Need help with songwriting?

bigobriener

This is mainly for singersongwriters who are having problems with songwriting techniques. If you need help, let me know!

I did allot of chatting on Youtube to people and became a real help, so would like to share my knowledge and experience with others.

So don't be shy

donkeypop

Hi,

I'm a songwriter, but I'm not having problems with songwriting at the moment.

I'd just like to say that I think the first two tracks on your MySpace have nice melodies, and the falsetto in the choruses is particularly lovely. The production on the second track is spot on as well.

bigobriener

thank you very much.. It looks like i tried to promote my music, i'm not really. I'd love to encourage people to play music is all..
I have like 4 students now, and feel compelled to have more, one day i'll be a student of there talent!!

Mcjmetroid

Not really a songwriter as such But Have been in a band before and looking to get back into the scene..

I am a piano player and have very little experience with writing lyrics.. i tend to be ok with writing music I have tried to do mock soundtracks and stuff inspired by films and I like it..

Was never really a person for words so I'm stuck here any tips for lyric writing?
thanks

also In general how would you begin to write a song? start with the basic chords and write them down or something?

bigobriener

there are many ways or writing a song, the main idea is to set an objective. Find out what you want to write about, and do it, some people just repeat what they hear, and twist the lyrics subconciously. If you have an idea you want to write about, then theres water to feed the seed. Most songwriters have a direct consumer, like heartbreak songs. This means their customers are people who suffer heartbreak, which is 90% of humans at some stage. Once you have something to write about the rest follows with natural music. e.g, minor chord for sad parts and major up tempo for happy... Helped in anyway???

donkeypop

It's not so much being good with words; it's how the words fit into the song. For instance, here are the words of a great song:

Love, love me do, You know I love you, I'll always be true, so please, love me do. Oh Love me do.

Someone to love; somebody new. Someone to love; someone like you

Lennon and McCartney were arguably the best songwriters of all time, but relative to later songs their early work was lyrically simplistic, and yet their early songs were still incredibly catchy and memorable. How did they do that? Well, one of the great things about the chorus of "Love me do" is how all the notes are short, almost staccato (a short note for every word/syllable), except for the "Please" - which is extended (melismatic) - and juxtaposed with the rest of the chorus gives the word "Please" a real sense of yearning and begging, which of course it should have. Basically, it makes the chorus fun to sing.

So, it's not about the words per se, it's how you use them in conjunction with the melody to express yourself. You can of course learn to be more poetic and complex as you go along, for instance:

Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup, They slither while they pass, they slip away across the universe Pools of sorrow, waves of joy are drifting through my open mind, Possessing and caressing me. Jai guru deva om. Nothing's gonna change my world, Nothing's gonna change my world.

or,

Your faith was strong but you needed proof, You saw her bathing on the roof, Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you. She tied you To her kitchen chair, She broke your throne, she cut your hair, And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah


And even though the lyrics of "Hallelujah" are wonderful poetry (Leonard Cohen is a poet first, songwriter second), they still needs to be expressed properly. Note when you listen to the song how the rising chords/melody are used for the lines "she tied you to her kitchen chair, she broke your throne, she cut your hair", to convey the rising drama of the scene. After all that the Hallelujah comes as a palpable relief.

So, whether the words are complex or simple, whether the song is about a sentiment as ubiqitous as wanting to love and hold someone, or something as obscure as the sexuality and lust within Old Testament stories, it is the expression of the words within the song that matters.

***

Some lyrics however will be trite, naff and clichéd no matter what expression you put into them. There are probably millions of songs about love and millions more about the loss of love and even more about the wanting of love. It's very, very difficult to write something original about relationships. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try, or that it's all been done before, it means that you should try to have a really good hook, or write about relationships from a different perspective. One good recent example of this is "Not Fair" by Lily Allen, which is a fun song about something that people don't often write about (or write about well).

Try to stay away from preachy songs as well, especially the "wouldn't it all just be great if we hugged homeless people and brought them home and had them living in our box room" variety or the "imagine that was your child/Jesus" type. Those songs are the lyrical equivilant of a charity mugger, and IMO are about as welcome. Unless you imagine your song is going to be sung by a hoarde of terribly earnest pop stars (i.e. "Do they know it's Christmas"), or you feel that Phil Collins really needs a follow-up single for "Another Day in Paradise", or you have a really new angle on some social problem, avoid preachy songs. Earnest preaching at people rarely works; most people want a song they can relate to.

