The Bike To Work Scheme

Sponge Bob

Eamon Ryan has fostered a bizarre green energy economy since he took over the wood pellet brief in 2007 ( Noel Dempsey initially created it) .

The lunatic economics of wood pelletry have now spread to the bike to work scheme .

Astrofool has made a very good point about this tax break in this post here

On the bike scheme, it should have been implemented thusly:
Person buys a bike.
Person has receipt (verified independently if needed, like any tax audit).
Person fills in amount on their tax return, it's counted as a credit (up to €1000), and gets the tax back.
Person can't claim again for 5 years.

Perfectly reasonable. Maybe get Revenue to check a sample every now and then ( at WORK and on a DRY DAY ) to ensure compliance .

This is what the greens actually did . Again from Astrofool .

What happened was:
Person wants a bike
Person checks to see if their company is in the scheme (or if self employed, goes to the hassle of signing up to the scheme).
Person goes and finds the bike they want, haggles the price to whatever.
Person does not buy the bike.
Person goes to "The Company" with the quote.
Company checks if the bike seller is on the approved list.
If not on the approved list, they try to get them added to the approved list.
Assume success, company applies for a voucher to that amount from the scheme.
Voucher arrives, person takes voucher and then buys the bike.
Company charges the employee in each salary (if they're on PAYE) until the bike is paid off.

Now, what kind of braindead moron do you think thought up that rigmarole?

A Green thought it up .

It is generally possible to buy the SAME bike ONLINE and ASSEMBLED for less than the 'approved seller' sells it and the tax break combined .

If you buy a bike for €1000 off the approved sellers and you get tax relief @ 21% then the net cost of the bike is €790 . However the approved sellers up their margin by 25% so you are no better off. You can actually get most of those bikes ( assembled and delivered) for less than €790 ONLINE .

Same applies to wood pellet boilers, they gouge the full grant off you by increasing the price. You are as better off buying them from Finland and Germany .

And they wonder why they have no councillors ????

crocro

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If you buy a bike for €1000 off the approved sellers and you get tax relief @ 21% then the net cost of the bike is €790 . However the approved sellers up their margin by 25% so you are no better off. You can actually get most of those bikes ( assembled and delivered) for less than €790 ONLINE .

It is most valuable if you are on higher rate tax when you save 47% and your employer saves 10.75%. i think you forgot that employee PRSI and levies are also refundable. also employers prsi at up to 10.75%.

There are over 50 bike shops in the scheme and several of them do mail order.

I think your contention is that 50 bike shops around the country have colluded to raise their prices by 25%. Presumably they arranged this at the last meeting of the trilateral commission or the bilderberg group.

I see this thread as part two of 'Eamon Ryan wants to turn the phoenix park tunnel into a cycle path'. I presume Eamon Ryan has pissed you off big time about something in the past. Maybe you'd like to share it with the group?

Sponge Bob

crocro wrote: »

It is most valuable if you are on higher rate tax when you save 47% and your employer saves 10.75%. i think you forgot that employee PRSI and levies are also refundable. also employers prsi at up to 10.75%.

I did indeed , sorry . I assumed it was at the lower marginal rate mike most reliefs are ..not at the individually applicable rate . Thanks for clarifying that point .

Richer people get greater benefits from the scheme and therefore can make absolute savings over buying online , unlike poorer people . Greens do not represent poorer constituencies by and large .

I think your contention is that 50 bike shops around the country have colluded to raise their prices by 25%. Presumably they arranged this at the last meeting of the trilateral commission or the bilderberg group.

My contention is that most of the savings in tax are gouged out by 'approved providers ' , yes. This is typical in Ireland .

I see this thread as part two of 'Eamon Ryan wants to turn the phoenix park tunnel into a cycle path'. I presume Eamon Ryan has pissed you off big time about something in the past. Maybe you'd like to share it with the group?

