Rest the day after a LSR?

colblimp

Hi all. I've started training for my first marathon, which will be Dublin later this year. I did a 13 mile LSR this morning and was wondering whether it would be prudent to have a total rest day tomorrow, or should I just carry on training with reckless abandon?!! I feel a little stiff in the legs after the run but apart from that I'm fine. Any comments would be appreciated.

asimonov

Hi colblimp, I'd suggest you rest on Mondays after your lsr. Your body will need the time to recover after the effort and it means your Tuesday training can be meaningful. With 13 mile lsr's you'll physically be able to train on the Monday, but when you get to 18-20 mile lsr's, it might not be so easy! Some of the training plans do recommend light cross training as an option, but IMHO, just take it easy.

tergat

colblimp wrote: »

Hi all. I've started training for my first marathon, which will be Dublin later this year. I did a 13 mile LSR this morning and was wondering whether it would be prudent to have a total rest day tomorrow, or should I just carry on training with reckless abandon?!! I feel a little stiff in the legs after the run but apart from that I'm fine. Any comments would be appreciated.

colblimp,

Always get out and do something light on grass the day after a workout, long run or race. Even if it is a very slow 15-30 mins & stretching, this will aid recovery from the previous day a lot more than taking a total rest day.

Tergat

colblimp

Thanks very much for both of your responses, I'll definitely do something tomorrow - cheers!

--amadeus--

tergat wrote: »

colblimp,

Always get out and do something light on grass the day after a workout, long run or race. Even if it is a very slow 15-30 mins & stretching, this will aid recovery from the previous day a lot more than taking a total rest day.

Tergat

What would be your opinion on cross training on rest days or after an intensive session? Beneficial or is it better to stick with running if you're uninjured?

Actually over and and above that what's your opinion on rest days, how many do you think are optimal and how should they be spaced?

Thanks!

colblimp

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What would be your opinion on cross training on rest days or after an intensive session? Beneficial or is it better to stick with running if you're uninjured?

Actually over and and above that what's your opinion on rest days, how many do you think are optimal and how should they be spaced?

Thanks!

Good question. Would it be prudent to go for a swim the day after a LSR? As well as being good cross training, the water gives a sort of healing effect to tired muscles, doesn't it? I might actually do 15 - 20 minutes slow and then have a half hour swim in the morning - nice!

osnola ibax

I'm thinking 2 rest days after three and two days consecutive running in any given week

Running Bing

I take one day a week off but its more for mental reasons than physical. I think its nice to just have a day off where you can focus on other stuff (my mileage is'nt high though so I dont need 7 days).


Having said that I always run the day before a race now. I used to think the best thing to do was take a rest day before a race but I find my legs are pretty useless the day after if I do that.

rainbow kirby

colblimp wrote: »

Good question. Would it be prudent to go for a swim the day after a LSR? As well as being good cross training, the water gives a sort of healing effect to tired muscles, doesn't it? I might actually do 15 - 20 minutes slow and then have a half hour swim in the morning - nice!

Though my long runs aren't particularly long, I do like to go for a swim the day after my LSRs. I tend to find swimming wonderfully relaxing.

tergat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What would be your opinion on cross training on rest days or after an intensive session? Beneficial or is it better to stick with running if you're uninjured?

Actually over and and above that what's your opinion on rest days, how many do you think are optimal and how should they be spaced?

Thanks!

amadeus,

I think cross training is beneficial both for strengthening muscles and also for the heart/lungs. However remember the principle of "Specificity" which states that all training for a particular sport should be specific to that sport. So if you are a runner you need to run for specific adaptions to take place in the muscles. You will recruit different muscle fibres on a bike than you will do running.....On the other hand if you a very injury prone and can only manage a certain amount of running, then cross training is an excellent tool to add more stimu.

