Recovery from races

tergat

Hi all,

Somebody sent me a PM asking about recovery after racing and when they should do a hard workout. It may help others so my answer is below:

I picked this up from a foreign coach and I believe it to be spot on. For every mile you run in a race (at full effort), you need 1 day of recovery running + 1 more day before running a hard workout again.

Example: You ran a 5k race (3 miles). That means you recovery run for 3 + 1 more day or 4 days. On your 4th day you can run a hard workout. If you don't feel good or fresh, wait another day.

Example: You ran a 10k race (6 miles). Recovery run for 6 + 1 more day or 7 days. You can run a hard workout on the 7th day. If you don't feel fresh, wait another day or two.

The rule of thumb regarding sub-max running in races (those who didnt run flat out) goes like this:

5% below all-out effort = 3/4ths of normal recovery time;
10% below all-out effort = 1/2 of normal recovery time;
15% below all-out effort = 1/4th of normal recovery time.

Tergat

TheRoadRunner

I think that's a good rule of thumb and I know plenty of vets and experienced runners who advocate that approach.

For a marathon or half marathon I'd definitely follow that approach but around the 10k or 10 mile mark it can be hard to be sensible and take 7 or 11 days recovery as I find I recover quick enough after either distance. I know it's not a full recovery and that's why I think it's important to have somebody i.e coach to advise an athlete.

AJCOT

Sounds sensible, I must admit I always rest the day after a race though rarely for longer than that. Thanks for the advice.

buck65

I am running the Achill half marathon on 4th July, would it be madness to run the Clare 10k a week before?
(I am running aprox 20 miles per week at moment)

Abhainn

buck65 wrote: »

I am running the Achill half marathon on 4th July, would it be madness to run the Clare 10k a week before?
(I am running aprox 20 miles per week at moment)

No not madness. Which one is your top priority?
If you were considering running both at 100% effort then it may not be so clever. You could use the 10K as a tempo / steady run pace and race the Achill event. Achill is a challenging half marathon. Best of luck

RacoonQueen

So running Dublin AND New York would be a bad idea?

buck65

Abhainn wrote: »

No not madness. Which one is your top priority?
If you were considering running both at 100% effort then it may not be so clever. You could use the 10K as a tempo / steady run pace and race the Achill event. Achill is a challenging half marathon. Best of luck

Yeah maybe I will use it as a tempo run, the half mara is the priority, but because of the difficulty of the course I am not expecting to run a great time so was tempted to have a lash at the 10k!
But on 2nd thoughts if I kept the first 5 miles at half mara pace and then push the last 1.2 miles it may be better?

Abhainn

RacoonQueen wrote: »

So running Dublin AND New York would be a bad idea?

No reason not to run both if you have prepared properly and not try and PB in each. If you run DM easy, NY can be achieved also. I think there are a number of contributors here who have ran marathons very close to each other

You could prepare by doing back to back long runs (doubles) on a few occasions, these aren't easy. For my Conn Ultra preparation this year I built up to a 24 and 21 milers at the weekend.

Personally I love DM and will want to run it every year when it comes around. To run well in NY is on my plans next year but I don't want to drop Dublin either!



.

Abhainn

buck65 wrote: »

!
But on 2nd thoughts if I kept the first 5 miles at half mara pace and then push the last 1.2 miles it may be better?

Yes that's seems sensible and you would be nicely tuned up and in good form to crack those Achill hills

TheRoadRunner

Abhainn wrote: »

No reason not to run both if you have prepared properly and not try and PB in each.

I'd have to disagree here. It is probably possible to run both but to do yourself justice in both is near impossible IMO. If I were to do the 2, I would run my guts out in Dublin and jog/walk/enjoy NY, wouldn't even dream of chasing a time.

cfitz

Tergat, would you apply that advice to your top athletes? I would have thought that high mileage athletes would be safe to do a hard workout much sooner than that. For example, if we think of one of the good Irish middle distance guys, maybe someone like Mark Hanrahan - if he were to run a full effort 5 mile race on Sunday, he'd be best just to do recovery runs until Saturday?

