BJJ BLACKBELTS ARE SOME THING SPECIAL

OLDMAN1

i just wanted to comment on one thing that cowzerp said in another trend and that was that a BJJ black belt is some thing special, this is some thing that i have to disagree with, it is no more special than any other black belt, its the man or woman that makes it more than a peice of black cloth. i personally like BJJ , but i have never trained in it, a bjj black belt might be good at ground fighting but so are sambo and free style wrestlers, judo black belts are very good at throws and ground work, kickboxers are good at kicking and punching, sanshou fighters are good at boxing, kicking and throwing with boxing gloves on ,boxers are good at punching, as you can see no style is better that another, what makes them special is the people that trains hard in the chosen style.weather it be BJJ. MUAY THAI, JUDO, KICKBOXING, SAMBO OR SANSHOU, THIS IS JUST MY OPINION BUT OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS I'VE HEARD A LOT OF BULL****.

cowzerp

I dont think so, i'd be confident that a blue belt in bjj would beat a black belt in any of them other arts mentioned 8-10 times, unless they where also trained in the art of grappling..

most black belts in most arts are easily got and 2 a penny.

Thats why most people dont care for belts anymore-BJJ is amazingly hard to get any belt never mind a black, Black belts in BJJ are special.

Quillo

cowzerp wrote: »

most black belts in most arts are easily got and 2 a penny.

That's some sweeping statement, particularly from a Mod....

May I respectfully ask how many of these "2 a penny" black belts you have in your collection ?

cowzerp

Quillo wrote: »

That's some sweeping statement, particularly from a Mod....

May I respectfully ask how many of these "2 a penny" black belts you have in your collection ?

None, I done kenpo and left after months as i thought it was crap, i train BJJ and am a white belt, hoping to move to blue in the near future, but as i said-Blue is not easy to get and im doing it about 2 years or so.

In kenpo the 1st belt was giving after doing 10 steps of kata!

ps, whats been a mod got to do with my opinion?

Jason Mc

I have indeed trained with a lot of black belts who's technique was pretty dam poor

I've never seen this with a BJJ blackbelt

I don't think the systems themselves are at fault, its just the people within them

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

I dont think so, i'd be confident that a blue belt in bjj would beat a black belt in any of them other arts mentioned 8-10 times, unless they where also trained in the art of grappling..

most black belts in most arts are easily got and 2 a penny.

Thats why most people dont care for belts anymore-BJJ is amazingly hard to get any belt never mind a black, Black belts in BJJ are special.

Jason Mc wrote: »

I have indeed trained with a lot of black belts who's technique was pretty dam poor

I've never seen this with a BJJ blackbelt

I don't think the systems themselves are at fault, its just the people within them

Sorry I've to keep this quick and simple as I'm in work.

BJJ is makes up such a minority of people training in Martial Arts in this country that I've often found (in my opinion) a little bit of 'hero worship' surrounding its higher grades and in particular a BJJ BB.

For me the jury is still out on BJJ as its still taking baby steps here.

Paul I think you went out on a limb with your claim's a little and I'd ask people not to get riled by it.

Sure as a grappling art I don't think it has an equal, but that doesn't mean its any more value that 'say' a Judoka's BB or anyother style you want to pick out.

cowzerp

Khalil Gifted Liqueur wrote: »

Paul I think you went out on a limb with your claim's a little and I'd ask people not to get riled by it.

Sure as a grappling art I don't think it has an equal, but that doesn't mean its any more value that 'say' a Judoka's BB or anyother style you want to pick out.

Im sure the top Judo Black belts are great but in fairness i know of plenty of Judo black belts that would not impress me too much TBH, the reason been i believe its easier to get than a bjj black belt in ireland anyway.

As i said, this is only my opinion..
maybe Japanese judo black belts would be a different case.
i dont know though.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

Im sure the top Judo Black belts are great but in fairness i know of plenty of Judo black belts that would not impress me too much TBH, the reason been i believe its easier to get than a bjj black belt in ireland anyway.

As i said, this is only my opinion..
maybe Japanese judo black belts would be a different case.
i dont know though.

I agree with you entirely.

But in this country the focus on gaining your balck belt is on your fighting abilities (in the sport of Judo) rather than your technical abilities.

