tips on modern sounding/upfront drums

DamagedTrax

doing a session next week and the drummer is looking for that ultra modern upfront drum sound. i know the basics - dry room, close mic'd, well tuned kit etc but is there any other tips from you drum guru's?

PMI

Superior Drummer 2.0... haha

Youve got most of it there, tuning, micing and being prepared to use different skins, drums to get the desired effect....

Get the guy to bring as many snares, and skins as he has as its gonna take some time to get it right....

ogy

parralel compression?

DamagedTrax

ogy wrote: »

parralel compression?

its more the recording end im looking for tips on. that kind of sound needs to be right going in.

PaulBrewer

Mic Phase relationships .... more important that oxygen for the drummer in my opinion .
Phase issues at best give drums a 'distant' feel and at worst phuck them up entirely.
EVERY track we've ever had to mix in the last 2 years have had drum phase issues - it's a very common problem.

To avoid overhead issues I always use a crossed pair over the kit and not a spaced X-Y like you see in all the studio pics.

X-Y does, of course work, very well - but a closed spaced crossed pair always seems more phase coherent to my lugs especially if you're on the clock and need to get results fast.

This is particularly true for rooms with low ceilings where a spaced pair has to be low and therefore closer to the other mics ...

I'm also not a huge fan of the hat panned entirely to the right and the ride entirely to the left and the hyper panned toms ...

The tight crossed give a very natural stereo spread which monos up very well.

teamdresch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

X-Y does, of course work, very well - but a closed spaced crossed pair always seems more phase coherent to my lugs

This is XY -



Is that what you use?

studiorat

XY is crossed pair.

It actually uses phase differences to encode the stereo signal rather than AB or spaced which uses volume differences to encode the stereo signal.

Crossed pair is much more coherent because the mics are closer together. Spaced would usually be used for a more diffuse sound. Would try spaced in a more live room I suppose as it tends to soften the sound, not just for drums either.

The ORTF technique is a good comprimise IMO and worked well for me recently with choir and orchestra. Next time I'll use a taller Mic stand to get more equidistant between the choir and orchestra.

Mono overhead is useful as well, three drum sticks height from the snare. Spill from the cymbals on the tom mics can be used to give a stereo spread.

If I'm using a spaced pair over the kit I'll set the mic's to hyper cardioid as it narrows the cardioid pattern a bit, and get someone to move the mics while the drummer is playing and listen for the changes from the control room.

But at the end of the day it's really down to the player and how aware they are of they sound that they actually make them selves.

SeanHurley

Totally not a tight drum sound but I had great success witht he Glyn Johns method.

Basically it is a 4 mic set up.

1 cardoid condenser 40in above centre of snare pointing at the kick drum beater
1 cardoid condenser 40in from centre of snare pointing accross the drum kit towards hi-hat and 6 inches above floor tom rim
1 dymanic (d112 or similar) on kick
1 dynamic (57,beyer 201 or similar) snare top.

The low number of mics and careful measurement of the distance of overheads diminshes phase issues.

You pan the over heads either 30% each way or the mic above the cnare dead centre and the mic at floor tom 30% to the left.

Works very well for that King of Leon drum sound.

PaulBrewer

teamdresch wrote: »

This is XY -



Is that what you use?

Yes - maybe I'm getting my terms mixed up. What are the correct terms?

The point is the space between , the usual one mic over the right side of the kit and the other over the left is more difficult to manage to my lugs.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

id would go with sample replacing / blending on the close mics and mix with a well recorded overhead mix in a non ambient room .

the ortf over the drummers head facing the toms is a good compromise tween close xy and spaced pair

PaulBrewer

Does anyone check phase normally ? If so how do you do it?

PaulBrewer

teamdresch wrote: »

This is XY -



Is that what you use?

Those cable ties are out of phase ...

DamagedTrax

cheers guys. the drummer is pretty amazing, tight on the click and and doesnt try take over with the fills so thats one problem i wont have to deal with.

its more the overheads that bother me but we have a fairly dead room and a beautiful selection of mics to use (414, U87, 421, 57 etc). also got some advice today to centre the OH mics between the cymbals and turn them off axis to the snare (which i gues iss similiar to pauls suggestion).

also while im at it can anyone recommend somewhere to hire a top quality drum kit for the day? spoke to the drummer earlier and its no expense spared.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

cheers guys. the drummer is pretty amazing, tight on the click and and doesnt try take over with the fills so thats one problem i wont have to deal with.

its more the overheads that bother me but we have a fairly dead room and a beautiful selection of mics to use (414, U87, 421, 57 etc). also got some advice today to centre the OH mics between the cymbals and turn them off axis to the snare (which i gues iss similiar to pauls suggestion).

also while im at it can anyone recommend somewhere to hire a top quality drum kit for the day? spoke to the drummer earlier and its no expense spared.

Give Ronan or Aidan a bell in X.

PaulBrewer

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Watch the hi-hat spill in the snare especially. I

Aha ! that's why we have a set of 13 inch ones at the studio. Good point indeed.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

spoke to the drummer earlier and its no expense spared.

If that's the case why not record in a studio with a big room? Drums love space with height.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

If that's the case why not record in a studio with a big room? Drums love space with height.

we are recording in a certain studio with a VERY big beautiful live room.

thing is we want a really tight drum sound with very minimal room. the track was already recorded before by someone else and the band hated the room sound so we're re-recording.

guitars, on the other hand, will be making use of the live room.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

we are recording in a certain studio with a VERY big beautiful live room.

thing is we want a really tight drum sound with very minimal room. the track was already recorded before by someone else and the band hated the room sound so we're re-recording.

guitars, on the other hand, will be making use of the live room.

Where?

Usually close micing will be enough i.e. unless you stick up room mics up the sound will be 'close' even in a big room. Having height is a great thing too.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Where?

Usually close micing will be enough i.e. unless you stick up room mics up the sound will be 'close' even in a big room. Having height is a great thing too.

we're doing the first track in pulse and then relocating to w/lane for others.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

we're doing the first track in pulse and then relocating to w/lane for others.

Cool. Should be easy enough so.

I'm sure both of them will have the NS10 driver as a mic which is great for grabbing the 'Woof' too.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Cool. Should be easy enough so.

I'm sure both of them will have the NS10 driver as a mic which is great for grabbing the 'Woof' too.

dunno bout windmill but not that ive ever seen in pulse. do have a yamaha sub kick though.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

do have a yamaha sub kick though.

You're elected so ... the sub kick only goes down to 8 hz though, what about the 3 Octaves below that ?

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You're elected so ... the sub kick only goes down to 8 hz though, what about the 3 Octaves below that ?

i was thinking of hiring out some sort of weapon, i think the americans have experimented with them? i'll give the CIA a shout tomorrow.. or i could eat a viscious curry the night before?

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i was thinking of hiring out some sort of weapon, i think the americans have experimented with them? i'll give the CIA a shout tomorrow.. or i could eat a viscious curry the night before?

The North Koreans are building a yoke to record Minus Hz ... so everything below O Hz.

Actually, I think Peter's room in Nenagh could well be the best 'small' drum room in the country.
I don't think I've heard anything to compare to it.
Think Hi-Fi LA or Nashville .... or Queens of the Stone Age. That kind of thing.

http://www.myspace.com/middlewalk

DamagedTrax

was checking that out in the last thread you posted it in. looks pretty nice alright!

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

was checking that out in the last thread you posted it in. looks pretty nice alright!

I'm still in shock ...