Kick Drums

SteveDon

How important do you think a good kick drum is to the listening experience of a track?

I would rate it very highly, i find it really annoying when i listen to a track which otherwise is really great with really cool synths but is let down by its weak bass drum.

I tend to like to sound of the classic 808 or 909 style kicks and tend to use them alot in my tracks. Do you have a favourite kick drum?

seannash

it goes without saying that vengeance sample packs will get a mention.they cover alot of bases with those packs.
on my last tune i actually just robbed the kick from another track i had in my collection.tiny bit of eq and it was ready to go,sounded perfect actually:D

jtsuited

Personally I hate the vengeance kicks. Too dirty and flat sounding in general. The sample magic ones are very good.

But the all time best way to do it is to use the Riemann Kollektion (florian meindl's sample pack). In it you get 'construction material'.

This means you can use the old trick of three separate samples for your kick sound (low end, transient, and character).

Can make some great kicks doing this.

Failing that, use an 808 and stick it through some nice EQ and compression.

Neurojazz

jtsuited wrote: »

Personally I hate the vengeance kicks. Too dirty and flat sounding in general. The sample magic ones are very good.

But the all time best way to do it is to use the Riemann Kollektion (florian meindl's sample pack). In it you get 'construction material'.

This means you can use the old trick of three separate samples for your kick sound (low end, transient, and character).

Can make some great kicks doing this.

Failing that, use an 808 and stick it through some nice EQ and compression.

Looking at the Vengeance bassdrum samples on an analyzer shows that the actual body of the 'bass/sub' happens after the inital kick... a real pain, and very shabby. I think Damagedtrax recommened taking a 909 and shelving heavy and adding a 808 beneath - then you have control over both parts of the sound - or even better to take the three as you said - will try that out

jtsuited

Neurojazz wrote: »

Looking at the Vengeance bassdrum samples on an analyzer shows that the actual body of the 'bass/sub' happens after the inital kick... a real pain, and very shabby.

that drives me nuts. find the same problem in a lot of kick drums actually.
think it has to do with the compression release somewhere in the signal chain when they were making the sample.

seannash

when compressing kicks arent you meant to have the attack at something like 10ms so it lets the initial punch in before it compresses?

Neurojazz

Yeah, slopes in *wack* then the comp kicks in - usually at something like 3:1 or 4:1 - but dependant on what your'e pushing through it.

I must say though i do disgusting things to Vengenace sounds to make them work - sometimes have more than one comp also.

Neurojazz

jtsuited wrote: »

that drives me nuts. find the same problem in a lot of kick drums actually.
think it has to do with the compression release somewhere in the signal chain when they were making the sample.

I shelve that rubbish sub off then use the VBAudio sculptura to 'breed' the low end downwards to recreate sub that is in time.

jtsuited

seannash wrote: »

when compressing kicks arent you meant to have the attack at something like 10ms so it lets the initial punch in before it compresses?

depends. if you've a kick that's fairly flat sounding ie. not much punch, then you can leave a good bit of attack time to let the transient through.
and vice versa - if it's too poppy you can just level out the peak using a fast attack.

jtsuited

Neurojazz wrote: »

I shelve that rubbish sub off then use the VBAudio sculptura to 'breed' the low end downwards to recreate sub that is in time.

i do the same with logic's test oscillator and a gate keyed with the kick.

think i win 'most obvious technical tip so far on this forum award'!:D

Neurojazz

jtsuited wrote: »

i do the same with logic's test oscillator and a gate keyed with the kick.

think i win 'most obvious technical tip so far on this forum award'!:D

Can you make a detailed post with pictures? for the whole 3 part bass drum processing and the sub re-creation - then i can rip it into the final tutorials section?

seannash

maybe we could post up some samples etc and build a nice database of good kicks(obviously not straight up samples from sample packs)

Neurojazz

I've got samples from old kit days - masses of them - will be sorting links out over the coming weeks.

All copyright free - not from sample CDs.

I also have masses of analog samples from a huge modular synth that i abused for months and painstakingly cut up for use as hits / percussion.

seannash

Neurojazz wrote: »

I've got samples from old kit days - masses of them - will be sorting links out over the coming weeks.

All copyright free - not from sample CDs.

I also have masses of analog samples from a huge modular synth that i abused for months and painstakingly cut up for use as hits / percussion.

nice!!!!!

jtsuited

Neurojazz wrote: »

Can you make a detailed post with pictures? for the whole 3 part bass drum processing and the sub re-creation - then i can rip it into the final tutorials section?

yeah cool. will do it later. i'm in the middle of doing a track today so I must remember to take screenshots when i get to this part (i put in my sub last).

Neurojazz

Cheers - in the meantime - here's what i can do / host

http://spiralking.com/samples/

jtsuited

nice one.

Our first 2 page thread!!

Oh how quickly they grow up....

jtsuited

Neurojazz wrote: »

Cheers - in the meantime - here's what i can do / host

http://spiralking.com/samples/

is there anyway you could zip up all those samples and have a link to the zip so it's just one click to download the whole lot?

