was surprised at the level of negativity towards this. Its not THAT bad an idea. Whats the point of a massive empty train when a little bus-rail might do the job?

Even if IE market the crap out of this line it's not going to get a huge number of passengers. Lets face it, not that many people want to go from Limerick Junction to Waterford, compared to other lines. Should this be a case to close the line? Yes, possibly. But this could be a medium solution to the low patronage problem?

I dunno, I'm torn. But I dont think it deserves quite the level of negativity shown on this thread.

L1011

Chris_533976 wrote: »

TBH I was surprised at the level of negativity towards this. Its not THAT bad an idea. Whats the point of a massive empty train when a little bus-rail might do the job

A 2750 class Arrow is already a little almost-bus. IE already own these.

Judgement Day

In an earlier life I travelled on an IRRS special using the NIR railbus RB3 - prior to its introduction into passenger service on the Portrush branch (1982 ?) - and can testify that it could reach its top speed of 75mph. At that speed it was like travelling in a beet truck but at least it was suitable for avoiding stone throwers (and that could be useful around Carrick-on-Suir) but such speeds would be way in excess of anything required on the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line! It could carry 53 passengers in relative comfort but no room for 1st class, dining car or Fastrack!

dowlingm

Chris, a 2750 is one carriage long - 20m or so. How is a railbus going to shape up compared with a BE air conditioned bus which virtually passes Limerick Junction's front door?

Nostradamus

An idea so old it's new.

Just close the bloody line and stop patonising it to death.

mysterious

I find this thread epic, most reasonably because its borderline lunacy.


Why would you want a bus hybrid on a railline.

Would it be better to just upgrade the line and make trains more effeicient.
If this ****e goes on, sure they either just put train on the road:rolleyes:
Its the insane news that make headlines

A bus train.
This thread means,
We will be eating donkey/horsemeat soon incase the cow dies out

Judgement Day

Nostradamus wrote: »

An idea so old it's new.

Just close the bloody line and stop patonising it to death.

Nostradamus - what is your agenda i.e. where are you coming from on this issue? I am pro-rail anti CIE/IE - you appear to be just anti-rail so why bother reading/contributing to a rail thread? Surely there must be a road building thread that you can salivate over?

PS. They have a road train at the ridiculous Clonakilty Model Railway Village in West Cork - may be CIE could investigate this option?

See: http://www.modelvillage.ie/tschu.htm

L1011

They've one of those acting as a local bus service in Kinsale too. Not only is it hideous I can't help but laugh at the poor locals actually trying to use it as such.... its website makes it out to be a tourist service, which in summer I've no doubt it is; but the timetables in the doctors surgeries and existence of schoolchild fares suggest its used as more.

Nostradamus

Judgement Day wrote: »

PS. They have a road train at the ridiculous Clonakilty Model Railway Village in West Cork

How is this ridiculous? It's a fair ground for kids. Seems pretty harmless to me.

You do realise that the 5 year olds enjoying a harmless day out at the Clonakilty Model Railway Village are far more psychologically balanced and socially grounded than a few dozen trainspotting "adults" with boners sitting in a Craven coach as it passes over Cahir viaduct while demanding social justice for Swinford?

I am delighted to see CIE try to close this line. Palerail is a beautiful thing.

invincibleirish

MYOB wrote: »

They've one of those acting as a local bus service in Kinsale too. Not only is it hideous I can't help but laugh at the poor locals actually trying to use it as such.... its website makes it out to be a tourist service, which in summer I've no doubt it is; but the timetables in the doctors surgeries and existence of schoolchild fares suggest its used as more.

Ah the roadtrain, many a time i've been stuck behind it as it weaves its way towards the bridge very, very slowly. As far as i can ascertain its funded by a developer as a condition of planning to an out of town residential development at 'the Dock'.

As you say its more then a gimmick, it appears to do a reasonable trade including the schoolkids as you mentioned. one of the terminuses for the RT is by the local secondary school. I believe a position for an extra driver was advertised recently also.

