chimney flue problems

Dominican

My next door neighbours have said that they have smoke problems from my fireplace,though on at least two occasions, when they complained' I hadn't a fire lit for months. I know absolutely nothing about solving this, for my own peace of mind. I just don't light a fire,and the only 'advice' I get from friends is "Oh, that will cost you a fortune", or,"your house will be pulled asunder". As a total ignoramus, and a scared one at that, I would welcome advice and recommendations, particularly on the approximate cost, and less so on the mess! Thanks.

porte

Sounds like you have a draw problem when you light your next fire open a window in the same room if this solves the smoke problem then you need to vent the room. you can do this yourself by knocking a 4" hole about 12 " below ceiling hight.Cut a lenght of 4" sewer pipe and place into the hole make sure you put the sewer pipe with a slight tilt outwards this stop any rain/moisture travelling back into the house.
If this does not solve the problem you can buy a self spinning cowel from any good d.i.y shop this will on a breezy day draw the smoke up and away. If the problem is still cause for concern try changing to smokless fuel to minimize the agro with your neighbour.;)

As for cost €30 max . use a dust sheet, if making a hole drill a series of holes with a masonary bit this will aid in knocking through.
Good luck and let me know how you get on.

crosstownk

How old is your house? What style is it? How many fireplaces do you have?

If your fire wasn't lighting then it's not your problem. The smoke/fumes are coming from elsewhere.

It could be that their chimney is suffering from downdraught and sucking in smoke from neighbouring chimneys. Down draught can easily be rectified by heating the flue.

PeteHeat

Hi,

The type / age of the house is very important, I have corrected a similar problem on a brick built chimney on terraced houses.

The chinmey did not have a standard liner which is what most expect in chinmeys, the houses were built circa 1870 with brick.

It is possible for the mid feathers in a shared stack to leak, even more possible if the houses are in a smoke free zone.

Chimneys can be lined with very little disruption to the house, however if the flues are leaking I would insist on lining all of the flues in the stack including your neighbours.

.

Ivory

What on earth is the matter with you that you are so willing to entertain this complaint? They are complaining to you about smoke when you don't have a fire lit? Obviously the problem is with their own fireplace or they are unusually sensitive to what's in the air. Also how come you are thinking about this in June? Kinda makes me think this is a wind-up. Is it?

PeteHeat

Hi,

Wind up or not there is an issue here that could be very serious if left unchecked in a genuine situation, I have no reason to think the original post is a wind up.

The people may be able to smell what they believe is smoke, however it could be the contents of the flue they can smell (soot).

It is possible for the neighbour to have a broken chimney pot that they can't see, the problem of actual smoke or the smell could be caused by wind direction.

The O.P. has two items to consider, his freedom to enjoy a fire in his own home whenever he so chooses and the safety and comfort of his neighbours.

With some more information it may be possible to point him in the right direction while the weather is good enough to undertake any works if required.

.

Dominican

Porte - apologies for the long delay in replying to you. Thank you so much for your very kind suggestions. I dont think my problem is a 'draw' one, as the room concerned is well ventilated, and the draw on the fire would normally be good.

CrosstownK - my house is over 50 years old and a semi, and I know its not my problem when my fire isn't lit, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, even though I believe their house is so well ventilated/sealed, and also, in my opinion, capable of sucking in neighbouring chimney "offerings". However, I have had a fire when they have had a problem.

PeteHeat - As you can see, my house is probably a fairly solid one, and I just need to eliminate MY involvement in this situation. I thought the answer would be to have my flue relined, and then, pardon me, hump their problem - if it still exists! To have you say that chimneys can be relined with little disruption to the house is a great consolation.

Ivory - There is nothing the matter with me - hopefully! I just want to light a fire, come the winter, lie on the sofa, bite into a nice apple, and watch a black anbd white movie....without worrying about my next door neighbours knocking on the door. Unfortunately, I dont really have a relationship with the people next door, as they like to be very private. Their house is as perfect as can possibly be, and while I sometimes suspect, as I have already said, that, occasionally, they can suck in other peoples smells, ( because they are so well sealed in) , I'm still worried that I have a problem. Peatheat's second comment is so on the spot, but they dont have a broken chimney-pot. As I said, everything is as near perfect as possible. Peatheat is also correct about doing the job when the weather is good enough. As I get older,I worry more, and I'm trying to eliminate worries from the future. I can think of great subjects with which to wind people up, - but not this, Im genuine. However, Ivory, thank you for making me burst out laughing!