Stupid_Private

cfitz wrote: »

Tergat, would you apply that advice to your top athletes? I would have thought that high mileage athletes would be safe to do a hard workout much sooner than that. For example, if we think of one of the good Irish middle distance guys, maybe someone like Mark Hanrahan - if he were to run a full effort 5 mile race on Sunday, he'd be best just to do recovery runs until Saturday?

I know that if Seamus Power raced at the weekend he wouldn't have a hard workout until the following Friday. Likewise Jerry Kiernan does the same with his athletes - no hard session until the following weekend.

tergat

cfitz wrote: »

Tergat, would you apply that advice to your top athletes? I would have thought that high mileage athletes would be safe to do a hard workout much sooner than that. For example, if we think of one of the good Irish middle distance guys, maybe someone like Mark Hanrahan - if he were to run a full effort 5 mile race on Sunday, he'd be best just to do recovery runs until Saturday?

cfitz,

If my athletes run a 800m, 1500m, or 3000m on say a Saturday I will have them do a medium intensity workout on Tuesday e.g. LT Workout with 4-6*8-10 secs uphill sprints afterwards with full recovery, but very controlled workout. Then on the Friday I will have them do a harder workout when they are fully recovered.For a guy running a 5000m I will wait until Thur/Fri after a race Sat so they are fully recovered.

A guy like Mark Hanrahan who runs 85-100 miles a week consistently has a huge aerobic base so can recover quicker than an athlete with a lesser base. He may be ready to do another workout maybe Wed/Thur depending on how he feels. But more often than not Irish athletes will hop on the track 2 days after a race and what happens? Injury or poor race performances.

People underestimate the importance of recovery and have in their minds that if they dont 'kill' themselves in workouts they will not improve. Simply put, it makes no sense to hammer away at hard workouts for weeks and months on end because injury, illness, and mental burnout occur. However, one can train to a high level of running fitness without doing really hard workouts; and there is a low chance of bad things happening.

Key factors people need to look at are as follows:

1) Performance level. A fitter runner can absorb more fast running without breaking down.

2) Training consistency. A runner who trains at a decent level for several weeks or months without having setbacks or time off due to injury or illness can handle more quality training per workout and per week.

3) Technical skill. Someone who "pounds the ground," overstrides, leans too much or pronates too much is more likely to have problems when doing high volume quality training.

4) Weekly aerobic volume. A runner who has been covering more miles per week, for several weeks, can handle more quality interval work than one who has been doing lower mileage over a shorter time-frame.

5) Life stress. If you work a lot and have family obligations, you can't do as much quality interval training per workout or per week as someone who is "stress-free."

You can only train as hard as you can recover!

Tergat

Abhainn

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'd have to disagree here. It is probably possible to run both but to do yourself justice in both is near impossible IMO. If I were to do the 2, I would run my guts out in Dublin and jog/walk/enjoy NY, wouldn't even dream of chasing a time.

Roadrunner maybe you misinterpreted me - sorry.
I was not referring to PB in each, far from that. Its very possible to run and enjoy both. Run both at LSR pace or thereabouts and a great day out could be had.

TheRoadRunner

Abhainn wrote: »

Roadrunner maybe you misinterpreted me - sorry.
I was not referring to PB in each, far from that. Its very possible to run and enjoy both. Run both at LSR pace or thereabouts and a great day out could be had.

ooops actually misread your post

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

If my athletes run a 800m, 1500m, or 3000m on say a Saturday I will have them do a medium intensity workout on Tuesday e.g. LT Workout with 4-6*8-10 secs uphill sprints afterwards with full recovery, but very controlled workout. Then on the Friday I will have them do a harder workout when they are fully recovered.For a guy running a 5000m I will wait until Thur/Fri after a race Sat so they are fully recovered.