However I think if you can go out and do an easy jog instead of cross training then do it. KEEP EASY RUNS EASY THOUGH. I think the pace you run on easy days is very personal. A lot depends upon your capacity to recover. Some people can run faster than others on easy days but no faster on race days. I think the important thing is this: do what works for you. And, to be more specific, pay attention to how well you can run key workouts and races. If you feel tired during the early part of key workouts or races it's a sure sign that your easy days are too fast.

Each person must use principles of training. Principles like consistency, variety of stimulus, individualisation, gradual-progression, and moderation are the bedrock of success. How they are applied to each person is not much different; it's the speeds that matter, and the amounts, and the frequencies.


Re rest days it really depends on the individual (age, running experience, injury history, work/family commitments etc). If a runner has no issues with injuries and chronic pain, then running daily or twice daily (even better) is the path to success. There is no two ways about it. The more you run while staying within your personal limits at the moment, the better you get...especially in terms of aerobic efficiency. As a general rule, if you have injuries, rest completely and do therapies that get rid of the problem. Don't run through injuries unless you are close to a planned big race that you have put a lot of energy into preparing for.

Taking days off should be merely for planned recovery periods, not as a scapegoat and not as a mythical "it helps me" philosophy, based on lack of commitment. Many, many runners believe they "need" days off, only to find when they committed to training they improved more than they ever have. Every day you don't run you lose efficiency at a rate of 3 to 1. One day off is like going backward 3 days in your training program. I read once that Dr. Edward Coyle (American?), exercise physiologist of renown, has studied detraining effects and concluded just that!

I was in contact with a coach who measured runners in two specific ways. He had them run at 80% of VO2 max on a treadmill - 10 minutes - the day before and after a day off from running. Predictably, their heart rate and their blood lactates were higher after a day off. And, in most cases, their perceived exertion worsened, too. That is, 80% felt harder than it did two days earlier (before the day off from running). He estimated that 80% of runners do NOT benefit from a day off and only 20% do. And the 20% that do need it because they typically lacked self-control in their training prior to the day off. That is, they were over-reaching for a few days prior to the day off (working too hard for their current ability) and the day off was a corrective measure for lack of self-control or lack of self-knowledge.

IF you are the 1 in 5 (20%), then a day off or two each week is probably going to correct your over-reaching tendencies. Then, take the day off or two. That's ok. Just don't start taking days off out of habit. That's not smart. That's lazy! If your not a serious runner, not in it to improve optimally, then take days off and ignore the information stated above. It doesn't matter, then.

There are ways to take a day off here and there and be succesful. One must follow strict rules to avoid injuries and setbacks due to days off. For example, never run a hard day or race after a rest day. The days that follow that hard day or race often tend to be compromised, first of all, but second of all injury rates goes up quite a bit. So, if you take a day off, be sure to run easily the day after. That will save you the grief of injury and sore legs for 2-3 days.

When you take days off, you may end up getting more injured - just after you return. The problem with taking days off is three-fold. First, you lose blood volume, which effect VO2 max and efficiency. The problem is, you gain a bit of musculuar power and you are fooled into thinking that the day off "did some good." The truth is, people push too hard, relative to their cardio-vascular capacity, when they return because their legs are more powerful (due to glycogen top up). The second problem with taking a day off is you simply lose touch with effort, coordination is reduced, even though power or feeling of power is present. If you lose sensory awareness, you don't realize you are pushing too hard. The third problem with taking days off is mental - you think you can push harder when you come back after resting. Pushing harder is often NOT a good idea.

Now, I'll throw another thing out there: run more often. Yep, run more often! Cut the length of your runs and run more often at an easy pace. Instead of doing an 8 miler at your normal pace run two 4 milers on some of your days. Your body will start to feel better when you do this on your easy days. Once again frequency of running is directly linked to efficiency. If you run more often, you improve your efficiency. You run along using less energy.

Have you ever noticed that many of the elites do a lot of double days? Often, elite runners won't run more than about an about an hour in any single run. Why do you think that is? Is it because they are too lazy to run further? Not a chance! It's because they know that they can do more volume per day and per week if they keep individual runs under a certain limit. There's a lot of trauma to connective tissue and cell membranes that happens beyond a certain amount of distance work.

