Speaking of browers ?

bongotime

whats the best open source web brower. as Im sick of using mozilla safari and internet explorer dont get me started

ethernet

Safari? It's not open source!

If Mozilla Firefox isn't taking your fancy, try Mozilla Seamonkey. Very similar but more of an all-in-one job.

Then there's Chrome/Chromium. Browsing on steroids speed-wise.

Then with the Unix-like OSes, you can try Konqueror or Epiphany.

Opera is very impressive but not open source

croo

ethernet wrote: »

Then there's Chrome/Chromium. Browsing on steroids speed-wise.

Not having windows I couldn't checkout chrome (and their V8 javascript engine), but it seems that mozilla have rewritten their javascript engine "Tracemonkey" so as of 3.5 we can expect to have "browsing on steroids" on linux too Supposedly it is even faster than chrome! It can be tested in the current FF 3.5 beta release ... I haven't gotten around to that myself... stuck on 3g internet connection is I fear will remain the limiting factor for me.

@Bongotime. I don't bother much with them myself, but with so many plugins to add functionality & themes to change the look&feel how do you get sick (bored?) of FF?

ethernet

Kept Windows in a VM for these moments!

There's the Chromium spin-off for Mac and Unix-like OSes. Can download here. Be warned: expect bugs! It even says not to download the software but it should at least let you try it out.

bongotime

hey buddy using seamonkey is o.k its very mozilla there and chrome is fast looks nice visuals. I dont know buddy. I have 02 broadband it sucks ass my total signal is 1 mb all day ever day.

just downloaded

K meloen and flock 2.5. Hopefully they run fast

mozilla runs fast enough

lucideer

Why does it need to be open source. Open source is a fantastic system for developers, hence this forum, but I don't see the benefit to users. Would you not consider a closed-source browser if it was better than Firefox?

croo

lucideer wrote: »

Why does it need to be open source. Open source is a fantastic system for developers, hence this forum, but I don't see the benefit to users. Would you not consider a closed-source browser if it was better than Firefox?

Well, my opinion would be if the source is not available the security of the software can only be guessed at. If the code is available you can be sure any security flaws will be quickly found, highlighted and fixed. Given the browser represents my "frontline" on the internet, I personally believe I am better secured. I also believe that opening the code for the world to see results in improved, better quality, code in general.

lucideer

croo wrote: »

Well, my opinion would be if the source is not available the security of the software can only be guessed at. If the code is available you can be sure any security flaws will be quickly found, highlighted and fixed. Given the browser represents my "frontline" on the internet, I personally believe I am better secured. I also believe that opening the code for the world to see results in improved, better quality, code in general.

In theory you may be right, but I prefer to judge such things on experience. As a user of the Opera browser for many years, I have found the opposite is true. While I cannot dive into the source and verify for myself the measures they have taken to secure my computers, my impression of the policy of the company and the developers of the browser has been that it is far stricter than any other vendor (often even to the detriment of things like website compatibility unfortunately).

Anyway, you asked to be recommended an open source browser after growing tired of Mozilla. I personally switched to Opera after years of frustration with Firefox. I was (and still am in many ways) very much enamoured with all things open source, in particular the general ethos of FOSS development, but I have since been very pleasantly surprised to find that it is most certainly not the only way to develop incredibly good software.

Anyway, if you're interested, try it. As I said, FOSS is only a direct benefit to developers. It may in theory lead to better software, but in this particular subjective case I personally have found that it hasn't.

croo

lucideer wrote: »

As I said, FOSS is only a direct benefit to developers.

Well if you say so it must be fact then ... :rolleyes:

lucideer

croo wrote: »

Well if you say so it must be fact then ... :rolleyes:

Well I'd be very interested to learn of any other direct benefit. I wasn't being coy or conceited in saying so. I love FOSS software. I was simply stating what I thought was obvious, I guess you know better but you're not telling.

croo

This begins to feel like one of the discussions on god. You say god is great. I say I'm not sure he even exists and you say prove to me he doesn't.
You are the one making statements of fact, so I fail to see why I must provide evidence.
Given that so many (non-developer) users are happily using FOSS, so I do not feel it necessary to provide evidence of the obvious. There must be some direct benefit, otherwise why would they use it? You sure you cannot think of one reason? You say you were "enamoured with all things open source"... why did you use it? was it only as a developer you were involved in FOSS? Never as a user?

lucideer

Sorry, I think you misinterpreted my motives. I didn't mean to challenge you to justify your post, I was actually asking a genuine curious question.

