UK Independence Party

g5fd6ow0hseima

Right, surprisingly I havent came across a thread on this party yet.

I had a random conversation with a person a few days ago who was of the opinion that the UKIP are little more than the 'BNP on tour'

Their website describes them as:

Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union

considering that they have to state their opposition to racism on their website does this mean that they have been dubbed a far right party by popular opinion?

Considering the little fuss that has been brought up in relation to the fact that they have secured more seats in the EP than Labour, how is this percieved in Britain, with the focus being upon the BNP and their two seats, which have their obvious ramifications

wes

Well, to the best of my knowledge UKIP are not racists, but I don't think you have to be racist to be far-right. I think they are lumped in there, as they want to take the UK out of the EU.

ShooterSF

Actually reading through their site their beliefs seem to be similar to my own. Whether that's how they act is another question. Immigration controled (though I'm yet to see specifics) and a Europe of free trade rather than political issues.

Anything similar over here?

sink

I wouldn't describe them as racists, but they are right wing nationalists. Their literature is full of inaccuracies about the EU and full of nostalgia for the British Empire.

Their demographic is an odd one, they don't see themselves as European when quiet clearly they are. They cling to some kind of fantasy about Britain being apart and separate from all other when it is obvious Britain is as dependent upon the Global economy as anyone else. They are fuelled by the lies and misrepresentations that a printed daily in Rupert Murdoch's multiple trash newspapers, which paint the EU as some sort of fascist/communist dictatorship depending on the mood of the day. They are also pretty ignorant as to the basic functioning of the EU. They don't realise that UKIP has zero power to pursue their policy of withdrawal from their position as MEP's, but for some reason don't vote for them where they would have real power, Westminster!

PopeBuckfastXVI

ShooterSF wrote: »

Actually reading through their site their beliefs seem to be similar to my own. Whether that's how they act is another question. Immigration controled (though I'm yet to see specifics) and a Europe of free trade rather than political issues.

Anything similar over here?

Libertas.

ionix5891

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Libertas.

UKIP at least have some policies ...

ShooterSF

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Libertas.

For their chameleon polcies?

Also can one be a right wing, nationalist, libertarian?

ionix5891

from an economics point of view

am I the only who is seeing a contradiction in this sentence?

Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union

withdrawing from EU would mean the loss of access to the common market, where as libertarian policies are usually very pro free market

tolosenc

ShooterSF wrote: »

Also can one be a right wing, nationalist, libertarian?

Yes.

ShooterSF

ionix5891 wrote: »

from an economics point of view

am I the only who is seeing a contradiction in this sentence?



withdrawing from EU would mean the loss of access to the common market, where as libertarian policies are usually very pro free market

They're actually pro-free market from what I've read but oppose political rule from Europe.

Also from what I've read and to contribute to the OPs question they do actually have 2 black (One of whom is on the party's National Executive Comittee, whatever than entails) and 1 muslim representative so I don't think they're quite the BNP.

ionix5891

ShooterSF wrote: »

They're actually pro-free market from what I've read but oppose political rule from Europe.

Also from what I've read and to contribute to the OPs question they do actually have 2 black (One of whom is on the party's National Executive Comittee, whatever than entails) and 1 muslim representative so I don't think they're quite the BNP.

but if they leave the EU they loose access to the largest market in world, and they wont have a say or can do anything about it then killing remaining indigenous companies in UK

they could do a Norway on it, but thats even worse, gaining access to EU markets but in return having to implement laws without having a say in them

you cant have economic freedom without political strings attached

actually UKIP ever getting around to doing what they want, will be great for Ireland, as all them companies will come here most likely

bring it on

ShooterSF

ionix5891 wrote: »

but if they leave the EU they loose access to the largest market in world, and they wont have a say or can do anything about it then killing remaining indigenous companies in UK

they could do a Norway on it, but thats even worse, gaining access to EU markets but in return having to implement laws without having a say in them

you cant have economic freedom without political strings attached

actually UKIP ever getting around to doing what they want, will be great for Ireland, as all them companies will come here most likely

bring it on

It does seem odd. If I was to word the policy myself it would be "to establish a two tier Europe. One with free market rules and some common laws to cover that and another tier subject to all EU laws."