Apart from the fact that he is an arrogant, clueless and unprincipled waste of space I have no real opinion on him . The greens did not even get their deposit back in his constituency and he will be toast at the next general election .

crocro

My problem with the scheme is that I don't think the price of bikes is the reason people don't cycle to work. A bike costs much the same as getting a minor service done on your car. The scheme is a based on a scheme in the UK http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/home,intro.htm

I'd guess that people don't cycle to work because they live too far away from work (poor planning) or because they feel unsafe on the patchy unsegregated bike lanes.

My contention is that most of the savings in tax are gouged out by 'approved providers ' , yes. This is typical in Ireland .

I disagree. With any consumer subsidy, some of the money ends up in the sellers pocket in the form of wider margin, the rest goes to the consumer as lower price. As I'm surer you know, the proportion that goes to the seller rather than the buyer depends on the relative price elasticity of the demand and supply curves. Bike supply in ireland is very elastic - if demand goes up just they ship in more. Bike demand is relatively inelastic. Price gouging requires collusion and this is very unlikely given that there are 50 competing companies.

Apart from the fact that he is an arrogant, clueless and unprincipled waste of space I have no real opinion on him .

You have made over 80 posts referring to him. I'm guessing he nicked your girlfriend or something.

c'mon tell us

Sponge Bob

crocro wrote: »

You have made over 80 posts referring to him. I'm guessing he nicked your girlfriend or something.

c'mon tell us

Most concern his ongoing serial failure as Minister of Communications . Probably the worst since Ray Burke .

penexpers

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Eamon Ryan has fostered a bizarre green energy economy since he took over the wood pellet brief in 2007 ( Noel Dempsey initially created it) .

The lunatic economics of wood pelletry have now spread to the bike to work scheme .

Astrofool has made a very good point about this tax break in this post here



Perfectly reasonable. Maybe get Revenue to check a sample every now and then ( at WORK and on a DRY DAY ) to ensure compliance .

This is what the greens actually did . Again from Astrofool .



A Green thought it up .

It is generally possible to buy the SAME bike ONLINE and ASSEMBLED for less than the 'approved seller' sells it and the tax break combined .

If you buy a bike for €1000 off the approved sellers and you get tax relief @ 21% then the net cost of the bike is €790 . However the approved sellers up their margin by 25% so you are no better off. You can actually get most of those bikes ( assembled and delivered) for less than €790 ONLINE .

Same applies to wood pellet boilers, they gouge the full grant off you by increasing the price. You are as better off buying them from Finland and Germany .

And they wonder why they have no councillors ????

Your interpretation of the scheme is slightly wrong. Employers don't have to use biketowork.ie, they can use whatever shops they see fit, even internet shops. biketowork.ie (and the like, there are a few companies offering this service) are merely there as an outsourced company providing an administration service for companies who want to take part in the scheme.

Sponge Bob

Astrofool was totally correct in what he/she said .

A scheme should be simple and straightforward . This is none of them .

It is , on reflection, probably lacking the basic dishonesty of this other recent Ryan Scam .

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Government+announces+national+insulation+programme+for+economic+recovery.htm

"The National Insulation Programme For Economic Recovery" Feb 2009

€250 for roof insulation .

The problem is that when you read Ryans terms and conditions you find that the minimum grant is €500 meaning you cannot get an attic grant and you must get a BEFORE and AFTER BER rating on the house as well .

Please note the minimum grant amount for the first application must be €500. Where a BER grant is applied for, the €200 BER Grant cannot count towards the €500 minimum.

A reasonably honest straightforward scheme would allow you to buy insulation , fit it and do a BER afterwards including verification and receipt collection .

Ryan does not do honest or straightforward .

You cannot get that €250 Roof Insulation Grant unless you find more work for the green scammers . Last word to himself

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Government+announces+national+insulation+programme+for+economic+recovery.htm

Government announces national insulation programme for economic recovery "create thousands of jobs both directly and indirectly over the course of 2009"

crocro

This is a thread about the cycle to work scheme in a forum about commuting and transport. This is not the inqusition into the collected sins of Eamon Ryan forum.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

you must get a BEFORE and AFTER BER rating on the house as well .

