Societal Hypocrisy

RiverWilde

There is a case before the courts concerning a woman who is now 19 and the state is prosecuting a number of men for their sexual activities with this woman when she was 13. As repugnant as their predatory activities were it smacks of hypocrisy on the part of the state to prosecute in this case when they are so remiss in their duty to other individuals who were abused in the past by state santioned bodies. Who to date have done little to make reparation for their actions.

Also given the shoddy state of care for children within this state this trial really does indicate a public policy salve for the conscience of the state.

Riv

General Zod

what, they should be remiss in their duties now becuase they were remiss in their duties before?

You can't have it both ways.

Are you related to one of the people being prosecuted or something?

My name is URL

Is the woman just bringing charges against the men now?

I mean if she was raped as a teenager then she has every right to do so, but I doubt she was raped multiple times by different men and never reported it before now

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out

RiverWilde

No is I am not connected to the case in any way. It just strikes me that this really is a case 'to make example of' the individuals concerned. Where are the cases to 'make examples' of those who abused people in institutions etc etc???

Riv

Captain-America

He still had sex with a thirteen year old though. Surely he deserves a slap on the wrist for that at least. Regardless of everything else the state has failed on.

RiverWilde

I'm not disputing the legality here ... the individuals concerned broke the law ... irrespective of whether or not the woman concerned was a willing participant.

What I am asking though, is where are the high profile prosecutions for those who systematically abused people and as far as I can see are being 'protected?'

Where were the state bodies to intervene to prevent this child from getting into the situation in the first place?

Riv

K-9

RiverWilde wrote: »

Where were the state bodies to intervene to prevent this child from getting into the situation in the first place?

If the Authorities where not made aware of it, what could they do?

RiverWilde

The child was released from care and after this 'went off the rails.' Where was the follow up? Did the state just go, 'ach sure she's grand' and leave it at that? Why was she released from care if she had such problems that may have led to her subsequent actions?

Hand wringing just isn't good enough.

Riv

ScumLord

The state isn't some giant immortal slug living underground telling the elected government what to do you know. The state that was around in the 50s isn't in charge anymore, they've been replaced a number of times already. I hate the government as much, if not more than the next person but fairs fair, the current lot can't really be held responsible.

RiverWilde

Ach now that's just a cop out.

Riv

My name is URL

ScumLord wrote: »

The state isn't some giant immortal slug living underground telling the elected government what to do you know. The state that was around in the 50s isn't in charge anymore, they've been replaced a number of times already. I hate the government as much, if not more than the next person but fairs fair, the current lot can't really be held responsible.

I don't think they are being held responsible, but every government up until now failed to address the severity of the issue... the buck has to stop somewhere.

K-9

RiverWilde wrote: »

The child was released from care and after this 'went off the rails.' Where was the follow up? Did the state just go, 'ach sure she's grand' and leave it at that? Why was she released from care if she had such problems that may have led to her subsequent actions?

Hand wringing just isn't good enough.

Riv

Hard to know without knowing all the details.

There could well have been checks on her but again, how would they know what was happening unless she informed them?

She could well have been doing ok until these men abused her.

RiverWilde

I'm not arguing the merits or demerits of this case per se. It just strikes me that this case is being pursued, for whatever reason. When there are so many other cases that could be brought and other issues highlighted.

Riv

asti_mivec

ScumLord wrote: »

The state isn't some giant immortal slug living underground telling the elected government what to do you know. The state that was around in the 50s isn't in charge anymore, they've been replaced a number of times already. I hate the government as much, if not more than the next person but fairs fair, the current lot can't really be held responsible.

Hi, don't normally post on here but figured as I was reading that I had to reply to this one!! In reference to the above, I totally disagree with a couple of your points. The "state" is pretty much the exact same as it was in the 1950's, we still have the same archaic government who simply want to keep their cushty jobs without having to rock the boat or make life difficult for the next generation of politicians/church leaders, what has changed since then?? Not a lot and certainly nowhere near enough.

The current government, although not "responsible" for these crimes, should surely be held accountable and should be prosecuting the Church leaders who committed these crimes, the ones who covered them up, and also all politicians/public servants who aided in the coverup, and THEN they should start to remove the Church from our "state" by taking all control of schools, and by ridding the Irish constitution of all references to Religion and the Catholic Church.