I did say I was "enamoured with all things open source" but this arose mostly out of an interest in it from a sociological/political point of view and a partiality to the general ethos of the whole "movement" more than actual direct benefit to me (sofar)...

Johnboy1951

bongotime wrote: »

whats the best open source web brower. as Im sick of using mozilla safari and internet explorer dont get me started

'Best' is a very personal decision.

You didn't say what platform/OS.

Presently I am using Arora; light and fast and based on WebKit.
I also tried Midori which is similar.

Arora is cross platform I believe.
It is still in beta it seems .....

croo

lucideer wrote: »

I did say I was "enamoured with all things open source" but this arose mostly out of an interest in it from a sociological/political point of view and a partiality to the general ethos of the whole "movement" more than actual direct benefit to me (sofar)...

Okay, so if I understand now, you never actually used open source software but are intrigued by the idea?

Okay well I can speak from personal experience.
I use open source because it does what I need.

I believe the Firefox browser is secure, its plugins make it very extendible meaning I can find neat little additions that make it fit my needs better; NoScript to block scripts running by default to help make it more secure, adblock so I am not distracted by moving adverts as I read the content, foxclocks providing a world clock because I deal with many people spread around the world and there are many more...
I use thunderbird to collect my emails and manage my calendar mostly because I was using a mixture of operating systems and it was available on them all so I could share the postbox that contained the emails locally on all machines/OS I used. I like its spam management and I guess I continue to use it now that I only use linux mostly from habit but also because it does what I need it to.

I use the excellent Inkscape for when I need to create some nice graphics, Gimp when I want to “touch up” some photos, Dia when I must create diagrams. Freemind to collect and structure my thoughts, openOffice to write them down or just need a spreadsheet to make sure the Bank balance or ESB bill is correct!

I use GnoTimeTracker to monitor how much time I spend of projects & tasks, TaskJuggler to make & manage the my project plans.

I listen to my music as I work on Amarok audio player – I like how it can automatically pull in info on the artist or lyrics and I particularly like how it can integrate with last.fm to suggest songs from my collection based on the listening or suggestions of others across the internet and thereby creates a continuous dynamic playlist. I play GNOME Sudoku or AisleRiot card games to take quick breaks from work... and I use these all of these on a variety of Linux distributions.

These are all open source.

Sometimes I use these specific programs simply because they are there on my Linux system, others I sought out because I felt they were the best tools available to me.

I use Linux first and foremost because I can trust it. It is safe & secure and unlike windows the providers of it are trustworthy – they have not been found in a court to have cheated and abused the trust of their customers in order to feed their own greed. In my eyes MS are completely untrustworthy – they cheated me once and I do not intend to give them the opportunity to cheat me again.

When you remove windows the choice of other applications is naturally different, but I believe the above examples are all equal if not better than anything I used on windows.

Of course open source also comes with the added advantage that it comes with a zero price tag... although I like to donate something for those applications I use regular. I have bought many closed source applications over the years that provided bad quality, support & overall user experience. Paying for a product doesn't ensure its quality. Likewise getting it for free does not mean a lack of quality. If it does the job, I will use it. I would argue that the existence of open source has made many closed source applications either up their game or go bust. I would also argue that were it not for the likes of Linux we would truly know the power of the MS monopoly – they have proved they have enough money to make even the US government change its mind!

But that is specific to MS, in general, another reason for me to use FOSS is less risk. I have on occasions used free but closed source products (I like to try before I consider buying), but in my experience these tend to be marketing ploys; either their product is very buggy and they are looking for cheap testers or it is just a sweetener to get you hooked then they look for the price later, either by discontinuing the free product or disabling it in some way to encourage you to upgrade to their fee based product. The problem is not the price per se but that they are not open & upfront about this - so I am always wary. However, when Redhat tried a similar move with linux, a group of industrious people simply forked it to create CentOS... so being FOSS reduced the risk to the users.