But its not like that everywhere, indeed some olympians (judoka) have not even reached BB status in their home crountries because although they're exceptionally skillful fighters they have not reached the required technical abilties laid down by their own testing panals.

(please don't ask me for online sources for Olympian Judoka with brown belts, pretty please!).

Aren't you learning your BJJ from Andy Ryan?.. You have an advantage over most then because your also being taught by one of the best Judoka this country as produced - when he gets his BJJ BB he'll have both sides of the same coin covered and his students will benefit greatly.

I just think its a bit of a wind up to say that in 8 out of 10 times a BJJ will beat any one else.. But as an MMA exponent I can see where your coming from with that too, I personally believe that in Europe (at least) you need good BJJ skills to be able to hold your own in the cage.

But if we're to get back to the thread in the MMA forum about the lad who was crippled by a bad take down. If the MMA bodies decided that only controlled takedowns were to count for points then you'd see alot more people take up Judo to aid this transition.


.

Nothingcompares

oldman1 wrote:

. i personally like BJJ , but i have never trained in it,

well there you go. BJJ has one of the strictest grading systems I'm aware of and is mostly performance based. In my opinion, the effort, skill and knowledge of a person who gets a purple belt in BJJ (white,blue,purple,brown black) is roughly equivalent to what people do to get a Black belt in most other martial arts.

cowzerp wrote: »

Im sure the top Judo Black belts are great but in fairness i know of plenty of Judo black belts that would not impress me too much TBH, the reason been i believe its easier to get than a bjj black belt in ireland anyway.

Well that's a particularly bold statement. I'm a brown belt by the way so I hope you're not basing any of that one me

Grading systems are distinct entities in all the different martial arts and there's (almost) no point comparing them . Judo black belts equate to high level of competence not mastery. Tbh, I'm going to leave it at that, bjj and judo have different grading systems, not worth comparing if you haven't done both.

cowzerp

I think Judo is cool, im not saying anything bad against the art-As you say BJJ and Judo are 2 sides to the same coin.

I believe to be truly great at BJJ you need some Judo, but the standards are high as you know to get any belt in BJJ, The same cant be said of other arts-if there is 1 that is as hard to achieve black belt then fair play and i guess it would be a very effective system..

Quillo

cowzerp wrote: »

None, I done kenpo and left after months as i thought it was crap, i train BJJ and am a white belt, hoping to move to blue in the near future, but as i said-Blue is not easy to get and im doing it about 2 years or so.

In kenpo the 1st belt was giving after doing 10 steps of kata!

ps, whats been a mod got to do with my opinion?

Sweeping generalities are normally the mark of a troll - not something I would expect of a mod. Sweeping generalities based on a brief sampling of one Kenpo school is not really what I would regard as a very informed opinion, again, something I would normally associate with trolling.

I spent 3 years training in ITF TKD and found the grading requirements strict and demanding. A would consider a black belt in TKD hard earned and not 2 a penny. (I only made it to black tag in that time and hard o give after breaking my ankle).

A good friend of mine took 5 hard years to reach back belt in Shotokan, so I wouldn't say Shotokan belts are 2 a penny.

I have seen the grading requirements of, and trained for 18 months in Sayoc Kali, and progression in that system is incredibly difficult.

I know of dedicated students that have taken 5 years to reach black belt in tradition Ju Jutsu and Aikido.

I put a fairly intense 18 months into Aiki Ju Jutsu (during which time I was only allow to grade once). No one handing out grades for cheaply there.

I spent 6 years involved in Hapkido and, while I found the grading process less formal than, say, TKD, but all the syllabus material was covered and examined on an ongoing basis and considerable effort is required to reach black belt (I retired after my second dan due to injury and politics !).

So, based on my experience of several arts over many years experienced first hand (and a few more eard about second hand) I would tend to agree with the OP and suggest that, with the exception of "send money, get a blackbelt" Internet offerings, black belts are not 2 a penny..... but that's just my opinion.

--amadeus--

cowzerp wrote: »

most black belts in most arts are easily got and 2 a penny.

Very controversial and highly disrespectful opinion, particularly when you don't hold one yourself.

Utterly pointless conversation though, different MAs have different criteria no harm in having a bit of pride in your own discipline but it shouldn't have to be at the expense of another art, especially one you have zero exposure to.