But the truth is the same principle can be used for lower mileage runners. Focus on doing your key workouts twice per week well (very well) and just put in easy distance in whatever way makes your body feel good the remainder of the days. Doubling takes organisation and sacrifice but it does pay big dividends - even as short as 3-5 weeks for some runners.

Tergat

Racing Flat

Pure gold as usual tergat, cheers mate.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

Pure gold as usual tergat, cheers mate.

+1. Tergat you don't appear to post that often but when you do they are pure gems. That's 2 brilliant posts today. Cheers

--amadeus--

I'm with RR on that. I've often wondered about gathering the very best posts into a kind of super "Everything you ever needed to know" thread but it would probably kill conversation everywhere else

Abhainn

colblimp wrote: »

Hi all. I've started training for my first marathon, which will be Dublin later this year. I did a 13 mile LSR this morning and was wondering whether it would be prudent to have a total rest day tomorrow, or should I just carry on training with reckless abandon?!! I feel a little stiff in the legs after the run but apart from that I'm fine. Any comments would be appreciated.

Take the dog for a good walk (if you have one:)). The dog will love it and you'll legs will be getting the benefit of increased blood flow to provide that important muscle recovery .

Woddle

tergat wrote: »

Taking days off should be merely for planned recovery periods, not as a scapegoat and not as a mythical "it helps me" philosophy, based on lack of commitment. Many, many runners believe they "need" days off, only to find when they committed to training they improved more than they ever have. Every day you don't run you lose efficiency at a rate of 3 to 1. One day off is like going backward 3 days in your training program. I read once that Dr. Edward Coyle (American?), exercise physiologist of renown, has studied detraining effects and concluded just that!

Tergat

I'm very guilty of this, thanks for the kick up the backside

--amadeus--

First things first - I have a dog for hire if anyone wants to walk him

Second - Tergat what you have said above makes perfect sense and I can see how it would apply to me personally or an experienced runner. However I am mentoring a group of novices through thier first ever marathon training program (for Dublin) and the intention is to run the DCM with a target of sub 4:30 for teh group.

We will be following teh Hal Higdon Novice program (here) which has 1 rest day and 1 cross training day per week. For novices and those with a low enough mileage base (eg this schedule builds from 15 to a peak of 40 miles in a week) would you still advocate running on rest days?

Would walking deliver the same benefits for the novices? How would you balance the risk of overtraining? I am concerned that running on teh rest days will increase the risk of injury for my beginners as they wont have teh physiological adaptations needed to sustain 18 weeks of 6 - 7 day per week running, would you agree or is it your experience that the adaptations are made quite rapidly?

Thanks!

tergat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

First things first - I have a dog for hire if anyone wants to walk him

Second - Tergat what you have said above makes perfect sense and I can see how it would apply to me personally or an experienced runner. However I am mentoring a group of novices through thier first ever marathon training program (for Dublin) and the intention is to run the DCM with a target of sub 4:30 for teh group.

We will be following teh Hal Higdon Novice program (here) which has 1 rest day and 1 cross training day per week. For novices and those with a low enough mileage base (eg this schedule builds from 15 to a peak of 40 miles in a week) would you still advocate running on rest days?

Would walking deliver the same benefits for the novices? How would you balance the risk of overtraining? I am concerned that running on teh rest days will increase the risk of injury for my beginners as they wont have teh physiological adaptations needed to sustain 18 weeks of 6 - 7 day per week running, would you agree or is it your experience that the adaptations are made quite rapidly?

Thanks!

amadeus,

With those just starting off running or real novice runners, having cross-training days and rest days is fine. Once they keep the training consistant, overtime they can gradually increse their volume of running. Remember though its a long term process when trying to increase running volume there are no short cuts.

Walking is fine also but aqua jogging or swimming would be better. Remember again that all types of individuals adapt to training in different ways. You as the coach will have all the ingredients neccessary to make the perfect meal. You have to use these ingredients along the journey to suit the individual tastes so to speak.

