The English ancestor

markopantelic

In school I am the guy with the obvious sounding 'foreign' name, but what I always find interesting is how that English ancestry is never something people bring up even though the evidence of it are everywhere to be seen.

Why is this? Is it because many Irish names were anglicised so its kinda hard to distinguish between what is 'native' and 'foreign'?

Ostrom

markopantelic wrote: »

In school I am the guy with the obvious sounding 'foreign' name, but what I always find interesting is how that English ancestry is never something people bring up even though the evidence of it are everywhere to be seen.

Why is this? Is it because many Irish names were anglicised so its kinda hard to distinguish between what is 'native' and 'foreign'?

In what sense? In terms of place names there is an argument for a distinctively 'Dublin' character to Anglicized place-naming.

Are you talking geographically or in terms of family?

markopantelic

family

conchubhar1

most wouldnt know unless it was

a - parent
b - grand parent
c - great grandparent

most would be lucky to be able to go even that far back, or be arsed to

pinkypinky

It depends on your own family I suppose. I knew from a young age that I had a great-great grandmother from Wales because my grandmother talked about her a lot. I can trace my ancestry back quite far and despite having an "English" surname myself, have no English ancestry yet.

conchubhar1

people have been known to take surnames of leaders of the time

one example is the huge base of people called o'brien or variants - they are not all related to brian boru

dubtom

My surname is 'exotic' too.;)I know I have English ancestors because there is a place in england with the same name,which originated from a Norman (I think) with that particular name. The name in Ireland dates back to the 13th century,whether I'm a decendant of the original I don't know. In terms of claiming english ancestry,I'll have to admit it always had the nail on blackboard effect on me when brought up.

markopantelic

just to add to my point, type in irish people of english descent into google and the first thing that comes up is the exact opposite of that(english people of irish descent) even though its fact in the 1700's many english who faced persecution for their views moved to ireland and also england had many famines during this time and people who were poverty stricken moved to ireland.

IIMII

I doubt if any of them moved here to share the sorry lot of the Gaelic serf

conchubhar1

well there are substantially more famous english people (american and others) with irish descent than there are

irish people of english descent etc....

plus i find the above comment both useless and pompous

Dionysus

markopantelic wrote: »

In school I am the guy with the obvious sounding 'foreign' name, but what I always find interesting is how that English ancestry is never something people bring up even though the evidence of it are everywhere to be seen.

Why is this? Is it because many Irish names were anglicised so its kinda hard to distinguish between what is 'native' and 'foreign'?

Most people probably just think something like 'that's an odd name' and fleetingly try and recall if they've ever heard it before. They may ask where it's from if it's sufficiently unusual. As you intimated yourself, by the time they've met you they are probably aware that most Smiths in Ireland, particularly around south Ulster where they are most common, are actually Mac Gabhann and not English, and so forth for many, many other surnames. So most Irish people, still using English ('anglicised') surnames themselves, know your people could have had that surname imposed on them.

Somebody with an anglicised version of an Irish surname and with notions about herself put it to me (in a certain tone, of course) about my own surname, 'What sort of surname is that?' and I laughed and asked where she was from. She mentioned some place and I just quipped 'ah the bog, that explains it' and walked off before she had a chance to reply in her recently-acquired affected Dublin-London accent. Loike, you know.

The thought of any Irish person using their English ('anglicised') surname looking down on people whose ancestors are actually English is too hard for me to fathom. If they had the independence of mind to put their surname back in the Irish that would be refreshingly admirable in this era of boring conformity, but the only people doing that in this day and age seem to be well above average education levels and thus less susceptible to the sort of prejudices that mark people like mo dhuine above.

They should put Edward Said's Orientalism (or was it Culture and Imperialism?) on the school curriculum, especially that part about how the coloniser seeks to control the representation of the native to the outside world, particularly in the names he has given them. It's a deeply powerful thesis, one which Brian Friel brought on stage with Translations.

Dionysus

dubtom wrote: »

My surname is 'exotic' too.;)I know I have English ancestors because there is a place in england with the same name,which originated from a Norman (I think) with that particular name. The name in Ireland dates back to the 13th century,whether I'm a decendant of the original I don't know. In terms of claiming english ancestry,I'll have to admit it always had the nail on blackboard effect on me when brought up.