How would you approach an athlete having to go through rounds? Maybe more relevant to elite elites who are at majors like worlds and euro but say a 1:53 800m man who would need to put a decent 800m on a saturday together to make a final on Sunday at the Nationals. With the competitive nature of 8's in Ireland he would have to treat saturday almost as a final yet be geared to be racing his best on the Sunday. Do you train to be able to handle this? Or if an athlete is going to have to potentially run 3 races in 4 days do you train to be able to handle this?

tergat

Tingle wrote: »

How would you approach an athlete having to go through rounds? Maybe more relevant to elite elites who are at majors like worlds and euro but say a 1:53 800m man who would need to put a decent 800m on a saturday together to make a final on Sunday at the Nationals. With the competitive nature of 8's in Ireland he would have to treat saturday almost as a final yet be geared to be racing his best on the Sunday. Do you train to be able to handle this? Or if an athlete is going to have to potentially run 3 races in 4 days do you train to be able to handle this?

Tingle,

Interesting question, it is a hard one to call. I would not change anything, just make sure the athlete is fresh going into the competition and have a solid aerobic system in place. I think if you have a solid aerobic foundation then this will get you through rounds or consecutive races. I have never trained athletes for this as such, I have just made sure they have solid endurance.

Those with weak endurance will suffer in rounds or racing on consecutive days. Another question to ponder is would it be worthwhile to do back to back workout days to teach your body to handle the stress? Kenyans do it but then again look at the huge aerobic base they have built up over the years. Can Irish athletes say the same? My guess is no they can't.

A very important point when racing rounds or on consecutive days is to make sure you do the little recovery bits right such as:
- Proper warm down & stretching
- Maybe Massage if used to it
- Some carbs & protein within 30 mins of finishing the race to speed up recovery process
- Replace lost fluids
- Get good meal within 2-3 hours of race
- Get good nights sleep
- Easy 10-20 min shake out run the following morning to open up capilliary beds etc.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

Hope that helps.

Tergat

Yeah, sounds good. I was toying with doing specific training to be able to do big back to back races but didn't know how but was wary anyway and have decided to back the training I have accumulated over the winter.

T runner

tergat wrote: »

Tingle,

Interesting question, it is a hard one to call. I would not change anything, just make sure the athlete is fresh going into the competition and have a solid aerobic system in place. I think if you have a solid aerobic foundation then this will get you through rounds or consecutive races. I have never trained athletes for this as such, I have just made sure they have solid endurance.

Those with weak endurance will suffer in rounds or racing on consecutive days. Another question to ponder is would it be worthwhile to do back to back workout days to teach your body to handle the stress? Kenyans do it but then again look at the huge aerobic base they have built up over the years. Can Irish athletes say the same? My guess is no they can't.

A very important point when racing rounds or on consecutive days is to make sure you do the little recovery bits right such as:
- Proper warm down & stretching
- Maybe Massage if used to it
- Some carbs & protein within 30 mins of finishing the race to speed up recovery process
- Replace lost fluids
- Get good meal within 2-3 hours of race
- Get good nights sleep
- Easy 10-20 min shake out run the following morning to open up capilliary beds etc.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

Lydiard recognised the importance of endurance in his athletes for this specific reason. All his middle distance runners went through marathon conditioning as an early phase.

Some of his athletes apparently beat faster athletes in the olympics because they were able to run faster than them in the final. He even had teammates make sure that heats were fast wherever possible so that endurance became more of a factor.

Tergat, Is there ever a worry about losing leg speed during the recovery period with no hard sessions, or do your athletes do an easy session/strides during the recovery period?

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

How would you approach an athlete having to go through rounds?

I've often wondered about this.

And would the Olympics/World Championships etc. be a better spectacle/yield better times if the races were run as straight finals, with the heats a few weeks previously...Seems a shame in a way that the fastest 800m runner doesn't necessarily win the Olympics, rather the one who can perform over 3 tough races in 5 days...

tergat

T runner wrote: »

Lydiard recognised the importance of endurance in his athletes for this specific reason. All his middle distance runners went through marathon conditioning as an early phase.

Some of his athletes apparently beat faster athletes in the olympics because they were able to run faster than them in the final. He even had teammates make sure that heats were fast wherever possible so that endurance became more of a factor.

