X - Communication

Tim Robbins

I've been thinking about this more and more since the publication of the Ryan report.

Firstly, I haven't x - communicated as I thought I didn't see the need to and I thought I may need it someday either for my children or someone else in my family.

I am now thinking by not x - communicated I am indirectly supporting a quazi nazi organisation and it's my moral duty to leave. I also think I am not being a true atheist as officially a religious organisation can claim me as there's.

So my first question to you is has the Ryan report made you seriously consider x - communicating?

My second question ( I appreciate this has come in some threads before) are there any negative consequences of this? My Mother is a practising Roman Catholic, if I x - communicate can this make funeral arrangements or something I might have to do when she gets older complicated?

As far as I know all it will mean is I can't baptize my kids and I can't be a god parent?

Any things else?

Thoughts, comments appreciated.

jhegarty

Someone who is excommunication can still attend mass , just can't receive communion.

But I don't think it's what you are after. It's more of a been kicked out , than leaving of your own accord thing.

IrishKnight

Excommunication isn't what people most people would think. If one is excommunicated from the church it simply means one can not receive any of the sacraments, i.e. communion!

If one is excommunicated, one is still considered a member of the church and a catholic.

What's more, like the mob, there is no way to leave the church. Once a catholic always a catholic in the eyes of the church. You can, however, submit a document to the bishop of the parish you were baptised in to removed your name from the record.

The document is called "Declaration of Defection from the Roman Catholic Church"

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4430/defectcc002yc9.jpg

Head over to http://atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=413 and at around page 7 or so you can see comments from people who defected...

Hope this helps.

IK

Eglinton

IrishKnight wrote: »

You can, however, submit a document to the bishop of the parish you were baptised in to removed your name from the record.

Justing thinking about this and wondering if the Catholic Church in Ireland (and elsewhere), is liable under the Data Protection Act for holding records on persons without their permission. I'm sure somewhere there's a file with my name on it, be it Baptism, Communion, Confirmation etc. Seeing as an adult I've never given my permission to hold these documents, I assume they would have to destroy them.

This is what the Data Protection website says

if you feel that the organisation or person does not have a valid reason for holding your personal details or that they have taken these details in an unfair way, you can ask them to change or remove these details.

I don't see the need for that Declaration of Defection form - just write the Church a letter quoting the Data Protection Act and they'll have to remove your files and subsequently won't be able to use you in the figures they state when talking about the number of Catholics in Ireland.

IrishKnight

Eglinton wrote: »

Justing thinking about this and wondering if the Catholic Church in Ireland (and elsewhere), is liable under the Data Protection Act

Not so, see http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=107&StartDate=01+January+2007

We over at Atheist Ireland have being looking into this for a while now, and the defection appears to be the only way

Zillah

IrishKnight wrote: »

Not so, see http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=107&StartDate=01+January+2007

We over at Atheist Ireland have being looking into this for a while now, and the defection appears to be the only way

That doesn't exactly seem clear cut. The main issue is that they couldn't find his records.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I also think I am not being a true atheist as officially a religious organisation can claim me as there's.

I'm sure you've anticipated this reply - but atheism is a personal belief and what some corporeal organisation thinks they have you down as, is irrelevant.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

My Mother is a practising Roman Catholic, if I x - communicate can this make funeral arrangements or something I might have to do when she gets older complicated?

As long as you don't ex-communicate your mother, I can't see why any arrangements for her down the line would be affected by your actions. As a RC, she will always be entitled to a church funeral. Your funeral might be a different matter!

Tim Robbins wrote: »

As far as I know all it will mean is I can't baptize my kids and I can't be a god parent?

To be fair - if you feel strongly enough to ex-communicate yourself you should hardly be concerned by either of these. That said, I don't believe the RC church are in the business of turning away new recruits. Any kids of yours could be put forward for baptism by their mother, or maybe other relatives once consent is given.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

I'm sure you've anticipated this reply - but atheism is a personal belief and what some corporeal organisation thinks they have you down as, is irrelevant.