Tones69

Quillo wrote: »

Sweeping generalities are normally the mark of a troll - not something I would expect of a mod. Sweeping generalities based on a brief sampling of one Kenpo school is not really what I would regard as a very informed opinion, again, something I would normally associate with trolling.

I spent 3 years training in ITF TKD and found the grading requirements strict and demanding. A would consider a black belt in TKD hard earned and not 2 a penny. (I only made it to black tag in that time and hard o give after breaking my ankle).

A good friend of mine took 5 hard years to reach back belt in Shotokan, so I wouldn't say Shotokan belts are 2 a penny.

I have seen the grading requirements of, and trained for 18 months in Sayoc Kali, and progression in that system is incredibly difficult.

I know of dedicated students that have taken 5 years to reach black belt in tradition Ju Jutsu and Aikido.

I put a fairly intense 18 months into Aiki Ju Jutsu (during which time I was only allow to grade once). No one handing out grades for cheaply there.

I spent 6 years involved in Hapkido and, while I found the grading process less formal than, say, TKD, but all the syllabus material was covered and examined on an ongoing basis and considerable effort is required to reach black belt (I retired after my second dan due to injury and politics !).

So, based on my experience of several arts over many years experienced first hand (and a few more eard about second hand) I would tend to agree with the OP and suggest that, with the exception of "send money, get a blackbelt" Internet offerings, black belts are not 2 a penny..... but that's just my opinion.

Another thread thats gonna cause murder, ha. But about ur statement there, thats one of cowzers points i think, plenty of martial arts out there that black belts can be achieved in under 5/6 years. There is only a handful of people in the world who have gotten BJJ blackbelts in that time frame, average would be about 10-12 years i believe. Having said this, to reach a blackbelt level in ANY martial art is no easy task, but belts are very hard to get in BJJ i will agree with that statement, you really have to be on your game

cowzerp

i've sparred many black belts in different karate's, kickboxing, and stuff like that and never left impressed. Thats what i'd base the standard by, i'm no troll either and take offense to that-i would put a judo bb above most striking belts anyway from rolling with them before, but i'd be a white level judo player so they'd beat me easy. I'm only speaking from my limited experience and giving oz honest opinion.

Nothingcompares

quillo wrote:

A good friend of mine took 5 hard years to reach back belt in Shotokan, so I wouldn't say Shotokan belts are 2 a penny.

I have seen the grading requirements of, and trained for 18 months in Sayoc Kali, and progression in that system is incredibly difficult.

I know of dedicated students that have taken 5 years to reach black belt in tradition Ju Jutsu and Aikido.

i'm not trying to get in tit for tat thing. I've already said it's a pointless task comparing martial arts but just a comment

5 years = meaningless statement
is that 5 years training twice a week? is that 5 years training twice a day?

next, belts are awarded at the discretion of some bloke who already has a black belt. so how can we compare them?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Re. Trolling comments.

Guys, mud sticks ok!.

And while sometimes we kid ourselves that most of us here are buddy buddies and 'chatting' in a little closed shop you must remember that this forum is being hit by browsers both from boards and google who may not know the personalities involved here.

So, if you suspect a troll report it as such and don't go mouthing off about it openly.

And having said that I'll rush straight to Cowzer's defence and say there's not a snowballs chance in hell he'd troll this forum, cast anymore doubt on his charactor here and I'll ban the little fvcker be pretty damn pissed off at ya.

Now, lets get back to handbags at ten paces type posting.

:P

Quillo

Khalil Gifted Liqueur wrote: »

Re. Trolling comments.



So, if you suspect a troll report it as such and don't go mouthing off about it openly.

And having said that I'll rush straight to Cowzer's defence and say there's not a snowballs chance in hell he'd troll this forum, cast anymore doubt on his charactor here and I'll ban the little fvcker be pretty damn pissed off at ya.

Now, lets get back to handbags at ten paces type posting.

:P

Reprimand duly noted.

I can see how my comments were ad hominum.
I should have stuck to addressing the opinion directly and not attached an offensive label to the holder of the opinion. I apologize.

David Jones

Very controversial and highly disrespectful opinion, particularly when you don't hold one yourself.