If your people on the patrilineal side came in the 13th century it is most likely they had been gaelicised and that they had another name in the Irish before switching back when the Tudor conquest began in the mid-sixteenth century. The Stauntons of Mayo, for example, were Mac an Mhílidh (and several other surnames) but some changed back to the English surname when the English conquered Mayo, but many others use the anglicised version of Mac an Mhílidh, McEvilly, today.

As for you last sentence, as any self-respecting Gael will tell you the Gaeil throughout (recorded!) history have proudly claimed to be, to paraphrase Dónall Ó Néill in the Remonstrance in 1317, the last legitimate invaders of Ireland. The Gaeil, the Irish, historically have been very proud of their (real or reputed) Milesian origins, Milesian being a synonym for Irish. People of a certain anti-Irish persuasion prefer to portray Irishness as a nativist 'ethnic' phenomenon historically but such attempts rest uncomfortably with Irish self-definitions in history. Additionally, just look at some common Irish surnames - Ó Dubhghaill & Ó Fionnghaill, for instance - to see the Viking root in the second syllable. The portrayal is merely a continuation of the dichotomy of a seemingly civilised and progressive English culture versus a supposedly backward and conservative Irish culture.

Alas, as for the self-respecting Gaeil there are few enough of them or even Éireannaigh in this day and age in this 'Sasana nua d'arb ainm Éire' (New England called Ireland), to quote one post-Cromwellian poet. Or to quote Andrew Marvell (1621-1678), following Cromwell's return from Ireland: 'And now the Irish are ashamed to see themselves in one year tamed.'

Karlusss

IIMII wrote: »

I doubt if any of them moved here to share the sorry lot of the Gaelic serf

Yeah, but they did move in, found towns, plant land and dispossess Gaelic non-serfs over the course of a couple of centuries so it follows that there would be a legacy in surnames.

I suppose in response to the OPs original question, it would be either misguided or hypocritical of almost anyone with an Irish surname, whether still in Gaelic form (like, say, Mac Domhnaill) or hybridised form (say, Byrne), to try to claim they were any different to someone with an overtly English surname (say Cooper or Wright).

If somebody has traced their line back to pre-Conquest times and has decided that they're legitimately full Gaelic and want to take on some sort of weird neo-nationalism about it, they'd probably pretty quickly find that most of their nationalist models and probably almost everyone they knew had mixed heritage, whether their patrilineal surname showed it or not.

Also worthy of note:
- a fairly big percentage of the O's and Mc's in surnames today are post-Gaelic League reclaimings of Gaelic heritage. O'Connell/pragmatism would've encouraged anglicisation over a long period - hence Dionysus' example of Mac Gabhann.
- there are a lot of Gaelicised English and Viking names out there too: Mac Amhlaoibh (sp) = McAuley = Mc Olaf for example.


So moral of the story, unless you're pretty much Ó Néill Mór himself, hiding in the hills since the 16th century, a surname isn't really an indication of much any more in Ireland.

markopantelic

ok really great stuff. i have like a fascination with surnames lol

asdasd

So moral of the story, unless you're pretty much Ó Néill Mór himself, hiding in the hills since the 16th century, a surname isn't really an indication of much any more in Ireland.

Actually, it is. I remember reading a report in some geneaology magazine about how people in the West of Ireland with Irish surnames had DNA traces ( Alleles) in common with each other. People with English surnames were less likely to have that ( indicating that some reluctance to inter-marry even amongst Irish and old English). In the East the difference was less marked.

An English surname and protestantism may mean that you are totally of English descent - as Grahman Norton found out.

I have an English surname, as it happens. Irish first name.

devereaux17

sorry for going a bit off topic but ive never really got the origin of the devereaux surname

is it norman or french and whats the difference?

asdasd

the French D'Evreux = Of Evreux (Eure, Normandy). This name was Latinized De Ebroicis, and is derived from the Celtic tribal name Eburovices = the dwellers on the Ebura or Eure River.

asdasd

The normans in general were an aristocratic addition to the Irish and English lineage, and there were really not that many of them. generally they were of viking descent, invaders who took over Normandy, converted to Christianity and were given Lordships by the French King at the time.

Normans tend to be named after where they come from ( De meaning from) D'Evreux.

From Evereux

gurramok

There are not many blondes(real undyed blonde hair types ) in the Irish population.

Cross the water to England(or NI) and they are everywhere. Somehow, i think most over here pre-EU immigration are descended from Normans/Vikings/English and they are normally found in urban areas.