Tergat, Is there ever a worry about losing leg speed during the recovery period with no hard sessions, or do your athletes do an easy session/strides during the recovery period?

T runner,

Well said, I think Lydiard really was spot on with most of his stuff. What recovery period to you mean, after the season is over or week leading to key race?

Tergat

Enduro

Very Interesting thread. I'm reading it from the POV of ultra distance, where I reckon the specifics don't apply (Run 150 miles in a race, rest for 1/3 of a year!), but the generalities definitely do. I'd be interested to hear how you think you could adapt the specifics for ultra running races.

Couldn't agree more about the importance of recovery, and the negative effect of life-strees.

My own experience would definitely suggest that having a very high milage background hugely improves recovery speed.

Slogger Jogger

On a related topic to Enduro's post, I've done many marathons over the years and I've never rested for 26 days after. Oddly, and counterintuitively, I've done some races within as little as 6 days of a marathon and done pretty well (for me), so the theory works differently for different people / different events perhaps?

RacoonQueen

Abhainn wrote: »

No reason not to run both if you have prepared properly and not try and PB in each. If you run DM easy, NY can be achieved also. I think there are a number of contributors here who have ran marathons very close to each other

You could prepare by doing back to back long runs (doubles) on a few occasions, these aren't easy. For my Conn Ultra preparation this year I built up to a 24 and 21 milers at the weekend.

Personally I love DM and will want to run it every year when it comes around. To run well in NY is on my plans next year but I don't want to drop Dublin either!

Yeah, I don't want to pass up my opportunity to run NY but I love Dublin and don't want to miss it, not this year anyway. I was thinking back to back long runs to prepare me for doing the two and maybe two tough LSRs 6/7 days apart.

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

If I were to do the 2, I would run my guts out in Dublin and jog/walk/enjoy NY,

Thats the order I was thinking of doing it in. Then again, there's risk of getting injured in Dublin then not being able to run NY. *sigh* Decisions.

hunnymonster

or could that be that you didn't race flat out in the marathons? We both had experience of running a race shortly after a marathon last week. My legs were completely fresh in Wicklow on Saturday with a marathon the previous Monday, but only because I ran the marathon at a low HR and very comfortable. Had I raced it, I'm sure I would have still felt it on Saturday for the 10km. That's my gut feeling but I don't know how to convert it to numbers (days, %efforts etc)

hunnymonster

last post was in reply to SJ.

RQ, I would definitely race the first one and enjoy the second (or enjoy both). I did 3 in 3 weeks at some stage, each to the same perceived effort (hard but not gut shattering, 8/10) and the times slowed with each for the same effort. Ok, this was when I was a lot less experienced but still I would suggest the approach.

Stupid_Private

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

On a related topic to Enduro's post, I've done many marathons over the years and I've never rested for 26 days after. Oddly, and counterintuitively, I've done some races within as little as 6 days of a marathon and done pretty well (for me), so the theory works differently for different people / different events perhaps?

The values below from Tergat's earlier post would suggest why you can race a week after a marathon. If you went all out and could barely walk the day after because the muscles were so stiff then you'd be hard pushed to even think about racing that week. It's also not 26 days off, just 26 days before the next tough session

Tergat wrote:

5% below all-out effort = 3/4ths of normal recovery time;
10% below all-out effort = 1/2 of normal recovery time;
15% below all-out effort = 1/4th of normal recovery time.

tergat

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

On a related topic to Enduro's post, I've done many marathons over the years and I've never rested for 26 days after. Oddly, and counterintuitively, I've done some races within as little as 6 days of a marathon and done pretty well (for me), so the theory works differently for different people / different events perhaps?

Slogger Jogger,

When I spoke about race recovery I meant not incorporating hard workouts/races within the time frame to allow for maximum recovery. Certain individuals may be able to handle harder stuff sooner but its better to be safe than sorry.

Muscles, tendons and ligaments are not strong enough to take hard training in the immediate 3-4 weeks post-marathon. So, be careful, please!