Have 2nd Dan black belt in Wado Ryu, have brown belt in Kenpo, did Wing Chun for 3 years, did 6 months of Aikido, some kickboxing....brown belt bjj. Do I get to have an opinion?

Cant believe its another one of those threads again, Summer is definitely here!

The can is open and the worms are giddy, sits back and waits for hell to break loose.

--amadeus--

The point I was trying to make is that it's easy to knock the difficulty of something you haven't achieved.

I think it's pointless comparing belts across disciplines - get a bjj blackbelt into a traditional striking MA competition and they'd probably be beaten by lower grades simply because it's not what they trained for. Does that mean that bjj bb's are worthless? Of course not. Train in what you enjoy and compete against your peers by all means but compare apples and apples.

dlofnep

I think what Paul meant was that many arts have easier-to-obtain black belts. Alot require that you just come to class, remember some patterns/kata and not really demonstrate it in a practical situation.

Arts like Judo & BJJ (well judo at higher levels) require that you consistently perform in a sparring environment in order to progress through the ranks.

It's not to say that people haven't put in their work to get a black belt - 5-6 years of training is quite a considerable amount of time. In the same time, you could have a masters degree in university. But it's what you do in that time that counts.

Personally - I found that TKD wasted my time on learning patterns for grading. The only element I ever liked was sparring. I don't want to be graded on the memory of some silly patterns, I wanted to be graded on my ability to perform.

This thread is going to open a can of worms, but sure - here we go again..

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

I think what Paul meant was that many arts have easier-to-obtain black belts. Alot require that you just come to class, remember some patterns/kata and not really demonstrate it in a practical situation.

And thats exactly how I read him too, but Paul is pretty much like me. He doesn't fill his posts with the flowery language some are gifted with here & he fire's from the hip and says it like it is.

This isn't aimed at Paul, but I find these days that alot of MMA practitioners came straight into MMA from a UFC fan background and so have limited experience & apprication of TMA.

dlofnep wrote: »

This thread is going to open a can of worms, but sure - here we go again..

For some reason I doubt it because I truely believe this forum has matured way beyond those dark days of constant strife.

I hope I'm not proved wrong.

.

joepenguin

Doesnt it take longer to get to black belt in bjj compared to other arts?

Killme00

joepenguin wrote: »

Doesnt it take longer to get to black belt in bjj compared to other arts?

Its all relative :pac:

A couple of points if i may:
-BJJ hasnt been around in Ireland long and hasnt been polluted by some of the money grabbing whores who attached themselves to TMA and Kickboxing over the years.
-There is no political bull associated with Irish BJJ yet because it is very young in this country.
-The publicity that a BJJ belt is harder to get is good press for BJJ. It sets it apart from other arts where it is seen that it is easier to get a belt due to more belts being available (rightly or wrongly).


This debate is a similar to a young man joining the corpo. He works hard every day until one of the older heads says to him, "slow down, you're making the rest of us look bad". Hopefully the young guy wont slow down because his hard work will make him the others guys boss before too long.

Ah the joys of youth, Im 31 and starting to creak but i wont slow down. :pac:

Jason Mc

Ah the fun of being a mod, u gotta learn diplomacy now Paul....

Tim_Murphy

I spent 3 years training in ITF TKD and found the grading requirements strict and demanding. A would consider a black belt in TKD hard earned and not 2 a penny. (I only made it to black tag in that time and hard o give after breaking my ankle).

TKD black belts are hard earned in their own way, they take time, effort and money, but they don't mean you are actually any good at anything. Everybody who says at TKD long enough will get one.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jason Mc wrote: »

Ah the fun of being a mod, u gotta learn diplomacy now Paul....

He has to learn to spell it first :P

.

David Jones

TKD black belts are hard earned in their own way, they take time, effort and money, but they don't mean you are actually any good at anything. Everybody who says at TKD long enough will get one.

Works exactly the same in Wado and in Kenpo from my experience. Check out Irish fighter, how many over weight, obviously out of shape 6th dan masters are there? And Im not talking plus 50 age group either, although there still is no excuse for it then either. We have guys in combat gi's with swords and knives and guitars stating they teach MMA now.