Yes and no.
Politically the RCC are getting away with murder. Literally.
They only reason why they are not being brought to justice is because of the political clout they have.

Politicians see them as a massive edifice that if you alienate will mean your political career is over.

If it was found that a small Church / religion did what they did, they'd be brought to justice. That makes me sick.

To be fair - if you feel strongly enough to ex-communicate yourself you should hardly be concerned by either of these. That said, I don't believe the RC church are in the business of turning away new recruits. Any kids of yours could be put forward for baptism by their mother, or maybe other relatives once consent is given.

Not concerned. My wife is protestant so don't see that happening.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Not concerned. My wife is protestant so don't see that happening.

They baptise too, no? Though I guess if you're talking a RC baptism for say, school enrollment purposes, then you might have trouble. Some good COI schools about.

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

They baptise too, no? Though I guess if you're talking a RC baptism for say, school enrollment purposes, then you might have trouble. Some good COI schools about.

Some do, some don't. She's Presbyterian but only goes to C.o.I. occasionally more because she just likes going rather than some dogmatic belief system.

We'll probably do educate together and not baptize kids, but I have no problem if she wishes to bring kids as long as it doesn't come ahead of playing sports and the religious instruction is not extreme.

Both of us are open minded, liberal, flexible and respectful of the other person. I thought I'd come across posters on boards who were in similar positions but they're doesn't seem to be many.

IrishKnight

Zillah wrote: »

That doesn't exactly seem clear cut. The main issue is that they couldn't find his records.

"With regard to his request to have his data deleted from the Register, should the relevant record be identified by him, it is my understanding that the data could not be deleted from the Register as it is essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised."

Eglinton

IrishKnight wrote: »

"With regard to his request to have his data deleted from the Register, should the relevant record be identified by him, it is my understanding that the data could not be deleted from the Register as it is essential for the administration of Church affairs to maintain a register of all the people who have been baptised."

Just wondering how they can justify that keeping a record is essential if you don't want it there or haven't ever given your permission. I agree with Zillah, the info in the link doesn't appear clear cut.

jhegarty

Eglinton wrote: »

Just wondering how they can justify that keeping a record is essential if you don't want it there or haven't ever given your permission. I agree with Zillah, the info in the link doesn't appear clear cut.

Under that logic someone could request that a bank delete records of late payments on loans because no longer have an account there.

The data protection act is about correcting information that is wrong, not stuff you wished didn't happen.

Eglinton

jhegarty wrote: »

Under that logic someone could request that a bank delete records of late payments on loans because no longer have an account there.

The data protection act is about correcting information that is wrong, not stuff you wished didn't happen.

No I don't think so. Banks etc. operate under strict legislation that requires them to keep records for audit trails. They're legally obliged to do so. A Church has no legal basis to hold records on your without your persmission.

jhegarty

Eglinton wrote: »

No I don't think so. Banks etc. operate under strict legislation that requires them to keep records for audit trails. They're legally obliged to do so. A Church has no legal basis to hold records on your without your persmission.

The data protection act only allows you delete data under certain grounds

1) It is incorrect.
That is not grounds here as the baptism did take place.

2) It was collected improperly
Presuming your parents signed the baptism cert (as they can act on your behalf at that age) then that isn't grounds.

3) They have no reason to keep the data
This is only grounds you may have a case with. But I would argue that they entitled to keep records of a creamery that happened legally on their premises.

robindch

Tim Robbins wrote: »

As far as I know all it will mean is I can't baptize my kids and I can't be a god parent?

Checked this up a while ago -- your kids can be baptized. Hell, according to Canon Law, you can even (as an atheist) carry out a valid baptism ceremony yourself! Not sure about the godparenting bit, but I'd imagine that they just require you to promise to ensure that the godchild is indoctrinated properly. I wouldn't imagine that they worry too much about what you believe yourself.