I had given up hope of anyone repyling to my thread, and so I have been thinking that the best thing I can do, first of all, is get a good chimney sweep to give me his opinion as to whether he encounters any problems sweeping the chimney. Then, I guess, I look in the golden pages. I just hoped someone, who had encountered this problem, and had the flue relined, felt happy enough to give me the benefit of their experience. Thanks again everyone for your input.

PeteHeat

Hi Dominican,

Take care to ensure there is a problem before you decide to have any work carried out.

The obvious being why spend your hard earned cash on fixing a perfectly good chimney ?

The not so obvious is if you do have work carried out to your chimney and it was not the cause of the problem :

1) You leave your neighbour with an on going problem that may be caused by their own chimney stack.

2) Some (neighbours) would argue that you didn't get the problem fixed properly ??????????

3) Very hard to explain to people (who at that point may no longer be listening) as to why you had work carried out just so you could have a quiet life.

I suggest that you contact your neighbour and suggest that Both Of You have your chimneys inspected to help establish the cause or the problem, preferably agree on using the same advisor because if work is carried out responsibility falls on the contractor from both sides.

If there is a problem with the chimney which can happen in 50 year old houses as many were poured concrete which cracked in the event of a chimney fire because the flue could not expand, it is worth bearing in mind that the shared stack should also be a shared problem if one exists.

.

sooty_soupy

Hang on a second. As a registered chimney technician in Northern Ireland I feel I need to get involved. I am currently Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps and am a technical advisor to Building control in the province

A simple smoke test carried out on each of the flues will determine the integrity of the flues, BEFORE you spend anything.

If you were not using the fire, HOW THE HELL can smoke be coming into the neighbours house from your chimney.

Might I suggest it could be the "Spring/Autumn Syndrome"
During the very changeable whether conditions of Spring and Autumn the outside temperature can rise suddenly and become warmer than the temperature within the house.This causes the air within the flue
to reverse its normal flow pattern and air travels down the flue. The most obvious outcome of this will initially be a smell from the flue and whilst this is not harmful it may be unpleasant if the flue has not been swept as often as it should have been.

If it is this syndrome causing the problem, you might find the issue is with the neighbours chimney all along, and you are being used as scape goat....I mean...you didn't even have your fire lit, so forget midfeather breaches, or relining yet, no matter how old the house is. Get the neighbour to prove it is a fault of yours before you dip your hand in the pocket.

Syphonage is also a real problem, where the neighbour could be using a fireplace, and on a cold still day, the smoke can be drawn down an unused and colder flue while the smoke lingers.

There are so many factors that can effect the performance of a chimney, and so many people recommend spending money, before determining just what the problem is.

Hope this helps

David

whatcards

Hi David

I was wondering if you might have any ideas on a problem Im having. When we light our fire down stairs we get a smokey smell in the main room just above it. Even when the fire is not lighting we still have a smokey smell in the above room. Our house is a semi and seven years old, chimney get swept twice a year.

Thanks
Mick.

sooty_soupy

Hi Mick, if you have a look at the post I put up here you will get an idea of what I would imagine is the cause. Try warming the flue upstairs using a hairdryer, electric blow heater of if there is a good draught, and you know the chimney is clear, burn three of four newspapers a few sheets at a time scum pled up on the grate. This will warm the flue and start to reverse the issue of sinking air down a colder flue. Once you have done this, light the fire down stairs and see if you have the same issues. If not, you have determined that syphonage is the culprit. Just fit a taller chimney pot to the predominantly used fireplace, staggering the height of the pots and you're getting there.