I actually meant to read up on the Norway situation. Must do that this evening, have become fascinated reading up on the UKIP at the minute.

ionix5891

start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_and_the_European_Union

basically Norway is a EFTA member, so have to implement EU directives in order to access market, but as they are not a member have no say in them

they also pay a quarter of a billion for the privilege a year

tho do remember Norway has a wealth of natural resources, UK on other hand is in worse situation than Ireland with North sea oil running out and a war on their hands, and they have higher debts than Weimar Germany and are still printing money like mad

greendom

So what do UKIP claim the benefits will be for the UK in leaving the EU. Do any of these stand up to scrutiny ?

conchubhar1

well i think they would advocate they will still be friendly with europe and still do a lot of business with them - they already dont use the euro

also, since the uk turnout is so low people dont seem bothered to connect with it. they feel more connected to mps
and a uk ruled 100% by them

whethere these have merits or not is antother story.

i do however applaud them for their views on our referendum vote - would never have heard of them otherwise. i wouldnt be a far right sort of person at all so

DB10

They are the BNP lite version. Without all the national front and media slander.

ShooterSF

DB10 wrote: »

They are the BNP lite version. Without all the national front and media slander.

Can I call labour the Communist-lite party so?

Hitman Actual

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i do however applaud them for their views on our referendum vote - would never have heard of them otherwise. i wouldnt be a far right sort of person at all so

I wasn't particularly impressed with their reaction, tbh. Didn't they use the Irish Tricolour as a tablecloth in a bar in Brussels, and wore leprechaun hats to the EU Parliament? While our No result might suit their agenda, I can't shake the feeling that they still look upon us with a certain degree of contempt. I don't think we should think of them as great new friends of the Irish; one of the great things about EU membership was that we could lessen our dependency on the UK, and I don't like the fact that UK influence (through tabloids, etc) fosters euroscepticism in Ireland.

conchubhar1

well thats your opinion

ah so you have respect for our flag and not our vote - bravo.

Pride Fighter

We had a UKIP MEP here, good thing the people of Munster were smart enough to defeat her.

Hitman Actual

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well thats your opinion

ah so you have respect for our flag and not our vote - bravo.

Is it your intention to drag every single thread off-topic with your opinion that the first referendum is the only one we should ever have on Lisbon? Have you any idea how tiresome it's getting, particularly as it was a topic that was covered here extensively by the end of last August, and with better arguments than the broken record we're getting from you? There's going to be a second referendum; get over it. [/off-topic]

USE

I'm glad to see that UKIP has changed its mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTZUD2Vrk0s

sceptre

ShooterSF wrote: »

Can I call labour the Communist-lite party so?

You can, though it might be fair to use it in a comparative sense like the guy you quoted rather than changing their name as one might read your suggestion.

sceptre

DB10 wrote: »

They are the BNP lite version. Without all the national front and media slander.

Erm, no they aren't.

The UKIP, much as I have little sympathy for their views, grew from the Anti-Federalist League, which was set up in the UK to oppose the Maastricht treaty. Their main aim is the UK withdrawing completely from the EU. They've also got various official core policies like more nuclear stations, more prisons and more control by individual schools on how they teach the national curriculum, changing it to allow for this process. They're like the Conservatives plus if they're like anything. They've kicked out their holocaust deniers. And I still don't like them.

The BNP was founded on racism. But ignoring that for a moment, I've got nothing really left on policies so I'd have to talk about their plans to reintroduce the death penalty and corporal punishment. Before sliding back to the racism thing as it's at the core of what they are, even if Nick Griffin calls it "ethno-nationalism":rolleyes:

I'd probably rather tear out a fingernail before voting for the UKIP but I'd vote for them 100 times over and saw off my own feet with a rusty spoon before voting for the BNP.