I think this is what the OP was referring to....Why are "we" spending so much time and effort to prosecute those involved in the case with the 13 old girl - not that we shouldn't be doing this - when we are doing nothing about the hundreds/thousands of criminals who have been found guilty of similar/ worse acts in the Ryan report! I agree, it's a disgrace and another indication of how things tribunals etc work in this country....Ryan report is disgusting but all that's been done so far is Cowen has "apologised".

Sort it out please....

ScumLord

All true yes but we the people are essentially the state and it's us that are paying for it. I'd agree with taking the church to the cleaners and removing priests from all schools.

I'd agree with what your saying about our elected officials but that's never going to change as long as their in it for a job. I'd like to see something done about that too.

The problem as always with this country is we're going to spend the whole time arguing about the whole affair and nothing will ever change.

Jimdagym

Asti mivec, you need to get real. You think the current government is not responsible but should be accountable? You cant have your cake and eat it. Are you not responsible but accountable for the mistakes made by people doing your job 50 years ago?
Op, you posted in AH, so you dont really have the right to be offended if someone is light-hearted about the topic. There is a politics (and a conspiracy theory) forum which may be more sensitive.

... I'm not too familiar with the background here but ... why AREN'T the perpetrators identified in the Ryan Report being investigated and prosecuted. Some kind of legal technicality/immunity or something??

RiverWilde

The state does not get off the hook just because it happened in the 'past.' Now that's a subjective term. Hiding behind the excuse of 'it was like that when I got here sir.' Just does not cut it. The govt. is the govt. no matter what time period we're talking about. They can't just absolve themselves of responsibility because it's an awkward topic.

Also the govt. have a duty of care to EVERYONE not just the people it likes.

Riv

asti_mivec

Jimdagym, I am for real. Think about it, the current government were not in power 50 years ago so can't be responsible for what happened back then, BUT (and it's a big but ) they are accountable for dealing with it now as it is an unresolved issue from previous governments! I sure can have my cake and eat it too, if I so choose, I can have and eat all the cake I want...why shouldn't I be able to....we all have a choice to do what we want and if having cake and eating it doesn't harm anybody else then I see no reason for me not to!

And FWIW, yes I am accountable for mistakes made by people who have done my job before me....I don't blame other people but rather fix their mistakes and try not to make the same ones again!

I really think that we can make these changes happen, it's that same old attitude (where people always say that we can't change these things) that is holding us back I believe. If we all look at what's happening in this country and none of us seem to be happy with it, then it is entirely up to us to make the changes happnen...no? It won't be easy but it has to happen if we don't want to see these kinds of things continuing!

In answer to Jackie Brown, I'm not really sure why they aren't being prosecuted, but I think (and am totally open to correction) that it might have something to do with the indemnity deal struck several years ago in an effort to give some cash to the victims (10% supplied by the church) and keep it all relatively "hush, hush".

Jimdagym

There is a big difference between being accountable for something and being accountable for dealing with something now though. You used different terms in different posts.
Fwiw, i think in cases like this, sons should pay for the sins of the father. But you cannot have a government resign over skeletons in closets from 50 years ago. This country has far too many, and general elections would be 5 times a year.
The government has a mandate to deal with these things as they come to light imo, and should be judged on how they deal with the problems, rather than being judged on the problems themselves.

asti_mivec

Jim, fair point. I did in fact mean that they should be accountable for dealing with the situation as it stands currently - although I didn't explain that explicitly which is the reason for the confusion!

I totally agree that to suggest tearing the government apart over just this would be rather gung-ho and not really achieve a lot. However, I do believe that the current government should see this as the final straw with regard to the Catholic Church's involvement in our education system for a start with a view to ridding all state run bodies of any affiliation to the Church as they are clearly holding this country back in terms of our social advancement amongst other things and I think that the current situation in light of the Ryan report should give justification for this.

I realise that the government can only deal with things as they come to light, but this hasn't only come to light for the government and as such the people who have neglected to deal with this mass cover up and abuse of power should be out on their ear!

Jimdagym

Agree with all of that asti. 100%.

dr.bollocko

Moved from AH as such a discussion deserves a more serious home.
Apologies mods if this is the wrong place.