Tergat

T runner

tergat wrote: »

T runner,

Well said, I think Lydiard really was spot on with most of his stuff. What recovery period to you mean, after the season is over or week leading to key race?

Tergat

Sorry, I mean during the recovery after a race:
Raced 21k on saturday, tough hilly off and on road course.
I agree about the gap to the next hard session. wont be doing a hard session again until probably next tuesday at the very earliest. In the meantime I presume doing a 6-8 strides after some easy runs is Ok and also now wondering (after reading the tempo thread) if Id get away with an easy tempo session (something like a short tempo run at long tempo pace followed by a few strides) this weekend?
Thanks in advance.

tergat

T runner wrote: »

Sorry, I mean during the recovery after a race:
Raced 21k on saturday, tough hilly off and on road course.
I agree about the gap to the next hard session. wont be doing a hard session again until probably next tuesday at the very earliest. In the meantime I presume doing a 6-8 strides after some easy runs is Ok and also now wondering (after reading the tempo thread) if Id get away with an easy tempo session (something like a short tempo run at long tempo pace followed by a few strides) this weekend?
Thanks in advance.

T runner,

There is no problem doing 6-8 strides after some easy days once you are not sprinting and taking to short a recovery. You do not want to build acidosis in the muscles.

A favourite of mine is 4-6 short hill sprints (8-12 secs) with 2-3 mins walk recovery. These are becoming exceedingly popular for distance runners, thanks in large part to Renato Canova and later Brad Hudson. They are becoming popular because they work. It's funny how it almost seems like a trend or a fad to do hill sprints now. In reality distance runners, and even more so, sprinters have been doing short hill sprints for a long time, it's just never been popularized as a key to training. These can be done once a week after an easy run and the day before a workout. They are great for leg strength, form, a recruiting fast twitch fibres.

If you feel recovered try a light tempo by all means, just listen to your body. If tired back off.

Tergat

BeepBeep67

Hi Tergat - I've been training to run a cluster of races towards the end of the month - 4 in 2 wks between 3k and 6k

• 21/06 - 5k (18:30ish)
• 26/06 - 6k (22:30ish)
• 01/07 - 3k (10:45ish)
• 05/07 - 5k (18:30ish)

They all have 4-5 days between them, what would your guidance be on activitiy in between races?
Maybe race day +1 40mins @ 8:30; +2 same; +3 same w/6 x 100m strides; +4 20min @ 8:30 - or anything additional?

BTW reading your threads over the last few days have been motivating and enlightening!

tergat

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Hi Tergat - I've been training to run a cluster of races towards the end of the month - 4 in 2 wks between 3k and 6k

• 21/06 - 5k (18:30ish)
• 26/06 - 6k (22:30ish)
• 01/07 - 3k (10:45ish)
• 05/07 - 5k (18:30ish)

They all have 4-5 days between them, what would your guidance be on activitiy in between races?
Maybe race day +1 40mins @ 8:30; +2 same; +3 same w/6 x 100m strides; +4 20min @ 8:30 - or anything additional?

BTW reading your threads over the last few days have been motivating and enlightening!

BeepBeep,

Due to the fact you have a race every 4-5 days all you should do in between is run easy with some strides. Focus on the other recovery techniques such as diet, massage, sleep, proper warm downs & stretching, these will all help. Dont drop normal weekly volume of running by more than 20-25% during the two weeks that you are racing.

Tergat

aero2k

Hello all,

First post here after lurking for several months. I'd like to compliment everyone here on the quality of the posts, it's a great source of knowledge and motivation. I'm wary of posting after an "interesting" experience on the dental forum, but here goes.

These questions are mostly directed at Tergat as OP, but all comments are appreciated.