Finally, I have an issue with software patents. I do not believe they foster advancements but actually slow it down. I do believe the system is abused, with ridiculously simple & obvious ideas patented and the responsibility for resolving the disputes handed to the courts where money talks (the best lawyers are nearly always more expensive!). Now on the face of it this might not matter to your Joe Bloggs user but it should because a patent represents are distortion of the market – it provides a monopoly were none should exist and so WILL cost them eventually be that in money and/or better products. Using FOSS is a way to counter the patent treat in my eyes.

The bottom line is many people use open source products without being developers, they must do so for a reason. So there must be an advantage they see. I have given some of mine, I am sure there are others.

lucideer

croo wrote: »

Okay, so if I understand now, you never actually used open source software but are intrigued by the idea?

Ok, seriously! What's with the low wit here, I don't think I was rude. I've used a lot of open source software, I'd say most of what I use is FOSS. I used Firefox for a few years before switching to Opera.

croo wrote: »

Okay well I can speak from personal experience.
I use open source because it does what I need.

In my personal experience, FOSS happens to generally be better than closed source software, which is why I use it mostly. But I judge each piece of software by it's own merits. If a software is open source, this means a certain methodology is used to develop it which can lead to good softare. So merits arise out of it being open source. I can't see how it being open source is a merit in itself - it often leads to great features, but IT isn't a feature. I was asking, since you think differently, why you believe it is. I wasn't challenging you, I'd be extremely interested to know.

croo wrote: »

I believe the Firefox browser is secure, its plugins make it very extendible meaning I can find neat little additions that make it fit my needs better; NoScript to block scripts running by default to help make it more secure, adblock so I am not distracted by moving adverts as I read the content, foxclocks providing a world clock because I deal with many people spread around the world and there are many more...
I use thunderbird to collect my emails and manage my calendar mostly because I was using a mixture of operating systems and it was available on them all so I could share the postbox that contained the emails locally on all machines/OS I used. I like its spam management and I guess I continue to use it now that I only use linux mostly from habit but also because it does what I need it to.

You didn't ask for information about closed source browsers, so perhaps it was rude of me to reply, but I was curious as to why you were discounting all closed source software from the offset without even considering that it may suit your needs. I think the recommedation I'd make might suit your needs if you had not discounted it outright. Opera does not have Firefox's XUL based add-ons framework, but it is by far the most customisable browser without add-ons, which in my experience allows me to tweak it to fit my needs better. It has NoScript built in, it has a very basic, inflexible version of Adblock built in, but a more featureful addon is available, I've never heard of foxclocks, but I'm sure it can have something similar as it seems a simple functionality to create. It has a mail client built in as well, but unfortunately no calendar (it's one deficiency for me), and it runs extremely well on Linux in my experience (first Ubuntu, now Puppy). If it suits your needs better than any FOSS (as it does mine), I don't understand how it not being open source is a limitation in any way, that's all I was asking.


The rest of your post goes on to argue the merits of certain FOSS apps which is unneccessary as I'm well aware of them. I use Inkscape and GIMP a huuge amount. I've used Dia once before but don't really have much of a need for it. I prefer MS Excel2007 to OpenOfficeCalc as has a lot of functionality I use not available in OO - Solver for example was added in OO3 finally but is still a little deficient by comparison, there are other limitations. I've never heard of Freemind, but will look into it.

etc. etc.

croo wrote: »

In my eyes MS are completely untrustworthy – they cheated me once and I do not intend to give them the opportunity to cheat me again.

After my comment about Excel, you probably think I'll disagree here, but I absolutely don't. I am unfortunately reliant on some Windows functionality, but would love to be freed of it. Also, if you're into anti-MS campaigns, you can't really get any more anti-MS than the Opera community. Have a look at the reactions silly jcxp.net campaign.

croo wrote: »

Finally, I have an issue with software patents. I do not believe they foster advancements but actually slow it down.

I would extend this to patents in general personally. Anything to do with intellectual propery at all. But this is my idealism speaking, what I'd like in an ideal world. Until then, I use what works best.

croo wrote: »

The bottom line is many people use open source products without being developers, they must do so for a reason. So there must be an advantage they see. I have given some of mine, I am sure there are others.

All of the advantages you've mentioned are independent of open source, you have named a load of great products. There are also a load of crap FOSS products and a load of great closed source software (though admittedly less in my experience). I just don't understand why you would exclude the latter from your selection, if it's featureset genuinely serves your purpose better.