Smokey smell, even when the fire is not lit can be cold air sinking down less often used fires and bringing down chimney odour, sooty smells, which permeate the house. To determine if this is the issue, light the fire in each fireplace once a week with just newspapers, kindling sticks and a small amount of fuel and keep the structure warm. If this helps, you might have to consider just doing this each Saturday morning for instance. Remember the old houses with fireplaces in every room including bedrooms that used the chimneys all the time. The chimney mass heated up in Autumn and remained warm the whole winter, keeping the structure dry and working well. All too often fireplaces and chimneys are infrequently used, especially in "good rooms" which presents problems.

Hope this helps.

D

PeteHeat

whatcards wrote: »

Hi David

I was wondering if you might have any ideas on a problem Im having. When we light our fire down stairs we get a smokey smell in the main room just above it. Even when the fire is not lighting we still have a smokey smell in the above room. Our house is a semi and seven years old, chimney get swept twice a year.

Thanks
Mick.

Unusual to have a fireplace upstairs in a seven year old house or is it a smell in a room that doesn't have a fireplace?

When did the problem start? if only in the past few weeks then I would go with David, if it's an ongoing problem especially in a room without a fireplace get the flue checked.
.

HereKitty

Hi there
I have a similar problem to previous poster Mick. Smell of smoke in upstairs room when fire lit downstairs. But no fireplace in the upstairs room. Anyone any ideas. The chimney has been cleaned recently and the problem is still there. I

Thank you

PeteHeat

HereKitty wrote: »

Hi there
I have a similar problem to previous poster Mick. Smell of smoke in upstairs room when fire lit downstairs. But no fireplace in the upstairs room. Anyone any ideas. The chimney has been cleaned recently and the problem is still there. I

Thank you

How old is your house?

When did you first notice the problem?
.

HereKitty

The house is a duplex and was built in 1994. I first noticed it at the end of feb this year after a winter of lighting fires. I got the chimney cleaned a few weeks ago and lit the fire last week and it happened again. Not as severe as the first time it happened, at that time the top room got quite smoky. I thought it might have been a once of, as someone said it was a draft and weather affecting it.

PeteHeat

HereKitty wrote: »

The house is a duplex and was built in 1994. I first noticed it at the end of feb this year after a winter of lighting fires. I got the chimney cleaned a few weeks ago and lit the fire last week and it happened again. Not as severe as the first time it happened, at that time the top room got quite smoky. I thought it might have been a once of, as someone said it was a draft and weather affecting it.

The weather can cause small down draughts however I expect any smoke or smells to be in the room where the fireplace is located or the room where there is a fireplace with an adjoining flue on the stack.

A lot of smoke in a room that doesn't have a fireplace is not a good sign especially when it persists, I am open to correction on this but I believe socketed flue liners were not mandatory here in 1994.

If it happens again I suggest playing safe and have the flue checked for leaks.
.

HereKitty

Thanks Pete for the reply. Will follow your advice and get it looked at. I'm presuming it will need a CCTV survey.
What do you think?

scudo2

Smoke in rooms = carbon monoxide

Which tragically killed my sister Avril in 1997
Get a professional in. This is not a winde up.
Pm me if you need. Ta

PeteHeat

HereKitty wrote: »

Thanks Pete for the reply. Will follow your advice and get it looked at. I'm presuming it will need a CCTV survey.
What do you think?

I would start with a smoke test, the smoke generated during the test is not harmful and doesn't leave lingering smells, it allows you to see if there are leaks in the flue, if no leaks start looking for the real source of the problem.

CCTV is good, the problem with old type flues is very few if any chimneys will pass a visual test because it is not always possible to know which (if any) of the minor cracks and joints are actually letting smoke or fumes through the chimney stack.

scudo2 is correct,

Many people associate Carbon Monoxide with gas because most of the TV ads are sponsored by the gas industry, all carbon fuels produce carbon monoxide Wood, Coal, Turf, Oil, Gas, Wood pellet etc.

.

sooty_soupy

I would concur with Pete. It makes more sense to carry out a smoke test. CCTV doesn't always show the point of escape, due to the nature of smoke, although it is helpful to see what the solution might be if a problem is identified. A smoke test involves access on to the roof, and roof space, so ensure it is done correctly. There are a number of rogues that will light a smoke pellet on the grate, see smoke out of the termination point and tell you all is well. You are needing simulated flue gasses to be trapped in the flue, sealed top and bottom, to help determine where the leakage may be.