First some background. Originally a competitive cyclist from 14-16 years old, gave up disillusioned. Ran 1983 DCM after 12 weeks training in 3:18. Kept reasonably fit on and off over the next several years. Returned to competitive cycling in 2000 aged 35. Had 3 relatively good seasons. Took up running again about 3 years ago mainly to encourage my son when he joined the local running club. Jogged/ran a few times a week but never really got into it as I always seemed to have aches and pains in the knees, lower back, ankles etc. About two years ago went away on holiday. Ran every day and eureka! No aches or pains. Trained for '08 DCM with a target of beating my '83 time and a "stretch" goal of sub 3. Ran the 1st half in 1:32 but faded badly over the last 6 to finish in 3:22.
Training was 3 days running per week, 1 speed, 1 tempo, 1 LSR, + 1 bike ride. Did the Addidas series in 32:11, 66:28 and 1:28:48. I'm a bit quicker this year, 31:30 in the Sportsworld 5 mile. I intend to make a serious attempt on a sub 3 DCM '09. I'm currently running around 30 miles per week, with the longest session around 11 miles.

My questions are as follows:

How much should I ramp up the volume and over what period of time?

Given the addidas 1/2m is only 4 weeks before the DCM, is it a bad idea to run it flat out?

What do you think of periodisation, i.e. 3-4 weeks of steadily increasing volume/intensity followed by a relatively easy week?

Am I mad to even attempt a sub 3?

My peak fitness was probably in 2001 when I was riding the bike 6 days per week, total 10-15 hours. Much of this was active recovery, just pedalling to and from work - 40 min each way, with a long slow session and a high intensity day or two. My reason for only running 3 days per week last year was fear of injury, but I've been lucky so far, and think I might benefit from running every day if I get the intensity and volume right.

What do you think?


Thanks,

aero2k

tergat

aero2k wrote: »

Hello all,

First post here after lurking for several months. I'd like to compliment everyone here on the quality of the posts, it's a great source of knowledge and motivation. I'm wary of posting after an "interesting" experience on the dental forum, but here goes.

These questions are mostly directed at Tergat as OP, but all comments are appreciated.

First some background. Originally a competitive cyclist from 14-16 years old, gave up disillusioned. Ran 1983 DCM after 12 weeks training in 3:18. Kept reasonably fit on and off over the next several years. Returned to competitive cycling in 2000 aged 35. Had 3 relatively good seasons. Took up running again about 3 years ago mainly to encourage my son when he joined the local running club. Jogged/ran a few times a week but never really got into it as I always seemed to have aches and pains in the knees, lower back, ankles etc. About two years ago went away on holiday. Ran every day and eureka! No aches or pains. Trained for '08 DCM with a target of beating my '83 time and a "stretch" goal of sub 3. Ran the 1st half in 1:32 but faded badly over the last 6 to finish in 3:22.
Training was 3 days running per week, 1 speed, 1 tempo, 1 LSR, + 1 bike ride. Did the Addidas series in 32:11, 66:28 and 1:28:48. I'm a bit quicker this year, 31:30 in the Sportsworld 5 mile. I intend to make a serious attempt on a sub 3 DCM '09. I'm currently running around 30 miles per week, with the longest session around 11 miles.

My questions are as follows:

How much should I ramp up the volume and over what period of time?

Given the addidas 1/2m is only 4 weeks before the DCM, is it a bad idea to run it flat out?

What do you think of periodisation, i.e. 3-4 weeks of steadily increasing volume/intensity followed by a relatively easy week?

Am I mad to even attempt a sub 3?

My peak fitness was probably in 2001 when I was riding the bike 6 days per week, total 10-15 hours. Much of this was active recovery, just pedalling to and from work - 40 min each way, with a long slow session and a high intensity day or two. My reason for only running 3 days per week last year was fear of injury, but I've been lucky so far, and think I might benefit from running every day if I get the intensity and volume right.

What do you think?


Thanks,

aero2k

aero2k,

Always increase volume by roughly 10% a week and do not increase both intensity of running and volume at the same time. Probably better not to rae the HM unless you are physically ready for it, focus on getting aerobically fit for the next 6 weeks or so and then start marathon specific training.

You should work your way up to running 5-6 days a week consistantly then add longer tempo runs and CV reps. See previous posts for details of these. Training 3 weeks big volume, one week lower is fine.