No you don't.

Building Energy Rating

A BER assessment is not required for participation in the scheme. However, a BER carried out prior to works can provide useful advice to a homeowner on the upgrade measures he or she needs to take to improve the home’s energy efficiency. A BER conducted after the measures are finished can establish the impact of the works and give the homeowner comfort regarding their investment.

penexpers

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Astrofool was totally correct in what he/she said .

Sorry but he/she wasn't. You could research the facts yourself and draw your own conclusion.

Here is the guidance document issued to employers

www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/bik-exemption-for-bicycles.pdf

9.6 Can a bicycle be bought anywhere, e.g. online from abroad, or
will it have to be bought in Ireland or from a pre-approved selection
of shops?
There are no limits as to where the bicycle should be purchased by the
employer

So Revenue aren't placing any restrictions on where the bike can be bought from. It's up to each individual employer to draw up their list of authorised suppliers.

There is a benefit to the employee with the salary sacrifice too in that they can pay for the bike over a period of time rather than paying full price initially and claiming retrospectively. And of course the employer benefits too through reduced PRSI.

nagero

After it was announced in the budget my employer called the various bicycle shops in town to see if they'd be participation in the scheme? Most hadn't seen much interest from other employers but were willing to participate.

When I got my bike it worked like this:

- Go to shop and haggle over price.
- Get owner to invoice employer. aka do up a quote with their bank details included.
- Employer agrees to pay and transfers money to shop's bank account. (employer doesn't do cheques)
- Show owner checks that monies paid and releases bike.
- I pay for bike over x months.

Some of the multiples have problems with this kind of arrangement as they're not setup to handle someone paying by bank transfer. In one case a colleague had to get one4all vouchers to the value of the bike which increased the complexity a bit.

Others have bought online and from shops in other towns

kevin

Slice

I think it's been pretty successful. Not all companies implement the scheme in the same way, for example my employer issued me a cheque and the funds are deducted from salary in one lump sum. I know of at least three other people in my department availing of it and all the city bike shops seem to be advertising their participation.

cyclopath2001

Slice wrote: »

I think it's been pretty successful.

Wouldn't that depend on what the criteria for success were?

For example, number of cars left at home that would otherwise be clogging up the streets?

I deplore the scheme as the adminstrative effort would have been better spent reforming the cycle track regulations.

It remains to be seen if the majority of takers turn out to be people who already cycle to work.

Blowfish

Person checks to see if their company is in the scheme (or if self employed, goes to the hassle of signing up to the scheme).

There is no such thing as 'signing up for the scheme', there's no need for it.

Person goes to the company with the quote.
Company checks if the bike seller is on the approved list.
If not on the approved list, they try to get them added to the approved list.

There is no approved list, as mentioned previously it can be bought from anywhere. This is something I had pointed out 2 days previously in that thread to Astrofool, but he seems to have ignored it. Getting the bike from a reasonably priced place online is just a matter of convincing your employer to shop around (something which by the looks of it, I'll have to do).

Assume success, company applies for a voucher to that amount from the scheme.
Voucher arrives, person takes voucher and then buys the bike.

There are no vouchers. The bike is simply bought by the company and written off as tax free benefit in kind.

I'm not the greatest fan of Ryan and would agree with your opinions on the ridiculousness of broadband here, however the bike scheme itself isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Slice

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Wouldn't that depend on what the criteria for success were?

For example, number of cars left at home that would otherwise be clogging up the streets?

I deplore the scheme as the adminstrative effort would have been better spent reforming the cycle track regulations.

It remains to be seen if the majority of takers turn out to be people who already cycle to work.

Well I'm speaking anecdotally but judging by the number of people I know who have availed of the scheme I would definitely say it's successful.