BJJ and MMA have only been around for a short time, I have been training in it since 1998, but did Wado for 18 years and Kenpo for 6. Parents want to send their kids to things that they will get certificates in and belts for. A sign of them getting what they are paying for. Its a societal problem, very few kids want to work at anything these days, a lot is given to them and its unappreciated, because it isnt necessarily worked for. If you attend your local TMA class for twice a week for long enough, you will get promoted. Im not saying its wrong, and I was in that trap for a long time as a kid, but its easy and looks cool with the uniform and certificates etc. I am so glad to work in a system where performance based on hard work is the criteria for promotion. If you cant perform in a realistic situation, ie if you cant "hang with the blue belts" you dont get your blue belt until you do. At NG there is no charge for gradings as there isnt one. If you have put in the mat time and Chris and I think by observing you roll and rolling with you that you have the necessary technical ability and are able to apply it against resisting opponents with consistency you will get your belt / shirt. If not then you will have to train harder and wait till next time or the time after or the time after that. Many people cant hack that, I have had many people who after putting in a year of work or 18 months of training but who just arent quite there yet, leave after not getting their blue belt. That says more about the individual and their goals than it does about bjj. If your soul goal is the next belt then you shouldnt be training bjj, you should be off investigating one of the many adverts in Irish Fighter for killing techniques of the masters or someone who has just brought a new art to Ireland from the far east, and happens to be an 8th degree in it.

Martial Darwinism - if it doesnt work in a fight, why are you doing it?


The only way you can find out if it works is if you test yourself realistically, Muay Thai, Boxing, Full contact kickboxing (the minimal rule variety) Freestyle/Greco wrestling, BJJ, higher level Judo all offer that way of training, but its not for everyone. Belts on the basis of attendance and Katas, and predetermined defences against pre determined attacks, and classes where advanced students are at the front and beginners at the back, will always attract a certain kind of person. Is their belt worth as much as progression in the above styles, to them absolutely, and you wont convince them otherwise. If it makes people happy to achieve belts and badges and medals and certificates for criteria like above then cool, it says more about who they are than what the art is.

Is a bjj blackbelt my ultimate goal? Absolutely 100% no and it never has been. In fact because I started late in my twenties, I dont forsee it happening at all. If I cant roll consistently and tap Chris B and hang with other black belts, then I dont want it. My goal is to produce high quality grapplers with large cardio and miniscule egos. If I can get it across to someone that the hard work will pay off if you put the time on the mats in and that it wont be in the form of a belt but that you will feel comfortable in your own skin without an external validation of some kind then my job is done. I like training martial athletes, who take care of their fitness levels and try and lead a clean lifestyle. The word artist implies some form of ego nurturing has been taking place.

I have been training for 30 years. My advice is find something you like and keep working at it. If it can satisfy you without belts, certs or other paraphenalia all the better. If you are comfortable in yourself when you train, if you are in good physical shape, if you dont seek to constantly try and hurt and injure the people you train with to make yourself feel good, and if you can try as best you can to remain egoless, you will have a much more fulfilling experience as will the people around you. If you are better than those you roll / spar with, deliberately put yourself in bad positions to further your training, if in these situations you have to tap or stop, tap or stop, if the people you train with are like minded, they already know you are better and you dont have anything to prove. Dont kill every beginner you train with, if you get off on that sort of thing, you are in the wrong activity for you and for them. Dont roll or spar like its to the death every time, you will run out of training partners and be known as the guy who rolls with "retard" strength. Above all else have fun if you arent having that then why are you training it in the first place.

Roper

Nicely put Dave.

Tones69

Post of the year wha

Tim_Murphy

Great post Dave.

Jason Mc

a wise sage is born

Martin25

Hi Dave
I was also through the Wado Ryu school in the late 1970s and got my black belt in 1980. Some of the katas are still ingrained in my mind!
I'm still learning and try to have a beginner student attitude.
One of my instructors said that the difference he noticed in the Irish students was that they were more eager for learning the techniques.
I got a chance to train with Royce Gracie lately and it sure was an education.
Nice post and good luck with your training!
Martin

fedor29

I saw john kavanagh buy his black belt in penneys. chancers

Gorman

For the sake of discussion, who's skills & attributes would you prefer to have?

1) a top 100 in the world Judoka/wrestler

Or

2) a legit BJJ blackbelt who has never competed in MMA or in any of the high level BJJ comps.


My point being (and Im a HUGE BJJ nerd) is that a competive Judoka or wrestler is definitely "more special" than the average BJJ BB.

