Tempo Runs ?

Seres · 10-06-2009 1:38pm #1

ok , here is the situation , per my best recent 10k time of 40.30mins i should be running my tempo runs 25-30sec slower per mile ie 6min 50- 7min approx , however these runs are also suppose to be comfortably hard
If i am not comfortable at this calculated pace do i just run slower to maintain a comfortably hard pace ?, and how would you define comfortably hard if you dont have a HRM ?

shels4ever · 10-06-2009 1:45pm

hi there,
I think Tergat will give you a better answer to this, I can just speak from what I found. I started with my tempo runs in Feb and was doing about 7:40 pace which was about 30 second slower then my 4-5 mile race pace.

To start with I found them hard and would only manage 6-8 mins at this pace, I think a key to tempos is also progression over time, You can't jsut jump into 12-15 min tempo runs they will seem harder then races. Build up from shorter tempo runs at the correct pace.

How long are you running in your tempos?

Hope this help.

Just noticed your tempo run was 22 mins, I think thats too long and you would get more benifit out of 2X 10/12 min tempo runs with a 1/2 min rest/jog.

tergat · 10-06-2009 1:59pm

Seres wrote: »

ok , here is the situation , per my best recent 10k time of 40.30mins i should be running my tempo runs 25-30sec slower per mile ie 6min 50- 7min approx , however these runs are also suppose to be comfortably hard
If i am not comfortable at this calculated pace do i just run slower to maintain a comfortably hard pace ?, and how would you define comfortably hard if you dont have a HRM ?

Seres,

What is your current 5km PB and what do you think you could run for 5km right now today? Also what length were your tempo runs?

Give me those answers and ill give you my thoughts.

Tergat

Seres · 10-06-2009 2:02pm

shels4ever wrote: »

hi there,
I think Tergat will give you a better answer to this, I can just speak from what I found. I started with my tempo runs in Feb and was doing about 7:40 pace which was about 30 second slower then my 4-5 mile race pace.

To start with I found them hard and would only manage 6-8 mins at this pace, I think a key to tempos is also progression over time, You can't jsut jump into 12-15 min tempo runs they will seem harder then races. Build up from shorter tempo runs at the correct pace.

How long are you running in your tempos?

Hope this help.

Just noticed your tempo run was 22 mins, I think thats too long and you would get more benifit out of 2X 10/12 min tempo runs with a 1/2 min rest/jog.

thanks Shels , have been doing tempo runs ( or what i thought ) for the last 10/11weeks but i was doing them a*rse ways , so maybe then they dont constitute as tempo runs , i was just running them flat out and they were bout 4/5miles long :eek:
The 3 miles tempo run i did last night had too strong hills , i suppose this affected my time too

pgibbo · 10-06-2009 2:11pm

I do my tempo runs based on the FIRST plan. My 5k PB from a few weeks ago is 18:48. The tempo runs are of the nature 1m easy, 3 @ ST, 1m easy; 1m easy, 2m @ST, 1m easy, 2m @ ST, 1m easy. Many more of this nature on their training plans. I currently run ST at 6:20 pace. Not sure how that is but that's what the FIRST pace charts recommend. What do you think tergat?

Also, just curious, a lot of people on here have huge respect for your comments tergat, may I ask what you background is? Cheers.

christeb · 10-06-2009 2:15pm

pgibbo wrote: »

I do my tempo runs based on the FIRST plan. My 5k PB from a few weeks ago is 18:48. The tempo runs are of the nature 1m easy, 3 @ ST, 1m easy; 1m easy, 2m @ST, 1m easy, 2m @ ST, 1m easy. Many more of this nature on their training plans. I currently run ST at 6:20 pace. Not sure how that is but that's what the FIRST pace charts recommend. What do you think tergat?

Also, just curious, a lot of people on here have huge respect for your comments tergat, may I ask what you background is? Cheers.

Very interested in tergat's background also and find his comments extremely useful. I'd also like to but in as I'm a similar, possibly ever so slightly slower, than Seres. Planning on a 8m w/ 4 tempo @ ca. 6.55 tonight. My current 5k pb is 19.47 and I think I could probably run 19.30 now

Seres · 10-06-2009 2:49pm

tergat wrote: »

Seres,

What is your current 5km PB and what do you think you could run for 5km right now today? Also what length were your tempo runs?

Give me those answers and ill give you my thoughts.