Pete, just for reference, even if the liners had a socketed joint, it is often the case that they are installed upside down, and certainly I see on a daily basis where these joint are left wide open, especially as flues are taken off the vertical. (which is incidentally why I would also insist on a flex liner for slow burning appliances such as stoves) We are agents in Ireland for a special coating system we use in a case like this, which means we can seal all of these joints and also cracks after chimney fires, without the need to open walls. It's main advantage is that is doesn't result in a reduction in the diameter of the flue. The alternative solution is to have a smaller diameter flex flue installed and fit this to a closed appliance.

My sincere condolences to Scudo for the loss of your loved one, to such a needless and tragic accident, and it is to be applauded that you are using her passing to help others and raise awareness, and I personally thank you on behalf of the people that might read this and take action to save lives. I sit on the steering group with the health and safety executive in the North with regards to the Carbon Monoxide awareness programmes. Any fuel we use to heat our homes can produce carbon monoxide. If you recall back to the science lessons at school, you will perhaps remember CO2 and CO. CO2 was carbon DIOXIDE, which has 2 parts of oxygen, and is the product of complete combustion. CO is carbon MONOXIDE which has only 1 part oxygen. Blocked or restricted flue ways for oil gas and solid fuel are one of the main causes for this, but things like bigger appliances that need more oxygen in the room are a killer. Also badly designed flues, where some idiot has thought they knew what they were doing and fitted a new flue in say a sunroom, terminating in pressure zones causes no end of trouble. The classic is extractor fans in the kitchen environments which decompress buildings and the equalisation of pressure is made through the passage of least resistance, most likely the flue, bring poisonous gasses into the home.

We all too often buy a carbon monoxide detector, only to feel we have a guardian angel sitting over us, and then neglect to have flues swept and inspected. The amount of times I go into homes and the detector is not fitted in the correct position, but is set on the mantle, the hearth, the bookshelf, on the windowsill. If you can all do me a favour. If you have a detector, get the model of it from the label, go onto the manufacturers website or ring their helpline and find out where the unit needs to be fitted to actually serve a purpose in the home, and put it there.

A flue should be swept and inspected at least annually, and preferably before the service engineer calls to work on the appliance. Again, all too often, I hear gas and oil technicians claiming a flue doesn't need swept when burning these fuels. THEY ARE WRONG. All associated bodies representing these industries will endorse sweeping and inspecting flues, but on the ground the engineers seem to think they are doing you a favour, telling you it doesn't need done. They are gambling with your life. If they are servicing a boiler or fire, THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT CONDITION THE FLUE IS IN. People have lost their lives with cobwebs in chimneys. Think about a cold morning with due on the cobwebs on the gorse bushes. Now think about these webs across the aperture of your flue many times over, on the cold dank morning you use the system to heat your home. You might be getting the picture now. A flue doesn't need to be blocked to be dangerous, just restricted in diameter.

Hope this helps someone.

David

HereKitty

Condolences Scudo on the loss of your sister and thank you for posting your warning.

Many thanks David and Pete for your replies? One last question, what type of person should I get to investigate, is it a builder, an engineer or a specialist chimney firm. To ensure they are not cowboys, shoukd they be a member of a particular body.

Thanks

scudo2

Thanks Kitty.
I'm an oil service engineer/x plumber and am horrified over what I come across on boards and everyday in my work.
Stoves Q&A in the plumbing forum would shock you !
ps. Love the name, from a cat lover ( I have 2) who prefers dogs !! See ya.

Big thanks to David/ sooty .
I wish everybody can read his post .

HereKitty

@Scudo

Sophir

Hi Guys, I have a problem with the stove, after the summer the pull is gone... I have had the stove for the last 7 years, never had a problem. Got it cleaner in Sep and since then the pull is gone, turf is just sitting there, taking ages to get it going? Any idea what could be a reason? Reckon smth with the chimney, but no sure...