On the other side, the average BJJ BB is definitely way ahead of the average BB from other sports.

cowzerp

Gorman wrote: »

For the sake of discussion, who's skills & attributes would you prefer to have?

1) a top 100 in the world Judoka/wrestler

Or

2) a legit BJJ blackbelt who has never competed in MMA or in any of the high level BJJ comps.


My point being (and Im a HUGE BJJ nerd) is that a competive Judoka or wrestler is definitely "more special" than the average BJJ BB.

On the other side, the average BJJ BB is definitely way ahead of the average BB from other sports.

I think its a good question and 1 i cant answer but i would say the top Judoka are special aswell as olympic standard wrestlers, but what i will say is i'd imagine you would have to compete BJJ if you are going to get Black belt in BJJ, im open to correction though..

Nothingcompares

Gorman wrote: »

For the sake of discussion, who's skills & attributes would you prefer to have?

1) a top 100 in the world Judoka/wrestler

Or

2) a legit BJJ blackbelt who has never competed in MMA or in any of the high level BJJ comps.


My point being (and Im a HUGE BJJ nerd) is that a competive Judoka or wrestler is definitely "more special" than the average BJJ BB.

On the other side, the average BJJ BB is definitely way ahead of the average BB from other sports.

Would you prefer to play soccer in division 2 in England or play rugby at a provincial level in Ireland? Soccer player is making more money in a sport that spans the entire world, playing provincial rugby will be a decent career while it lasts.

A bjj blackbelt is not equivalent to olympic standard in judo/boxing/wrestling in my opinion. Being a mundial champion is similar. A judo olymipian is among the best of 100000s a BJJ world champion is among the best of 1000s

Ug Lee

Is it a case that a blackbelt in BJJ denotes mastery while a blackbelt in Karate (for example) denotes proficiency?

cowzerp

Ug Lee wrote: »

Is it a case that a blackbelt in BJJ denotes mastery while a blackbelt in Karate (for example) denotes proficiency?

Thats well put and probably the best answer on this topic.

Gorman

Nothingcompares wrote: »

A bjj blackbelt is not equivalent to olympic standard in judo/boxing/wrestling in my opinion. Being a mundial champion is similar. A judo olymipian is among the best of 100000s a BJJ world champion is among the best of 1000s

Yeah, I even say that a Mundial champ is not in the same league as a Judo world camp or Olympian. BJJ has a small talent pool compared to wrestling and Judo, plus BJJ is so disorganized compared to those sports. Wrestling/Judo have standard rules and organisations all over the world.

I'm sure in time that the BJJ talent pool will grow and that the mundials will truly be a world championships.

Musashi

It took me nearly six years to get a black belt in TKD.

On achieving it, I had to show a decent level of proficiency in TKD

Now, it would take me a lot longer to gain a similar rank in BJJ as there are no instructors locally. Given that other arts are around localities longer it is no surprise that there are more Black belts around in these other arts.

Anyone meeting me now would be very unimpressed with my TKD BB, but I didn't get it this week At the time I received it I was a fit and dedicated young fella dedicated to masochistic training levels. I'm still allowed to call myself a Dan grade though :rolleyes:

Hopefully BJJ will maintain it's high standards when there are more clubs and associations about competing for students.

Everybody who says at TKD long enough will get one.

I've seen some guys get BB for other services to the club like organising tournaments etc. I've also seen a lot of very good fighters fail the BB exams for not having a decent technical knowledge base. Is either fair? It's up to the examiners on the day and the standard they want to set. I know my old TKD club are currently setting the bar vey high for students and a lot of lads are failing even higher colour belt gradings.

It doesn't make them better fighters, but a BJJ/Judo player wouldn't do vey well in a TKD exam with all the high kicking expected of them. Unless trained for the requirements of a TKD style as well. Many people are looking for a hobby, passtime, way to spend time with the kids, activity session. Those people will hardly get a BB in BJJ or any of the other arts around the country, and will probably never compete or become "fighters". Those who choose to compete at a high level can do so in BJJ, Judo, Kickboxing or whatever other style floats their boat.

A black belt candidate on the day they achieve their belt is up to the standard required. If that doesn't impress anyone outside of that style, association or club is neither here nor there.