For you to run 3 hrs you need to be in roughly 1.23-1.25 shape for the HM. If you train consistantly and be patient theres no reason why ou cannot give it a go.

See Tempo run thread for details of Marathon training, especially long workouts these are the key.

Tergat

aero2k

Hi Tergat,

Many thanks for the very prompt and typically helpful reply.

tergat wrote: »

aero2k,
For you to run 3 hrs you need to be in roughly 1.23-1.25 shape for the HM. If you train consistantly and be patient there's no reason why you cannot give it a go.

I plan to be in 1:23-1:25 shape by September.
I've no problem with the consistency, patience is another story...I think that's what got me in the end last year. The day before the marathon it was a bit windy and I thought "3:10 will be a good target tomorrow". Next morning at 6am there wasn't a breath of wind, so I thought "2:59 sounds better", and I put on the racing flats. Cue the most horrifically painful experience I've ever had, not to mention frustrating, my thighs siezed completely though the rest of me felt full of running. Amazingly, I had no pains or aches once the walking down the stairs backwards thing wore off.

tergat wrote: »

See Tempo run thread for details of Marathon training, especially long workouts these are the key.

Will do.

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

Hello all,

First post here after lurking for several months. I'd like to compliment everyone here on the quality of the posts, it's a great source of knowledge and motivation. I'm wary of posting after an "interesting" experience on the dental forum, but here goes.

These questions are mostly directed at Tergat as OP, but all comments are appreciated.

First some background. Originally a competitive cyclist from 14-16 years old, gave up disillusioned. Ran 1983 DCM after 12 weeks training in 3:18. Kept reasonably fit on and off over the next several years. Returned to competitive cycling in 2000 aged 35. Had 3 relatively good seasons. Took up running again about 3 years ago mainly to encourage my son when he joined the local running club. Jogged/ran a few times a week but never really got into it as I always seemed to have aches and pains in the knees, lower back, ankles etc. About two years ago went away on holiday. Ran every day and eureka! No aches or pains. Trained for '08 DCM with a target of beating my '83 time and a "stretch" goal of sub 3. Ran the 1st half in 1:32 but faded badly over the last 6 to finish in 3:22.
Training was 3 days running per week, 1 speed, 1 tempo, 1 LSR, + 1 bike ride. Did the Addidas series in 32:11, 66:28 and 1:28:48. I'm a bit quicker this year, 31:30 in the Sportsworld 5 mile. I intend to make a serious attempt on a sub 3 DCM '09. I'm currently running around 30 miles per week, with the longest session around 11 miles.

My questions are as follows:

How much should I ramp up the volume and over what period of time?

Given the addidas 1/2m is only 4 weeks before the DCM, is it a bad idea to run it flat out?

What do you think of periodisation, i.e. 3-4 weeks of steadily increasing volume/intensity followed by a relatively easy week?

Am I mad to even attempt a sub 3?

My peak fitness was probably in 2001 when I was riding the bike 6 days per week, total 10-15 hours. Much of this was active recovery, just pedalling to and from work - 40 min each way, with a long slow session and a high intensity day or two. My reason for only running 3 days per week last year was fear of injury, but I've been lucky so far, and think I might benefit from running every day if I get the intensity and volume right.

What do you think?


Thanks,

aero2k

I'm jealous of your times aero2k, 5 miles in 31:30, great stuff.
do you have a recent 5k time as well?

Also on your half marathon time, did you pace the race 50:50 from start or start out slow for first few 5 miles and pick it up?hoping to improve my half time l8r in year and interested to hear.

Thanks,
Kevin

shels4ever

@ Tergat.

Just a quick question in regards to training plans, How often would you revise the tempo and interval paces, i know for top guys the difference in times from peack to off season may not be huge. But for new runners or people on a come back progress just from pure mileage would be high.

I know i took 2.5 mins from my 5k time over about a 6 week period without any major training just pure base work.