Tergat

dont really know current 5km pb , ran 19.44 for first 5km of 10k race i ran a couple of weeks ago , think maybe could run 5km in 19.20.
tempo runs were ,up to recently 4 to 5 miles , flat out , but i think i was running them way too fast , started to shave them back to 3 miles the last few times
thanks again

Racing Flat · 10-06-2009 3:01pm

pgibbo wrote: »

Also, just curious, a lot of people on here have huge respect for your comments tergat, may I ask what you background is? Cheers.

christeb wrote: »

Very interested in tergat's background also and find his comments extremely useful.

tergat has put up his background previously but I can't remember in which thread? Can anyone remember? Save the duplication...

tergat · 10-06-2009 3:04pm

pgibbo wrote: »

I do my tempo runs based on the FIRST plan. My 5k PB from a few weeks ago is 18:48. The tempo runs are of the nature 1m easy, 3 @ ST, 1m easy; 1m easy, 2m @ST, 1m easy, 2m @ ST, 1m easy. Many more of this nature on their training plans. I currently run ST at 6:20 pace. Not sure how that is but that's what the FIRST pace charts recommend. What do you think tergat?

Also, just curious, a lot of people on here have huge respect for your comments tergat, may I ask what you background is? Cheers.

pgibbo,

RE Tempo running I'd rather a runner either run above anaerobic threshold (or LT) or below it. If you run above it, you actually, research from Canada in the late 1980s and early 1990s, improve it more, per unit time. That's right PER UNIT TIME. That is, if you are going to run 20 minutes at anaerobic threshold (LT) pace vs running 20 minutes at 2-5% above it, you'll get more improvements from the pace faster than AnT (LT). That's why CV Reps training is great - which is just a bit faster than AnT (LT).

Second, I'd rather you run below AnT (LT) for a much longer time - hence the longer Tempo which is lower by about 5 percent than Jack Daniels original tempo pace (5km pace + 20-25 secs). Look at the endurance aspect of running tempos further. Shifts in endurance seem to occur more with longer tempos at slower paces.

LT (Jack Daniels orignal tempo pace) is fine - a useufl tool. CV is fine too - a useful tool. A foreighn coach told me once you do get double the benefit, research shows he said, by running above LT by 2-4% - just where CV is located. So, if you run 6 km of CV, it's like running 12km of LT, if lactate threshold is your focus. If you want to extend endurance more, then LT with more reps and more distance is better- but even better is long Tempo pace. That is why I mostly schedule workouts above LT and below LT.

But, long Tempo does some other things - like enhances maximum fat utlization rate - a key for sparing glycogen for fast running or long sustained running - as in the half-marathon or marathon.

It is perfectly fine to use LT reps, too. Any of the three are good training tools. I just tend to schedule a longer, slower tempo run and an aerobic interval workout that is faster than LT by about 2.5 percent (CV Reps). The long Tempo should not be replaced in most cases, or at least done every other week during base training. Still, I believe a weekly long Tempo is the best training tool for base training, overall, besides the long run - which also affects lactate threshold - through the backdoor. You can do shorter LT intervals (3*8 mins etc) or traditional Jack Daniels tempos after the base phase.

For those using HR monitors chek out the following. Heart rate varies, depending weather, fatigue, hydration status, and fitness level, so no perfect answer exists. However, here are some general guidelines:

Recovery (Slow) = about 72% HR max (your current max)
Easy = about 77% of max
Tempo = about 85% of max
Threshold - about 90% of max
CV = about 92.5% of max
VO2 max = about 96-97% of max.

Try CV reps once a week you will see the difference. For you running lets say 18.45 right now CV pace is 6.15 per mile/3.53 per km. Also your longer tempo would be 6.52 per mile/4.16 per km. Long temp is roughly 5km pace per mile + 45-55 secs and can be done for 3-6 miles depending on ability. CV pace is 5km pace per km + 8-12 secs. Remember always us CURRENT pace not GOAL pace.

Re my backround I am a young coach learning my trade but have been very fortunate to meet and talk with a lot of knowledgeable coaches both in Ireland and abroad at meets. Currently an AAI level 3 coach and coach 6 Irish international distance athletes ranging from 15-21 years of age. I coach some schools athletes also which is a great learning curve as well as some older guys. Love this sport and never get involved in the politics of it, just want to coach.

Tergat

tergat · 10-06-2009 3:14pm

Seres wrote: »

dont really know current 5km pb , ran 19.44 for first 5km of 10k race i ran a couple of weeks ago , think maybe could run 5km in 19.20.
tempo runs were ,up to recently 4 to 5 miles , flat out , but i think i was running them way too fast , started to shave them back to 3 miles the last few times
thanks again

seres,

Check oou the post above re Tempos. For a 19.30 5km runner the following paces apply:
CV Reps- 6.28 per mile/4.02 per km
Short Temp0 (3-4 miles or 2*2 miles)- About 6.45-6.50
Long Tempo (4-6 miles)- 7.07 per mile/4.26 per km
Easy/Rec- 8.20-9.20 per mile

Try CV workout of 5-6*1km in 4.00-4.05 with 90 secs jog recovery followed by 4*200m@current 1500m-3000m pace with 200m slow jog recovery.

Tergat

Sub430 · 10-06-2009 3:37pm

Racing Flat wrote: »

tergat has put up his background previously but I can't remember in which thread? Can anyone remember? Save the duplication...

Found it.

No problem I hope the information helps. My backround is simple:
-I have been involved in athletics since the age of 12, average national level runner and started coaching at 20, currently approaching the 30 barrier (:
-Currently coach 5 Irish Junior & 1 u23 International distance runners, some seniors plus a great bunch of younger athletes 13-18 years old, a pleasure to work with and the only thing that keeps me going through the bad times in this sport.
-Love the sport and love continuing to gain more knowledge and experience which all coaches should never forget, in my opinion. I have picked the brains of many coaches both here and abroad at meets which has helped.

Tergat

cfitz · 10-06-2009 3:52pm

Tergat, I always get into a bit of a muddle when I try to work out percentage paces etc. Was hoping you could have a quick look at this particular workout.

I am currently training for 3000m, my PB is 9:19 and I've run 9:24 this season. Most weeks I do a 45 min hard run. On a very good day I will cover about 12km starting at about 6:35/mile pace and finishing at about 6:00/mile pace.

Do these kind of runs correspond with any of the sessions that you have described above?

Thanks!

tergat · 10-06-2009 4:15pm

cfitz wrote: »

Tergat, I always get into a bit of a muddle when I try to work out percentage paces etc. Was hoping you could have a quick look at this particular workout.

I am currently training for 3000m, my PB is 9:19 and I've run 9:24 this season. Most weeks I do a 45 min hard run. On a very good day I will cover about 12km starting at about 6:35/mile pace and finishing at about 6:00/mile pace.

Do these kind of runs correspond with any of the sessions that you have described above?

Thanks!

cfitz,

Always remember that it doesnt always have to be HARD to be beneficial. For trying to improve your 3000m time you will need to incorporate the following:
1) Some race specific work at CURRENT 3km pace try the following progression over 6-10 weeks:
15-16*200m @ 3k race pace with 100m jog recovery in 30 secs
8-10*400 @ 3k race pace with 200m jog rec in 60 secs
6*600m @ 3k race pace with 200m jog rec in 90 secs
5*800m @ 3k race pace with 200m jog rec in 2 mins

Another one with a mix of paces:
2 x 1600m at CV pace, jog 200m,
2 x 1200 at 10k, jog 400,
2 x 1000 at 5k, jog 200 slowly,
1 x 800 at 3k, jog 400,
2 x 300 at 1500, jog 300.

2) Weekly Long Run over hills

3) SOME, not a lot, of workouts at 1500m pace for example:
10-14*200m @ goal 1500m pace with 30-60 secs jog rec.
6-8*400m @ goal 1500m pace with 200m jog rec in 90 secs working recovery down to 60 secs eventually.
4*600m @ goal 1500m pace with 3 mins jog rec.
3*800m @ goal 1500m pace with 3 mins jog rec.

4) Weekly CV rep workout or Long Tempo see previous posts for details. Long temp is roughly 5km pace per mile + 45-55 secs and can be done for 3-6 miles depending on ability. CV pace is 5km pace per km + 8-12 secs. About 6-7km worth of reps with 90secs jog rec is good for you. Remember always use CURRENT pace not GOAL pace. Just work out what you think you can run for 5km right now and sort paces from there.

5) Fill in the rest with easy running and 2 sets of 6-8*100m strides.

Dont forget to always listen to your body and run by feel also.

Tergat

cfitz · 10-06-2009 5:03pm

Thanks Tergat.

Got the calculator out and it seems that the average pace for that run is about the same as the Long Tempo pace that you suggest - but I'm doing about 7.5 miles rather than 3-6 miles.

You say that you've had a lot of contact with other coaches around the world. The more I read about training methods the more it seems that most good coaches/athletes are working off similar training principles. I haven't read that much, but the training in your posts seem fairly similar to what McMillan and Daniels might talk about. Cenova is one of the few top coaches that I'm aware of that seems to suggest training that is very different to the kind of stuff you're talking about.

So, my question is, have you met many coaches that had an entirely different outlook on training yet were very successful?

By the way, just wanted to take the opportunity to say thanks for all the advice you give here. You present everything really clearly and it's great to have the assistance of someone with such a good understanding.

tergat · 10-06-2009 5:39pm

cfitz wrote: »

Thanks Tergat.

Got the calculator out and it seems that the average pace for that run is about the same as the Long Tempo pace that you suggest - but I'm doing about 7.5 miles rather than 3-6 miles.

You say that you've had a lot of contact with other coaches around the world. The more I read about training methods the more it seems that most good coaches/athletes are working off similar training principles. I haven't read that much, but the training in your posts seem fairly similar to what McMillan and Daniels might talk about. Cenova is one of the few top coaches that I'm aware of that seems to suggest training that is very different to the kind of stuff you're talking about.

So, my question is, have you met many coaches that had an entirely different outlook on training yet were very successful?

By the way, just wanted to take the opportunity to say thanks for all the advice you give here. You present everything really clearly and it's great to have the assistance of someone with such a good understanding.

cfitz,

I think you have three types of ways to train for distance running:
1) Big Mileage
2) Little mileage, lots quality work
3) A suitable amount of mileage for the individual with some judiciously spaced out workouts

I follow number 3. I believe in having a strong aerobic system and stressing the body in small doses with harder workouts/races. I believe in consistant training overtime with the focus on remaining injury free and illness free. If you can do this, no matter who you are you will improve. It is the safe route. Route 1 and 2 lead to more injuries and broken periods of training in my experience.

I coach a kid who is now in 3rd year in secondary school. In Nov 2007 in 1st year he ran 8.20 for a timed mile on the track in a race. He was over weight, shy, had no talent but had the heart of a lion. He has trained consistantly since staying within his personal limits and in May 2009 he ran 5.30 for the mile. An incredible feat, if you saw this guy when he first started. If this guy can improve like that that anybody can. This guy is now lean, confident and winning medals here and there. I got more of a buzz watching him run that mile PB than having an athlete win an All-Ireland title because he worked damn hard for it.

I have read books and met coaches who follow the 1st route and have success. The same can be said for the 2nd route. The point being it depends on the individual athlete, their circumstances, injury history, time for training, motivation etc etc

Tergat

Sosa · 10-06-2009 8:40pm

tergat wrote: »

seres,

Check oou the post above re Tempos. For a 19.30 5km runner the following paces apply:
CV Reps- 6.28 per mile/4.02 per km
Short Temp0 (3-4 miles or 2*2 miles)- About 6.45-6.50
Long Tempo (4-6 miles)- 7.07 per mile/4.26 per km
Easy/Rec- 8.20-9.20 per mile

Try CV workout of 5-6*1km in 4.00-4.05 with 90 secs jog recovery followed by 4*200m@current 1500m-3000m pace with 200m slow jog recovery.

Tergat

Hello Tergat,
I was wondering could you advise me on my tempos also.
I ran a 23:15 4m recently,have never ran 5k but when i do,i am aiming for sub 18,My tempos usually consist of either a 6m or 8m run with 4 @ 6:20 Pace.I know some people think that is long but i was encouraged by your comments on marathon runners benifiting from longer tempos ( i am doing Dublin this year )
Al advice appreciated

tergat · 10-06-2009 9:00pm

Sosa wrote: »

Hello Tergat,
I was wondering could you advise me on my tempos also.
I ran a 23:15 4m recently,have never ran 5k but when i do,i am aiming for sub 18,My tempos usually consist of either a 6m or 8m run with 4 @ 6:20 Pace.I know some people think that is long but i was encouraged by your comments on marathon runners benifiting from longer tempos ( i am doing Dublin this year )
Al advice appreciated

Sosa,

Your 23.15 equates to a 17.40-17.50 5km roughly. For a 17.45 5km guy the following a rough training paces:
Easy pace- 7.40 per mile +
CV pace- 5.55 per mile
Long Tempo (4-6 miles)- 6.30 per mile

You will get a lot more benefit doing longer tempos for the marathon, all you have to do is just slow down the pace. The following workout is very specific to the marathon:
2-5 miles easy, 4-6 miles long tempo at 6.30-6.35 for you, 2-4 miles easy. Do this once a week and your long run (adding some MP stuff at the end of it) and you will run well. Also run on hills for specific leg strength.

I’ve never believed that high mileage is necessarily the best way to train for marathons. Though mileage builds aerobic capacity, it is not specific. Long Workouts, on the other hand, are specific. They simulate the demands of the event. That’s the key! I have saved this stuff becauase it comes up time and time again.

Long workouts vary in length or duration relative to a runner’s ability and experience, but generally “Long” means at least 80-90 minutes of continuous running. When you run more than 90 minutes three important elements of exercise physiology are improved: glycogen storing, fat burning, and shock absorption. This doesn’t even include the mental elements: relaxation while tired, concentration, and tenacity.

Tergat

Sosa · 10-06-2009 9:08pm

Thanks Tergat,
I am surprised that the pace is 6:30/6:35...but i have no idea,so i will take it on board.
I am doing the P&D up to 55m program for the marathon.
I do quite a few MP runs already...i officially start marathon training on June 22nd...and will do the tempos as you pointed out.
Its handy,because i can do 6m/8m or 10m and still get the tempo done.
Thanks again

ss43 · 10-06-2009 9:47pm

tergat wrote: »

For those using HR monitors ...

VO2 max = about 96-97% of max.

Would VO2 max not require max Heart Rate? Would the maximum volume of oxygen your lungs can take in not coincide with the maximum your heart can pump?

tergat · 10-06-2009 10:15pm

ss43 wrote: »

Would VO2 max not require max Heart Rate? Would the maximum volume of oxygen your lungs can take in not coincide with the maximum your heart can pump?

ss43,

When I mentioned 96-97% of Max HR it relates the the rough training zone one would use for vo2 max interval training. With this sort of training we are not trying to be at our max hr, this would only be the case if doing a treadmill test to determine a vo2 max value.

RE HR Max, it varies amongst groups of people and tends to be influenced by age. It lowers when chronic fatigue sets in, for example when stores of glycogen are low. High volumes of training or even hard interval training will wipe out glycogen stores and thus lower current maximum heart rate a few beats.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Tergat

ss43 · 10-06-2009 10:34pm

tergat wrote: »

ss43,

When I mentioned 96-97% of Max HR it relates the the rough training zone one would use for vo2 max interval training. With this sort of training we are not trying to be at our max hr, this would only be the case if doing a treadmill test to determine a vo2 max value.

RE HR Max, it varies amongst groups of people and tends to be influenced by age. It lowers when chronic fatigue sets in, for example when stores of glycogen are low. High volumes of training or even hard interval training will wipe out glycogen stores and thus lower current maximum heart rate a few beats.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Tergat

I see how you can use values slightly lower and still get a training effect but I don't see why the zone should end before max HR.

I would have thought that if my VO2 max pace is 3mins/km:
1) running at this pace would bring about max HR
2) running at this pace would have a positive effect on my V02 max pace.

On that basis I don't see why the training zone for VO2 max would stop before max HR. I would have thought 95-100% of HR would be appropriate. I'm open to ccorrection though.

tergat · 11-06-2009 8:25pm

ss43 wrote: »

I see how you can use values slightly lower and still get a training effect but I don't see why the zone should end before max HR.

I would have thought that if my VO2 max pace is 3mins/km:
1) running at this pace would bring about max HR
2) running at this pace would have a positive effect on my V02 max pace.

On that basis I don't see why the training zone for VO2 max would stop before max HR. I would have thought 95-100% of HR would be appropriate. I'm open to ccorrection though.

ss43,

I think you have misunderstood me maybe. I never said that the zone ends at any stage, it is just more productive to run at roughly 95-97% of max hr for workouts. Running at max hr in training is not very beneficial and will lead to fatigue/injury.

Tergat

Tempo Runs ?

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