Happily, even having the misfortune to be Conservatives Plus doesn't make someone BNP-life. Just because they're silly people doesn't make them racist spannerheads.

Het-Field

obl wrote: »

Yes.

I would question that. Those in the US Patriot movememet renounce their citizenship, and their nationality.

I consider myself Libertarian, and many of my libertarian friends would be very cautious about allowing Nationalist sentiments permeate our politics. I would question UKIP's credentials as a "Libertarian Party". I have it on good authority that they do have a racist element within them, and they are the fine line between the Conservative Party, and the British National Party. Equally, with the exception of Conservative defector Bob Spink, the party has little or no presence in domestic UK politics.

the-island-man

ionix5891 wrote: »

from an economics point of view
withdrawing from EU would mean the loss of access to the common market, where as libertarian policies are usually very pro free market

i'm not positive but i think this is inaccurate, Iceland are not in the E.U but aren't they part of the E.U common market place?

I think a lot of the time parties like ukip are misunderstood all they want is to be free of external rule don't they have the right to express their opinion?
i mean good hard debate about the E.U is good, people fear parties like this cause they fear that their country will suffer if they loose funding from europe. So many people have said to me i'm voting yes in the lisbon treaty next time and when i ask them why they say something like europe has been good to us look at all the money they have given to us, look at all the infrastructure they have allowed us to build. This kind of narrow minded view is not good.
Why do we insist on blindly signing anything europe throws at us merely because we think we owe it to europe?
We owe it to ourselves to understand it before we put our name to it yet the state has not published a readable lisbon treaty and made it readily available to the people.

conchubhar1

switzerland?

i doubt they are out in the cold either (should i get my hat? no pun intended tho)

K-9

conchubhar1 wrote: »

switzerland?

i doubt they are out in the cold either (should i get my hat? no pun intended tho)

Do they get CAP Subsidies?

conchubhar1

I dunno

do they need it?

K-9

But we do or else lose the subsidies and also have to make up for them ourselves.

Anyway I think Switzerland has adopted many EU Laws in return for access to EU Markets.

conchubhar1

of course we do

meh, i dunno i presume they had to do something in exchange for it

sink

conchubhar1 wrote: »

meh, i dunno i presume they had to do something in exchange for it

The Swiss have to implement all EU directives pertaining to the common market and they don't get a say in their formulation. They are what has been termed a 'fax democracy', Brussels faxes directives to the Swiss and they implement them without question. If the Swiss decide not to implement directives their only option left is to leave the common market.

How that is a better situation to our own, when we actually have influence over the formulation and implementation of directives, is beyond me. But as is so common in this life it appears the people are more content with the illusion of sovereignty than the delusional fear of losing it by sitting at the decision making table.

conchubhar1

it is not better - who stated it was?

conchubhar1

sink wrote: »

But as is so common in this life it appears the people are more content with the illusion of sovereignty than the delusional fear of losing it by sitting at the decision making table.

''illusion of soverignty''

''more content''

hhm (the sound - if you dont know what that means, christ)

delusional fear of losing it - ah ya that never ever happened before
so feckin delusional (sarcasm)

sink

conchubhar1 wrote: »

delusional fear of losing it - ah ya that never ever happened before
so feckin delusional

Delusion of losing it by taking a seat a the decision making table. They're happier to have no say rather than to have some say, that is delusional.

oscarBravo

conchubhar1 wrote: »

illusion of soverignty

more content

hhm

delusional fear of losing it - ah ya that never ever happened before
so feckin delusional

No offence, but do you think you could post in, like, sentences? That way we might have an idea what you're talking about.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conchubhar1

i believe in them

i just dont practive them on a forum

what did you not believe? do you believe in a thing called loovve?