"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on RMS. I'm not interested. 99% of that I run tends to be open source, but that's my choice, dammit." -- Linus Torvalds

bongotime

using flock the last 2 weeks. its great sterdy works great no problems has a few kinks.

but I still love my rss feeds drop downs with mozilla.

but I barely get pop ups with flock at all. mozilla is crazy for pop ups.

after I use the net I like to use zero trace and after using mozilla it picks up loads of files.

using flock and then using zero trace nothing at all.

only reason i'd go back to mozilla is for the cool rss feed

croo

Ok, seriously! What's with the low wit here, I don't think I was rude.

I think we have some crossed wires...
I wasn't trying to be funny or rude, I'm sorry if it came across so.

I was puzzled as to what your “motivation” was and so was attempting to find out if I had understood correctly. This is a forum on “open source” but for some reason many wish to discuss close source applications. Sometimes it is out of ignorance because the software is “free”, sometimes it's a pitch for their own package. I was trying to ascertain what your reason was.

But firstly, I didn't ask about information on any browsers... open or closed.
My first comment was in reaction to your “Open source is a fantastic system for developers... but I don't see the benefit to user” comment. Which you felt the need to repeat to close your comment, so this came across quiet strongly to me. Well, I felt open source software has as much to offer users as closed source!

Then you mentioned your interest in open source was “out of an interest in it from a sociological/political point of view”, so now I wondered did you actually use open source.. hence my comment/question (which offended you) and an explanation of what I use as a "user" and why, i.e. reasons other than the development methodology!

But I do, also, believe open source is more than a development methodology. In this I would be closer to RMS then Linus. I do feel somewhat sorry for RMS, he builds this idea of “Freedom” software from the ground up... puts his words into action in the form of the GNU tools... was working on a kick ass kernel to go with it and this kid releases his minix based kernel wrapped in the GNU tools and (to the most people) has bagged all the honours.

Anyway that's beside the point. The extra benefit I see is the “Freedom” extolled by RMS. I agree with something like a browser it doesn't effect my day to day use of the application but believe it is perhaps the most important thing long term.

I just don't understand why you would exclude the latter from your selection, if it's featureset genuinely serves your purpose better.

Well as I mentioned, it wasn't I who asked for other open source browsers but I can say that if nobody uses open source applications they will not improve. So, on occasions, I will use an application because I would like it to be better – I use it to support the project & have an input that will hopefully help it improve! If no community develops around an open source application it will most likely not evolve. For example, I have been using linux since the early 90s. Initially it was an oddity I ran on a machine in the corner... a learning experience for X & networks mostly. By the early 00s it was a solid server that I could rely upon, but it wasn't until maybe 4-5 years ago that I felt confident to be using it fulltime on the desktop too. Now I believe it is a real alternative for all. You can be sure that wouldn't have happened if a community had not developed around it. A community that stuck by it and used it even if it wasn't perfect, a community that worked hard to help improve it.

So featureset is not the only point to consider, in my opinion.

croo

bongotime wrote: »

using flock the last 2 weeks. its great sterdy works great no problems has a few kinks.

but I still love my rss feeds drop downs with mozilla.

but I barely get pop ups with flock at all. mozilla is crazy for pop ups.

after I use the net I like to use zero trace and after using mozilla it picks up loads of files.

using flock and then using zero trace nothing at all.

only reason i'd go back to mozilla is for the cool rss feed

Does the Distrust plugin provide zero trace or does it just reduce it?
I'm coming across a real defending of mozilla on this forum when actually I have no great preference.
Flock looks very interesting thanks for the tip

ps. I get no popups on FF.. could that be an option setting?

lucideer

Sorry croo, I wasn't really paying a whole lot of attention to usernames. Mistook you for the OP. Sorry about that. In that case I suppose a lot of what I said was fairly irrelevant. :P

As for discussing closed source in an open source forum, I was confused as to why the OP chose to ask such a question specifically in a FOSS forum, and not a general software one, therefore restricting their options. Hence my curious question.


Anyway, I suppose getting back on topic, I could give my opinion on the aforementioned Flock. In my experience it's truly awful - bloat epitomised. SeaMonkey would be my personal choice of all the open source browsers, if I were so restricted. While many don't want some of SM's extra features, they result in a surprisingly light-weight browser all the same.