There have also been a number of Rural Transport routes opened up locally as well in the area connecting villages & towns, no wonder FFs vote held up in this part of the world.

Victor

http://www.kinsaleroadtrain.com/

There was/is one in Dublin Zoo. Are they street legal?

L1011

Victor wrote: »

http://www.kinsaleroadtrain.com/

There was/is one in Dublin Zoo. Are they street legal?

One would assume they are, as its running on public roads in Kinsale. Probably classed as a double artic truck or similar for licencing though!

mysterious

You never know horse/donkey meat could be tastier than cow meet.

Lets get rid of the cow. I have no beef about this.

Lets do hybridization. Instead of a bus/train.


I say lets go for a plane/Train.....Ha I thought of this idea first

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

I say lets go for a plane/Train.....Ha I thought of this idea first

Freddie Laker beat you to it - trademark wise anyway.

Stark

ODS wrote: »

Finally this is why the Greens are getting slaughtered down the country - it's remarkable such a kite would even be flown. Ah sure don't worry folks, in Dublin they're the prime political pushers for the 5bn metro to the airport - despite the fact greens disagree with air travel :rolleyes:

Irish Rail was a joke of a company long before the Greens ever tasted power.

dowlingm wrote: »

How would a railbus unmanned unsignalled LC be treated? A Yield right of way?

I'm guessing that the vastly reduced stopping distance means you could have a straightforward "switch it to amber, then red whenever you feel like it" traffic light system rather than a signalling system where you need to decide a good measure in advance that you're going to change to red and notify the train driver accordingly.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Freddie Laker beat you to it - trademark wise anyway.

Don't know who he is,

Buit I thought I was going to make headlines. A traiin/plane or planetrain would be more hip than a trainbus or bustrain.

What do you all think? "Serious stare"

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Don't know who he is,

Buit I thought I was going to make headlines. A traiin/plane or planetrain would be more hip than a trainbus or bustrain.

What do you all think? "Serious stare"

Revolutionised cross-Atlantic air travel in the 1980s.

KC61

mysterious wrote: »

Don't know who he is,

Buit I thought I was going to make headlines. A traiin/plane or planetrain would be more hip than a trainbus or bustrain.

What do you all think? "Serious stare"

Gosh when someone has never heard of Sir Freddie Laker, I realise that I'm getting older!!!!

He was miles ahead of his time and but for the combined efforts of BA and other airlines, the Ryanair concept would have been in full swing twenty years earlier!

Laker was a transatlantic airline that offered rock bottom prices in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but the other airlines did everything to stop it and on that occasion succeeded.

westtip

KC61 wrote: »

Gosh when someone has never heard of Sir Freddie Laker, I realise that I'm getting older!!!!

He was miles ahead of his time and but for the combined efforts of BA and other airlines, the Ryanair concept would have been in full swing twenty years earlier!

Laker was a transatlantic airline that offered rock bottom prices in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but the other airlines did everything to stop it and on that occasion succeeded.

Yes agreed needed to check the bottle of grecian 2000 having read about someone asking who was Freddie Laker. I think dear old Freddie (RIP 2006)was also done by a technical fault on a couple of his aircraft with the pressure seal or something on the cargo bay doors I think of the DC 10 - which grounded his aircraft in the late 70s around 79 and caused a cashflow crisis for the company which went under in 1982, he though was truly screwed by both the larger airlines (BA in particular) and the Government of the time - who of course owned BA till it was privatised. His legacy is Ryanair, Easyjet, Virgin etc - Although his concept of really rock bottom price no frills (AKA Ryanair) aviation on long haul is yet to be truly realised, a model which even now is restricted to shorthaul getting 6 or flights a day from aircraft, a business which is all about turnover of the seats, similar to fast food.

BTW I think he woudl have thought this train/bus completely daft!

IIMII

Have to admit that I hadn't heard of him though I was aware of these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines