advice on trying to fix my game

scrubber72 · 10-06-2009 12:58pm #1

hi boardies,
Just wondering if you can help me out. Off 19 since forever. Have a good short game and anything inside 150mts aint really a problem. It just seems that my driving gets me into trouble (big slice and only hit it about 200-220mts). I have had plenty of lessons know all the physics behind it but the body just wont repeat it and like a lot of people it stays for about 2 hours with the pro but goes as quick as it comes

. I try 3 woods off the tees but that only leaves me to far back for approach shots. So I reckon the question I have is A. do i try and go for more lessons or B stick it out with what i got and just work my way around the course hoping that one day it will come together and i might just score above my handicap.Thanks

BUACHAILL · 10-06-2009 1:01pm

If your aim is to get handicap down just use your irons off the tee especially if your good from 150 yards and in you should focus getting the ball to the 150 marker , its only a quick fix and not the answer

If its for your sanity and good of your game persist with Driver till you get confident enough to hit it every time but iron off the tee will reduce handicap

ShriekingSheet · 10-06-2009 1:07pm

BUACHAILL wrote: »

iron off the tee will reduce handicap

Couldn't disagree more mate. From the many higher h'cap players I know, longer irons are not trusty fall-back clubs. IMO, they introduce a new risk of a duff, or complete miss-hit, neither of which are as much of a threat when using a large titanium driver. And the distance lost is likely to mean another long iron required to the green.

Iron-off-the-tee = safety is a myth amateur golfers have picked up from watching pros at the top of their game use 2 irons etc on tight holes - especially at a time when driver heads were small, steel-shafted, even wooden - much, much more difficult to use than todays's drivers. When mastered, a long iron can of course provide a safer option to a driver. But the skill (wide sweeping arc, club head speed etc) reuired to master this shot, and play it consistently is far beyond the compass of most amateurs, let alone high handicap players.

Put bluntly, if you handed someone who never played golf a 3 iron and a big titanium driver and asked them which would be easier to use, which do you think they would choose?

Whyner · 10-06-2009 1:11pm

scrubber72 wrote: »

hi boardies,
Just wondering if you can help me out. Off 19 since forever. Have a good short game and anything inside 150mts aint really a problem. It just seems that my driving gets me into trouble (big slice and only hit it about 200-220mts). I have had plenty of lessons know all the physics behind it but the body just wont repeat it and like a lot of people it stays for about 2 hours with the pro but goes as quick as it comes. I try 3 woods off the tees but that only leaves me to far back for approach shots. So I reckon the question I have is A. do i try and go for more lessons or B stick it out with what i got and just work my way around the course hoping that one day it will come together and i might just score above my handicap.Thanks

Why do you slice the ball? Do you have an out-in swing? What do your divots look like?

If I was you I'd get it fixed. I got my slice fixed and it wasn't that hard. Did you try a different instructor? When you start hitting straight drives it will be worth it.

If you isolate your problem then there will be specific drills to cure your slice...

BUACHAILL · 10-06-2009 1:27pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more mate. From the many higher h'cap players I know, longer irons are not trusty fall-back clubs. IMO, they introduce a new risk of a duff, or complete miss-hit, neither of which are as much of a threat when using a large titanium driver. And the distance lost is likely to mean another long iron required to the green.

Iron-off-the-tee = safety is a myth amateur golfers have picked up from watching pros at the top of their game use 2 irons etc on tight holes - especially at a time when driver heads were small, steel-shafted, even wooden - much, much more difficult to use than todays's drivers. When mastered, a long iron can of course provide a safer option to a driver. But the skill (wide sweeping arc, club head speed etc) reuired to master this shot, and play it consistently is far beyond the compass of most amateurs, let alone high handicap players.

Put bluntly, if you handed someone who never played golf a 3 iron and a big titanium driver and asked them which would be easier to use, which do you think they would choose?

I have assumed from his post that he is a strong iron player, maybe I shouldnt have.

I do agree with everything you have just said and of course the driver is easier to master than the long iron. I was coming from a course management side of the game. If he cant get himself into position with the driver and is costing himself 2-3 extra shots getting out of rough etc , surely he is better to take the trusted 6-7 iron(if he cant hit long irons) and take two shots to get to the 150 marker. he has stated from there he is good so assuming he makes 5-6 pars and the rest bogeys from this position his handicap will surely reduce.

I know its not the answer to his long term game but it sounds like the guy just wants to get his handicap down, of course it will greatly reduce at a much faster rate if he masters the driver.

scrubber72 · 10-06-2009 1:38pm

sorry if i have miss lead anyone about my op. My biggest problem is driving. I have had a least 8 or 9 lessons from 3 different pros and all just try and change my swing with only using irons hence my irons are good and i can get up and down a lot of times so my short game is quiet good. finding greens in regulation is the problem and i know its cause i am so far back off the tee. Thanks again guys for the input

ShriekingSheet · 10-06-2009 1:45pm

BUACHAILL wrote: »

I have assumed from his post that he is a strong iron player, maybe I shouldnt have.

I do agree with everything you have just said and of course the driver is easier to master than the long iron. I was coming from a course management side of the game. If he cant get himself into position with the driver and is costing himself 2-3 extra shots getting out of rough etc , surely he is better to take the trusted 6-7 iron(if he cant hit long irons) and take two shots to get to the 150 marker. he has stated from there he is good so assuming he makes 5-6 pars and the rest bogeys from this position his handicap will surely reduce.

I know its not the answer to his long term game but it sounds like the guy just wants to get his handicap down, of course it will greatly reduce at a much faster rate if he masters the driver.

Well no, on the basis that the vast majority of bad drives on par 4s could be chipped out of trouble to the 150 stick, could they not? And, best case scenario, the good and okay drives present the opportunity to hit the green in regulation, or close to it.

By taking an iron, the best case scenario is getting to the 150 stick in two - this is similar to a poor scenario with the driver (sliced to the trees and chipped out to the 150 stick).

In rare cases, such a Milltown or City West Lakes, I'd agree with you. Because the courses are very short a quite tight. But on the whole I think better advice would be as follows...

Practice
- get a lesson specifically on driving from the pro you like the moest. Take one, or maximum of two main points from the lesson. Focus exclusively on these points and ignore all other lessons from the past and suggestions and anything youve read in Golf Monthly. They key is clarity and simplicity. I suggest your aim would be to make your worst shots better- a leaking cut rather than a huge slice, and your good ones a nice fade. (you're not trying to hit a high draw!)

Play
- use the shape of shot you know you have. Aim every drive specifically down the left edge of every fairway. If the rough is light or there's not much trouble left, aim even in the left rough. Chances are you'll cut it into the fairway and it will take a huge slice to hit it into trouble right. The odd pull or hook might hurt you but these, i assume are rare.

The above two points are very straightforward but should give you the best possible chance to score with the game you have.

slingerz · 10-06-2009 2:09pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Well no, on the basis that the vast majority of bad drives on par 4s could be chipped out of trouble to the 150 stick, could they not? And, best case scenario, the good and okay drives present the opportunity to hit the green in regulation, or close to it.

By taking an iron, the best case scenario is getting to the 150 stick in two - this is similar to a poor scenario with the driver (sliced to the trees and chipped out to the 150 stick).

In rare cases, such a Milltown or City West Lakes, I'd agree with you. Because the courses are very short a quite tight. But on the whole I think better advice would be as follows...

Practice
- get a lesson specifically on driving from the pro you like the moest. Take one, or maximum of two main points from the lesson. Focus exclusively on these points and ignore all other lessons from the past and suggestions and anything youve read in Golf Monthly. They key is clarity and simplicity. I suggest your aim would be to make your worst shots better- a leaking cut rather than a huge slice, and your good ones a nice fade. (you're not trying to hit a high draw!)

Play
- use the shape of shot you know you have. Aim every drive specifically down the left edge of every fairway. If the rough is light or there's not much trouble left, aim even in the left rough. Chances are you'll cut it into the fairway and it will take a huge slice to hit it into trouble right. The odd pull or hook might hurt you but these, i assume are rare.