So coming from a poor base how would you deal with that. At the moment my 5k pb would be 22:30 but I think that with the marathon base i'll run sub 21 without much training. Is setting tempos and interval based on a 19:59 pace too quick, 9 ( i know i will be running this time in 6 weeks).

Thanks.

aero2k

tisnotover wrote: »

I'm jealous of your times aero2k, 5 miles in 31:30, great stuff.

Thanks Kevin,

Last year I did 32:11 for the Adidas 5m in mid July, so this year I'm a bit quicker in mid-May. The main difference is I'm running at least 4 days per week this year, plus my longer runs are longer than they were this time last year. Also that 31:30 came after a 10 day trip abroad where I ran almost every day and got loads of rest - I'm planning to work my way up to 6/7 days per week over the next 3-4 weeks on Tergat's recommendation.

tisnotover wrote: »

do you have a recent 5k time as well?

No, I've never run a timed 5k. I did a 2 mile in 12:07 at the end of July '08.

tisnotover wrote: »

Also on your half marathon time, did you pace the race 50:50 from start or start out slow for first few 5 miles and pick it up?hoping to improve my half time l8r in year and interested to hear.

Thanks,
Kevin

I always try to run the first mile a little slower than the target average pace and then try to run an even pace thereafter allowing for the gradient - the races in the Phoenix park have sections where you can make a bit of time and some drags where you have to go a little slower to avoid blowing up. I don't have accurate splits but from memory in the 10m I got to 5 in 32:30 and finished in 66:28, and in the 1/2m I think I was about 2 minutes slower for the second half. I need to improve those times if I'm going to have a realistic crack at the sub 3 marathon, so hopefully it's just a question of maintaining the first half pace.
Best of luck with your 1/2.
aero2k

tergat

shels4ever wrote: »

@ Tergat.

Just a quick question in regards to training plans, How often would you revise the tempo and interval paces, i know for top guys the difference in times from peack to off season may not be huge. But for new runners or people on a come back progress just from pure mileage would be high.

I know i took 2.5 mins from my 5k time over about a 6 week period without any major training just pure base work.

So coming from a poor base how would you deal with that. At the moment my 5k pb would be 22:30 but I think that with the marathon base i'll run sub 21 without much training. Is setting tempos and interval based on a 19:59 pace too quick, 9 ( i know i will be running this time in 6 weeks).

Thanks.

shels4ever,

Always set Tempo/LT/CV reps at CURRENT (todays) pace and never GOAL pace. The biggest mistake athletes make is setting training paces faster than they are capable of handling.

Remember overtime you will gradually get fitter and paces for reps will also. Don't rush things, be patient. For you, set your tempo paces for your CURRENT 5km ability and as you get fitter, revise it.

Tergat

tisnotover

aero2k wrote: »

Thanks Kevin,

Last year I did 32:11 for the Adidas 5m in mid July, so this year I'm a bit quicker in mid-May. The main difference is I'm running at least 4 days per week this year, plus my longer runs are longer than they were this time last year. Also that 31:30 came after a 10 day trip abroad where I ran almost every day and got loads of rest - I'm planning to work my way up to 6/7 days per week over the next 3-4 weeks on Tergat's recommendation.

No, I've never run a timed 5k. I did a 2 mile in 12:07 at the end of July '08.



I always try to run the first mile a little slower than the target average pace and then try to run an even pace thereafter allowing for the gradient - the races in the Phoenix park have sections where you can make a bit of time and some drags where you have to go a little slower to avoid blowing up. I don't have accurate splits but from memory in the 10m I got to 5 in 32:30 and finished in 66:28, and in the 1/2m I think I was about 2 minutes slower for the second half. I need to improve those times if I'm going to have a realistic crack at the sub 3 marathon, so hopefully it's just a question of maintaining the first half pace.
Best of luck with your 1/2.
aero2k

Interesting to hear that you saw improvements in your 5 mile time after building upto 4 days/week.I'm just starting to do the same now...
best of luck in your training, do you have a training log by the way, I only started one myself this week(new to forum as well )