Tergat

Racing Flat

So, tergat, are you essentially saying that a runner who typically does not get injured and run down should never take a rest day when in training/racing mode?

Stupid_Private

Racing Flat wrote: »

So, tergat, are you essentially saying that a runner who typically does not get injured and run down should never take a rest day when in training/racing mode?

I was chatting with a coach recently and he said "I take it you're training seven days". When I said that I usually take a day off once a week he told me that my day off should be a thirty minute easy run. I'm not looking forward to this new seven day summer routine!!

HardyEustace

This thread is very interesting but one point I would like clarification on -

in the vast majority of the training plans, there are rest days. Why is this if perceived wisdom is that you shouldn't have rest days? Is it to help people who have certain perceptions about rest days?

colblimp

Abhainn wrote: »

Take the dog for a good walk (if you have one:)). The dog will love it and you'll legs will be getting the benefit of increased blood flow to provide that important muscle recovery .

Ha, I don't have a dog but I could go for a walk the day after a LSR. Just to throw something else into the discussion fire, I've just bought me a pair of 2XU compression tights this morning and am wearing them at the moment. They're going to help me, aren't they?

Thanks again for everyone's input, I'm glad I started this thread now.

tergat

Racing Flat wrote: »

So, tergat, are you essentially saying that a runner who typically does not get injured and run down should never take a rest day when in training/racing mode?

Racing Flat,

Yes most definetly but work towards it overtime. So if you have been used to 2 rest days a week, try making it 1 and eventually add in an extra 20-50 mins instead of that one rest day. It takes a small bit of time to adapt to, but will lead to better race performances.

Remember it is an EASY run not a workout you are adding in. If you can remember the following American Coaches maxim, you'll be ok: "Never run super-hero workouts!" Or in the words or Lydiard - "Train, don't Strain!"

Tergat

tergat

HardyEustace wrote: »

This thread is very interesting but one point I would like clarification on -

in the vast majority of the training plans, there are rest days. Why is this if perceived wisdom is that you shouldn't have rest days? Is it to help people who have certain perceptions about rest days?

HardyEustace,

On rest days: if your sick, rest and don't run. IF your injured, the same. IF it is a planned rest break at the end of a long, hard season, sure! Otherwise, taking days off is not recommended. If you take one off, it's for mental relaxation, not typically because your body really needs it. A slow run when you are tired actually does you far more good than resting.

Do I take days off? Yes, I do. Am I a highly competitive runner? No, not anymore. If I were, I would not take days off.

I've coached many runners 18+ and some will ask about taking days off. I insist that they do not take days off unless their is a serious problem. Reluctantly, they follow my advice, and the results are rather amazing. Nearly every runner who has typically taken a day or two off per week reports that they are running faster than ever, feeling stronger than ever, and recognizing that taking days off is mental in most cases.

I think all the training plans out there are over protective of people as such. If you are a seasoned runner then there is no need as such for days off, why not add in one or two 20-40 min easy runs instead.

Rest days are not harmful if you personally believe it helps you. Again it is an individual thing. I think you have a point re people having certain perceptions about rest days, this is probably why you see rest days in all the training plans out there.

Tergat

ManFromAtlantis

after a hard run or lsr i always feel sore/stiff the next day but a day off doesnt make it much better for me. i must try and do some very gentle jogging instead just to see if it helps.
interesting topic - i had always just assumed till now that a day off was the biz after tough day.
thanks.

hunnymonster

As the others have said, great posts tergat.

The place I feel rest days have the most benefit are for people just starting out. It's all very well to tell a seasoned runner to do a very easy run after a tough day but a new runner has neither the experience or the range of efforts/speed to do the same.

I mostly agree with the specificity (run fast to be a faster runner etc) arguments but for new runners, cross training may in fact be more beneficial, both because effort is reined in and they are still adapting to fitness in general and failing the opportunity for a gentle swim or cycle, then a rest day may be preferable to hammering it out. Almost all of us have been at the stage where every run was a hard effort.