It just so happens that urban areas seem to have the most anglicsed names as a proportion of the population, maybe of English ancestry, a co-incidence?

Now, where did the black hair/dark eyes section of the white population come from?

asdasd

Now, where did the black hair/dark eyes section of the white population come from?

we are mosty dark haired and light eyed, which is an unusual look, particularly with black hair. The English blondes - more frequent in the SE I think - are probably showing an Anglo-Saxon look, not a viking one.

maybe of English ancestry, a co-incidence?

Not at all. The towns were English settlements for a long time ( and I dont mean just Dublin). The history of streets named IrishTowns in Irish towns is a hint.

CDfm

devereaux17 wrote: »

sorry for going a bit off topic but ive never really got the origin of the devereaux surname

is it norman or french and whats the difference?

Norman from d'Evreux in Normandy when Normandy was a Seperate Duchy/autonomous state and not part of France.Probably related to that other great norman family Gateux

thusspakeblixa

I kind of get the English thing the OP is talking about.

A branch of my family emigrated to England and never get talked about (compared to others living in America and Germany who are always talked about). I think it's mainly down to the fact that a lot of my family are these gob****e RSF types :rolleyes:


I would have an interesting "exotic" last name but my family had to change their name when they immigrated (it was a German name, but they were fleeing Germany) so now I just have my nice normal Irish name.

Ash.J.Williams

ha i love it!! I get so much stick for being a protestant (i'm a catholic) most people are surprised when they find out i'm not, due to my name. Never occurred to me that I was of foreign extract until later in life. It seems we moved over in the 1800's from possibly lancashire and availed of some cheap fertile land that was on offer!! Right ****ers!!

conchubhar1

hhm moved in the 1800's to cheap land and you were english

your family were planters

asdasd

your family were planters

Let's get over it.....

Ash.J.Williams

conchubhar1 wrote: »

hhm moved in the 1800's to cheap land and you were english

your family were planters

yeah i'd say they were awful feckers!!! Some of them availed of the local Womens too, hence my existance!!

conchubhar1

i wasnt being negative re the ''lets get over it''

CDfm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i wasnt being negative re the ''lets get over it''

tha Americans would call them carpetbaggers

conchubhar1

ye

anyway - irish registers wouldnt be as widespread anda ccurate as say english and american so that may be another reason for the lack of the english ancestor

IRISHSPORTSGUY

The people who lived in the Pale in the Middle Ages were 'Old English'.

grenache

markopantelic wrote: »

Why is this? Is it because many Irish names were anglicised so its kinda hard to distinguish between what is 'native' and 'foreign'?

This is the very reason. An example of this would be the surname 'Woods'. Now to any average person it would appear to be an English surname, yet because the Irish for Wood is 'coill' a number of Irish surnames with a component part sounding similar to coill, were anglicised as Woods.

CDfm

But some Christian names did come down the generations and you had very few Patricks in English families or Henrys in Irish families

gurramok

If our forefathers didn't drop the Irish language, perhaps we wouldn't have this confusion over surnames?(Woods etc)

CDfm

gurramok wrote: »

If our forefathers didn't drop the Irish language, perhaps we wouldn't have this confusion over surnames?(Woods etc)

I think you also had Anglisation that predated this too.

Careys changing their Name to Carew etc so the Anglicisation of names had many Irish adopting English names for convenience.

Affable

dubtom wrote: »

My surname is 'exotic' too.;)I know I have English ancestors because there is a place in england with the same name,which originated from a Norman (I think) with that particular name. The name in Ireland dates back to the 13th century,whether I'm a decendant of the original I don't know. In terms of claiming english ancestry,I'll have to admit it always had the nail on blackboard effect on me when brought up.

Oh wow. I have a norman surname, I'm English, but my name is one of the more common or most common English surnames in Ireland I believe. We may have the same name,

Affable

gurramok wrote: »

There are not many blondes(real undyed blonde hair types ) in the Irish population.

Cross the water to England(or NI) and they are everywhere. Somehow, i think most over here pre-EU immigration are descended from Normans/Vikings/English and they are normally found in urban areas.

It just so happens that urban areas seem to have the most anglicsed names as a proportion of the population, maybe of English ancestry, a co-incidence?

Now, where did the black hair/dark eyes section of the white population come from?

I know in Wales, the dark thing was to do with Spain and some invasions. Maybe that's the case with Ireland too.