K-9

conchubhar1 wrote: »

''illusion of soverignty''

''more content''

hhm (the sound - if you dont know what that means, christ)

delusional fear of losing it - ah ya that never ever happened before
so feckin delusional (sarcasm)

Must have got it from some No voters. Sorry!

extragon

UKIP want unlimited free trade, and free movement of people ( British ).
They could achieve this by withdrawing from the EU, accepting all EU directives, and contributing to the EU budget. They would, however, rid the British of the tyranny of EU passports, car number plates, and the EU flag.

UKIP's policy: hide the EU.

conchubhar1

well for the british - that would be ideal

they are rich and would get most of the benefits and the party who gives the vote or advocates it gets to be a champion of the people

ireland withdrawing from the eu - would be, on the other hand, monumentaly stupid on so many levels

extragon

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well for the british - that would be ideal

Except there would be economic damage. They wouldn't accept all the directives, or want to pay all the money, and little by little things would fall apart. They might even realize that the sheer institutional dead weight of the EU, and the political project ( flags and all ) is needed to head off the constant tendancy towards short term protectionism in 27 countries.

Of course UKIP would hardly exist without its rich Atlanticist funders who may simple wish to reduce EU independence from the US.

conchubhar1

extragon wrote: »

Of course UKIP would hardly exist without its rich Atlanticist funders who may simple wish to reduce EU independence from the US.

ah, this is what the poster must have meant with delusional fear

extragon

Well I was thinking of that ex Clinton aide turned neo-Con imported as their chief strategist. Though more recently, playing the polls, they like to pretend they were against the Iraq war.
But UKIP would hardly exist without their peculiarly narrow funding base - a succession of millionaire benefactors, from Michael Holmes onwards, who - and I think it's a pretty safe generalization - are more Atlanticist that European in outlook.

conchubhar1

ye - okay, any evidence?

netron

They came 2nd nationally in the UK Euro elections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2009_(United_Kingdom)

Conservative : 27.7%
UKIP: 16.5%
Labour: 15.7%
Liberal Democrat: 13.7%
Green: 8.6%
BNP: 6.2%
SNP: 2.1%

As for accusations that they are "BNP lite" - well, in the early days they did attract the nastier elements of the uber-far right Conservative Party, but since Nigel Farage has become leader they have become far more Libertarian.
AFAIK a purge of the "nasty" wing has occured under his leadership.


There is an interesting snippet on Farage's wiki page , which kind of shows that he sure aint your traditional Tory unionist/loyalist type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#Prince_Charles

"Prince Charles gave a speech to the European Parliament on 14 February 2008, in which he called for EU leadership in the war against climate change. During the standing ovation that followed, Farage was the only MEP to remain seated and went on to describe the Prince's advisers as "naïve and foolish at best." "

netron

sink wrote: »

The Swiss have to implement all EU directives pertaining to the common market and they don't get a say in their formulation. They are what has been termed a 'fax democracy', Brussels faxes directives to the Swiss and they implement them without question. If the Swiss decide not to implement directives their only option left is to leave the common market.

How that is a better situation to our own, when we actually have influence over the formulation and implementation of directives, is beyond me. But as is so common in this life it appears the people are more content with the illusion of sovereignty than the delusional fear of losing it by sitting at the decision making table.

Ah - but its a bit more complicated than that - the Swiss FEDERAL government can be overruled at Canton level. Switzerland is a federation. So technically, the Swiss can say "yes , we implemented it" , while on the ground no such law has been passed.

Plus theres the matter of the Swiss being able to have citizen enabled referenda on any law they do not like.

conchubhar1

they did come second yes
the bnp mopped up the nastier elements no?

of course he is not the ''typical'' type - there are other parties like that......

if he doesnt want to stand for the prince - let him?
as for the comments, what about gordon browns comments on the polish recently?

he shouldnt make a comment on his views on their views and comments (farage that is)?