The above two points are very straightforward but should give you the best possible chance to score with the game you have.

I disagree. I think he should place the ball on the right hand side and aim into the slice. I can guarantee his body will correct that slice.

Alternatively placing his back foot perhaps half a step back will cause him to turn the shot over in the manner of a draw.

BUACHAILL · 10-06-2009 2:27pm

Sheet,

yeah I can relate and agree with some of that

However as we all know its not always just a matter of a chip out. If it was we would all be pro's. What about the out of bounds ?? lost balls ?? etc etc

Agree totally on your advice on dealing with his problem head on and also agree that on longer holes an iron simply isnt enough, however I also find I sometimes take my driver on holes were an iron is more than enough...bad management on my behalf

scrubber72 · 10-06-2009 2:28pm

? dont understand your rational about a step back or aiming into the slice

Whyner · 10-06-2009 2:38pm

scrubber72 wrote: »

? dont understand your rational about a step back or aiming into the slice

taking a step back encourages you to swing from the inside

A good drill I did was to line up square and aim straight ahead but hit the ball towards 2 o'clock

ShriekingSheet · 10-06-2009 2:40pm

slingerz wrote: »

I disagree. I think he should place the ball on the right hand side and aim into the slice. I can guarantee his body will correct that slice.

Alternatively placing his back foot perhaps half a step back will cause him to turn the shot over in the manner of a draw.

That'll completely work.
on paper.

scrubber72 wrote: »

? dont understand your rational about a step back or aiming into the slice

That's probably a good thing...

ShriekingSheet · 10-06-2009 2:45pm

BUACHAILL wrote: »

Sheet,

yeah I can relate and agree with some of that

However as we all know its not always just a matter of a chip out. If it was we would all be pro's. What about the out of bounds ?? lost balls ?? etc etc

Agree totally on your advice on dealing with his problem head on and also agree that on longer holes an iron simply isnt enough, however I also find I sometimes take my driver on holes were an iron is more than enough...bad management on my behalf

Fair enough but if you couple it with better aiming of the driver, as I outlined, the miss will be safer. Sure, there'll be holes where OB really does beckon, and I agree, a shorter club such as a rescue/hybrid or something the guy is comfortable with could well be the way to go.

In truth, what we've touched on here is the discipline it can take to get better scores out of your game in a) chipping out instead of going for big recovery shots and b) making it your game plan to hit tougher holes in three shorter shots and rule out a big number.

BUACHAILL · 10-06-2009 3:00pm

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Fair enough but if you couple it with better aiming of the driver, as I outlined, the miss will be safer. Sure, there'll be holes where OB really does beckon, and I agree, a shorter club such as a rescue/hybrid or something the guy is comfortable with could well be the way to go.

In truth, what we've touched on here is the discipline it can take to get better scores out of your game in a) chipping out instead of going for big recovery shots and b) making it your game plan to hit tougher holes in three shorter shots and rule out a big number.

Yeah its all about your course management

davgtrek · 10-06-2009 3:01pm

Couple of things.

1. forget about irons off tees. It like a previous poster said is a myth.
Even for a reasonable iron player off a tee they will think about "yards lost" by not using a wood and try to strike it harder and more often than not make a mess of it.
Use a wood !!! See point 3

2. nearly everyone from 14-20+ hcaps slice the ball off tee.
I don't know anyone who hits it straight and to draw the ball your into a better swing area that is rare enough in higher hcaps.
So try to bring your slice back to a fade and work with that.
Most dog leg holes are set up for faders anyway etc.

3. stick with a wood off the tee.
In fact I would drop your driver and give a 3 wood a go for a few weeks.
More people should be using 3 woods off tee's as you WILL hit way more fairways... This outweighs losing a few yards.
If you are good from 150 in then think " hit the fairway" and not worry about slice or yardage.

4. Don't bother with 3 or 4 irons or even 5 irons. Take em out of the bag and replace them with a utility wood or two.

5. ignore all the standard GC banter about yardage off tees and magazines "grip it and rip it" nonsense and focus on becoming a "consistent & reliable player" your h-cap will come down.
Consistently hitting it 180 yds onto fairway, second shot somewhere down beside green and taking your chances at an up & down or tap in bogey will make you a better golfer quicker than ripping every other 280yd drive into the rough stuff.....

jimbling · 10-06-2009 3:05pm

I used to have a really bad slice in my drive.