By the way, an example of a great song that preaches gently yet gives something people can relate to (and works) is "The Island" by Paul Brady. He observes and asks us to observe what we are doing instead of telling us what to do.

Also, like most of us, he doesn't want to think about all these horrible things, he just wants to have his time away from on The Island with his Love and his private life. He even knowingly berates himself for writing about his society's problems:

But Hey! Don't listen to me! This wasn't meant to be no sad song, We've heard too much of that before, Right now I only want to be here with you

And, in the song he isn't any better than anyone else either. He isn't taking the high moral ground:

Now I know us plain folks don't see all the story, And I know this peace and love's just copping out. And I guess these young boys dying in the ditches, Is just what being free is all about.


Finally, be prepared to write a lot of dross. Everyone writes terrible songs, even people who are usually good songwriters. And, when you do write a song that you like, be prepared that no-one else you play it to might like it. Being expressive, having a decent hook, having lyrics that aren't naff in the context of the song and work well with the melody will help a lot, but it doesn't mean that the song will be great or memorable. If someone could tell you how to write a hit every time, they probably wouldn't be posting on boards.ie on a Monday morning, would they?

gagomes

donkeypop wrote: »

...large amounts of good opinions and advice...

After checking the Not Fair song on youtube with lyrics... I could never thought this song had such a lyric. I am not a native english speaker and I heard this song a handful of times on the radio without ever noticing what the lyrics were all about. Now after reading them, the song just made a different impression on me... definitely well written for what it matters, but it just disrupted my earection.

donkeypop

gagomes wrote: »

After checking the Not Fair song on youtube with lyrics... I could never thought this song had such a lyric. I am not a native english speaker and I heard this song a handful of times on the radio without ever noticing what the lyrics were all about. Now after reading them, the song just made a different impression on me... definitely well written for what it matters, but it just disrupted my earection.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that you have been....emm....disrupted. Hopefully normal tumesence will resume soon.

gagomes

donkeypop wrote: »

Well, I'm sorry to hear that you have been....emm....disrupted. Hopefully normal tumesence will resume soon.

Notice though, that I meant my earection ;-)

donkeypop

gagomes wrote: »

Notice though, that I meant my earection ;-)

Well, some people's ears do funny things at certain times....;)

gagomes

donkeypop wrote: »

Well, some people's ears do funny things at certain times....;)

Indeed :rolleyes:

Getting back on topic. I believe my major problem when writing music and lyrics, is the fact that I can't sing or make any melodies that I would like to fit these lyrics. Is this a problem easy to solve? any tips? I wrote a lyric just recently for a song I made...but when I hear the song and try to speech the lyrics on top of it, I really can't get a melody going...

Infoseeking

I personally think that it helps to have read or heard a lot of good lyrics/poetry/literature/beautiful language, when it comes to writing your own stuff. I'd suggest broadening your 'input', really throwing your self into the world of well chosen words.

Another thing I would recommend is something that helped me immensely. Keep a diary (or 'journal' if you want to sound sophisticated ) and keep it regularly. Over a period of three months I wrote 30,000 words in mine and at the end of I had a noticeably better command of language.

You could also get a book called 'The Ode Less Travelled' by Stephen Fry. It is a book about poetry but the tools it teaches you can easily be transferred to song writing.

Ok, there's my ten cents. Good luck everybody.

Infoseeking

One of the things I did in my diary was metaphoricise my emotional life as much as possible. I know that sounds a bit pretentious, but all I mean is that I would go to town on trying the find words, images and stories that served as metaphors to capture as closely as possible how I was feeling . I wasn't angry, I was a brooding Titan; I wasn't sad, I was a weeping brook; I wasn't feeling sincere, I was feeling like cutting my guts outs and putting them on display in the town square; that kind of thing. And importantly I didn't care that I might be feeling nothing. Nothing is one of my favourite words

Write on.

Infoseeking

bigobriener wrote: »

Find out what you want to write about, and do it, some people just repeat what they hear, and twist the lyrics subconciously.

I think that's really good advice. So many lyrics aren't genuine because people too often write from other people's hearts and not their own. It might come as a surprise formulaic pop person but you actually have a story no one owns. Take the difficult but rewarding journey into yourself and drag that lyric out. Speak up for your Self, in all it's idiosyncratic, unique and quirky separateness.

Sorry if I sound like a gimp. If it's any consolation, I mean it Terrah.

bush Baby

"In songwriting, there are no rules!!" - Brett Perkins