BTW, here's Mr Ratzinger saying that the catholic church is a bit like Hotel California -- once you're checked in, you can never leave. See point seven here:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Morgase

I've posted this on the athiest.ie forums aswell, but I hope it might be of some use to anyone here who is thinking of officially leaving the church.

Well I also have decided to get my name off the church's lists. Here is the letter I am going to send to the Bishop of Ferns and I will be copying it to the priest of the church where I was baptised. Any suggestions / amendments welcome!

"I wish to declare my formal defection from the Roman Catholic Church.

I hereby reject the teachings, dogma and authority of the Roman Catholic Church and any benefits, so-called sacraments, graces and blessings supposedly bestowed upon me, either in the past or the future. Furthermore, please note that I make these statements personally, consciously and freely.

As a principled and rational person, it pains me that I am being counted as an adherent of an irrational superstition which has done and is doing irreparable harm to humanity and with which I profoundly disagree. The recent publication of the Ryan report has given me the impetus to make my defection from your organisation official.

I note that I was baptised when I was not in a position to consent to being made a member of your organisation. In addition, I was forced to take part in the other initiation ceremonies of communion and confirmation against my will.

Please record that I am no longer a Roman Catholic. I respectfully request confirmation that this has been noted in the baptismal registry with explicit mention of the occurrence of a defection.

I am supplying you with some of my personal information to aid you in officially recording my defection.

Birthdate: xxx
Date of Baptism: Assumed to be at a date between xxx
Name of Parents: xxx
Church of Baptism: xxx

Sincerely,
xxx"

ScumLord

The one good thing about the catholic church in Ireland is their records up to this point. They've kept a great census of the people of Ireland. I wouldn't be to pushed about taking my name out of the list as it could be helpful to family in the future. At the end of the day there's little official paper work, your just switching ideals it's like saying you don't believe in santa anymore it's not a huge deal either way.

Just make it a point of stating your not catholic whenever asked and when the next census rolls around do the same. It's a pity we've recently had a census I'd say if there was one due next year we'd see the real consequences of what the church did.

Morgase

ScumLord wrote: »

The one good thing about the catholic church in Ireland is their records up to this point. They've kept a great census of the people of Ireland.

You're right that the church kept good census records for Ireland until now. However now that we have a census carried out by the state I don't think I need to be on their lists anymore!

I wouldn't be to pushed about taking my name out of the list as it could be helpful to family in the future.

As far as I know they won't remove you from the list as such, but mark you as defecting from the church.

At the end of the day there's little official paper work, your just switching ideals it's like saying you don't believe in santa anymore it's not a huge deal either way.

Just make it a point of stating your not catholic whenever asked and when the next census rolls around do the same. It's a pity we've recently had a census I'd say if there was one due next year we'd see the real consequences of what the church did.

I always put "no religion" on the census and anyone who knows me knows my views too. My main reason for doing this is so that they cannot claim me as being a catholic.

At the moment they can claim that a certain percentage of people in Ireland are catholic due to being baptised, and therefore can put pressure on the state by saying they represent the majority of the people, but hopefully this letter will mean they can no longer claim me!

Dades

Morgase wrote: »

hopefully this letter will mean they can no longer claim me!

I'm sure they'll get the point - but do you really need to demean them whilst having yourself struck off? There are other ways of voicing your views without bothering your local PP, and a simple request would have the same effect.

Morgase

Dades wrote: »

I'm sure they'll get the point - but do you really need to demean them whilst having yourself struck off? There are other ways of voicing your views without bothering your local PP, and a simple request would have the same effect.

Thanks for the reply. I was doing a bit of research about how to go about making sure I'm not counted as a catholic, and it seems the church's records are kept at the church you were baptised in. So although I'd prefer to send this to their "head office" I kinda have to send it to the PP.

The reasoning behind the tone of the letter is that I'm trying to be not at all wishy washy in order to dissuade them from replying saying "please reconsider".