I have changed so much that it's hard to say what fixed it. There's a few things that I felt had the biggest impacts on the slice issue:
The Grip
A few subtle changes a pro made to my grip.
Rotated my left hand slightly clockwise. (the two/three visible knuckle shift)
Rotated my right hand slightly anti-clockwise to wrap firmly on the left.
Kept both hands much closer. Not sure what I mean by that but basically my grip was too spread out on the club. Thumbs stretched down the shaft etc.

Shows it pretty well in this video
Basically, my grip was way too open and loose.

The Right Foot
Straightening my back foot. This was something that had an immediate impact with regards the slice.
I used to have both feet open. Keeping the back foot straight..i.e. right angle to the line the club is going to take does a number of things. It forces you to come around the ball a bit more, but more importantly it forces the weight distribution to the back foot to be much smoother. i.e. sets the weight on the ball of the foot rather than the heel.
This actually turned out to be the main problem with my drive in the last week. Weight distribution and the timing of it is key to a straight drive.

The Swing Plane and alignment
Obviously this is probably the biggest reason someone hooks or slices. By slightly modifying your swing plane and alignment you should be able to move from a straight drive to a fade and back to a draw. I haven't mastered it yet, but on the way.

Take a look at the perfect swing video. He also has videos specifically for slicing if you just want to counteract it.

On a good day my drive is now a slight draw. I have knocked 20% effort off my swing but still get the same, or more, distance. I can also shift it to a fade when required.
On a good day

At the end of the day you may already be doing all of the above, and more. It's all down to you figuring it out yourself. If you can't you'll have to deal with it as the lads mentioned. Use the 3wood. Honestly, majority of holes you should be able to get the distance required with that club anyway.

Take this advice at your peril...... all this is coming from a 22 handicapper :rolleyes:

jimbling · 10-06-2009 3:12pm

You mentioned in the front post that your drive is 200/220m. That seems pretty short.
I came across this video the other day and only then realised that I had been hitting the ball on the downswing, or just after.
I tried this out yesterday and my drive suddenly had an extra 30y on average.
In the range I normally average 250. With this stance I was hitting the sweet spot more regularly and getting an average of 275+.

This may apply for your 3wood also... if you want to get further distance.

Btw, I am 5' 10" and skinny... it aint strength that gets the ball that far :rolleyes:

BUACHAILL · 10-06-2009 3:59pm

davgtrek wrote: »

Couple of things.

1. forget about irons off tees. It like a previous poster said is a myth.
Even for a reasonable iron player off a tee they will think about "yards lost" by not using a wood and try to strike it harder and more often than not make a mess of it.
Use a wood !!! See point 3

2. nearly everyone from 14-20+ hcaps slice the ball off tee.
I don't know anyone who hits it straight and to draw the ball your into a better swing area that is rare enough in higher hcaps.
So try to bring your slice back to a fade and work with that.
Most dog leg holes are set up for faders anyway etc.

3. stick with a wood off the tee.
In fact I would drop your driver and give a 3 wood a go for a few weeks.
More people should be using 3 woods off tee's as you WILL hit way more fairways... This outweighs losing a few yards.
If you are good from 150 in then think " hit the fairway" and not worry about slice or yardage.

4. Don't bother with 3 or 4 irons or even 5 irons. Take em out of the bag and replace them with a utility wood or two.

5. ignore all the standard GC banter about yardage off tees and magazines "grip it and rip it" nonsense and focus on becoming a "consistent & reliable player" your h-cap will come down.
Consistently hitting it 180 yds onto fairway, second shot somewhere down beside green and taking your chances at an up & down or tap in bogey will make you a better golfer quicker than ripping every other 280yd drive into the rough stuff.....

I dont even know where to start on some of these:

All I can say is your assuming an awful lot with your percentage of slicers, yardages etc. For a start I hit my 6 Iron 180 yards and always did even at a high handicap and never had a slice. my 4 iron I hit 210 yards giver or take and I am not that low a handicap.. play off 9. If I went around with only a 7 iron in my bag and a putter I could play to 12-13 handicap so I dont think its a hard fast rule that you should not hit irons off the tee. The guy is confident with irons so always play to your strengths.

As for drop your driver and get an 3 wood, is this not still avoiding the problem ?? sounds the same as using an iron... he is still not meeting his problem head on, he will need to improve his driver at some stage.

I agree with some of your points but you generalise far too much and people of all different handicaps have different strength's, I feel you should always play to them and his irons are his.

davgtrek · 10-06-2009 4:23pm

I was generalizing to make a point & the yardage figures were the same. his strengths are from 150 in and he is confident in that dept. he did make the point that he is only hitting it 200-220 off tee and seemed to think this was a big issue along with his slice.

so he may be a dab hand with a 7 iron up but doesn't mean he will ever be a good low iron player as they are poles apart in my view.

so we need to get him fairly consistently to that comfort zone.
in my view by taming the slice and banging them 200+ onto the fairway he is well on the way.

I have a friend who is handy enough off 14 but will always say he hits a pw 140 yards and all this stuff. the funny thing is when ever i played with him he wouldn't hit it within an asses roar of that but he was so maxed out on every swing if it paid off great but if not wipe out.

the best players i know who will be in the top 10 golfers of the year points each year are not big hitters at all. They are simply fairly consistent. they dont worry about yardage. one guy bangs a rescue wood all day from fairways and a few tees and he's a popular choice on any winter league team.....

for OP i would fear that introducing irons into t shots will knock his confidence with them and probably ruin his 150 yards in mojo...
a utility/rescue wood or 3 wood off tee will hit it higher and reduce the slice from a driver.

thats a start

stockdam · 10-06-2009 8:35pm

I'd tend to agree that using a big headed driver is a bit easier than hitting an iron from the tee.

To stop a slice you really need to learn how to hit a draw. In my opinion a good teacher will be able to do that in a lesson........most of it is grip, alignment and swing plane. Or if you want there are probably some useful videos on Youtube that tell you how to setup for a draw.

kagni · 10-06-2009 8:39pm

slingerz wrote: »

I disagree. I think he should place the ball on the right hand side and aim into the slice. I can guarantee his body will correct that slice.

Alternatively placing his back foot perhaps half a step back will cause him to turn the shot over in the manner of a draw.

I'd agree with most of this, aiming further to the left just causes more of an out to in swing and a worse slice.

I've struggled with a slice for years, only in the last year or two have I got control of it and I've gained a lot of distance in the process.
To lessen my slice I aim the clubface at the point I want the ball to end up, I line up with my body aimed more to the right (shoulders and feet pointing slightly right of target line). The most important thing then is to swing the club to the right, you will end up hitting a lot straighter, maybe even a draw, (in fact I find picturing a draw before I swing helps me).

Get a picture in your mind of swinging like the top picture below, not the bottom one...

PeterJamesDoyle · 10-06-2009 9:04pm

Hi,
A lot of the problems with current drivers is the length. Most male golfers should have a driver length of minimum of 44 and 1/2 inches. 45 Inches is OK once you don't go above that. All golfers are buying rack clubs and hitting them maybe 20 to 30 yards further, but at the expense of accuracy. I'm playing off 8 and always considered myself OK at iron play, but like yourself, my driving was poor.
So I trimmed back my 10.5 Degree driver to 44.75". I tipped the shaft by about 3/4". I gained more control as a result. Now of course, I hit the ball a little higher, but I'm in the fairway more often that my colleagues. Hope this is of some help, any questions please don't hesitate to contact me.

sabbath · 10-06-2009 9:27pm

I have been there done that, lessons, advice on stance, swing, clubs, just about everything you can think of but to no avail so I went to the practise range with just my woods and developed a swing that worked for me. It took a good few visits but it worked and I dropped from 18 to 10. One thing I did conciously focus on was my downswing and follow through.

advice on trying to fix my game

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