Neurojazz

jtsuited wrote: »

is there anyway you could zip up all those samples and have a link to the zip so it's just one click to download the whole lot?

Done, i'll stick to that format for the other samples.

jtsuited

Neurojazz wrote: »

Done, i'll stick to that format for the other samples.

dude, those samples are unreal!!!!!

best 808/909 samples I've heard. Clean as feck, and nicely laid out!!

Neurojazz

These are all raw untreated samples - there are more being uploaded, so give it a little time before pulling the rest down.

If you like those samples your'e going to die when you hear the acid hits....

ICN

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah cool. will do it later. i'm in the middle of doing a track today so I must remember to take screenshots when i get to this part (i put in my sub last).

I'd definitely be very interested to see that. Choosing the right Kick, then EQing Kicks & Bass are a bit of a head scratcher for me.

I'll get things to the point where it sounds the best I can make it.. but I'm always sure that it could be better.


Would it be possible to get the 3 Kicks tied into the Tutorial?

jtsuited

the three kicks thing is easy.
1. find the low end you want, filter out any highs, shape it to the lenght you want (actually this could be done last)
2. Find a 'snap' you like. Cut it and just use the transient (filter out the bottom end if it's a bit filthy)
3. find something with a nice midrange. any kick sampled from vinyl will sound sweet in the low mids. shape it, eq it, whatever.

4. bus the 3 to a nice compressor and eq. Twiddle to taste. This stage is necessary to glue the sound together.

5. Print the output of the bus and voila, deadly kick drum!

hubiedubie

For those that don't want to get too technical with eq'ing and compression I highly recommend Thomas Penton drum samples. They're ready to use out of the box (some mightn't like this) so great for noobs like myself.

Neurojazz

For those wanting to make your own bass drums - here's the app that does it (Windows only) - http://spiralking.com/samples/stompin.exe

This is a great little app, there is a short quiz at start - after that no nagging

splitrmx

Neurojazz wrote: »

These are all raw untreated samples

Did you sample those 808 samples from a TR808 yourself?

jtsuited

The Adding a Sub to a Kick Drum trick -

This tip is actually Logic specific but the mechanics can probably be copied in most other DAW's.

1. Set up an audio track with a Test Oscillator on one of the inserts. Make sure the test osc is set to output a sine wave ( for the n00bs - that's the curvy one with no sharp edges)
2. Set up a gate (Silver Gate or just Noise Gate will do) after the test oscillator in the signal chain ie. underneath it.
The channel should now be silent. If not, raise the threshold of the gate until it is.
3. You should have your kick drum track as an audio track in the sequencer arrange page. Name it 'Kick' for simplicity's sake.
4. On the gate that we have on our test oscillator track, click on the dropdown menu in the top right hand corner. this is where you can choose a sidechain input. choose your 'kick' track.
5. Now everytime the kick hits, the gate will 'open' letting the sound of the test oscillator through.
6. Turn the frequency of the test osc down to around 60hz. Play around with it until it's in key (or whatever way you want it!).
7. Now you'll be hearing how it works. Adjust the attack, hold and release settings on the gate to shape the length of the sub. You might need to adjust the threshold a bit too (should be near the top end of the slider).
8. Annoy the bejaysus out of your neighbours with your crazy, phat, adjustable, completely shapable, whopper kick sub!!!

Btw, Andy Wallace and all those huge mix engineers have been doing this with kick drums since the late 80's. So it's a trick that's an oldie but a goodie!

woodsdenis

jtsuited wrote: »

The Adding a Sub to a Kick Drum trick -

This tip is actually Logic specific but the mechanics can probably be copied in most other DAW's.

1. Set up an audio track with a Test Oscillator on one of the inserts. Make sure the test osc is set to output a sine wave ( for the n00bs - that's the curvy one with no sharp edges)
2. Set up a gate (Silver Gate or just Noise Gate will do) after the test oscillator in the signal chain ie. underneath it.
The channel should now be silent. If not, raise the threshold of the gate until it is.
3. You should have your kick drum track as an audio track in the sequencer arrange page. Name it 'Kick' for simplicity's sake.
4. On the gate that we have on our test oscillator track, click on the dropdown menu in the top right hand corner. this is where you can choose a sidechain input. choose your 'kick' track.
5. Now everytime the kick hits, the gate will 'open' letting the sound of the test oscillator through.
6. Turn the frequency of the test osc down to around 60hz. Play around with it until it's in key (or whatever way you want it!).
7. Now you'll be hearing how it works. Adjust the attack, hold and release settings on the gate to shape the length of the sub. You might need to adjust the threshold a bit too (should be near the top end of the slider).
8. Annoy the bejaysus out of your neighbours with your crazy, phat, adjustable, completely shapable, whopper kick sub!!!

Btw, Andy Wallace and all those huge mix engineers have been doing this with kick drums since the late 80's. So it's a trick that's an oldie but a goodie!

Also do exact same thing but use white noise for the snares

splitrmx

I don't know about the rest of those samples Neurojazz put up, but the "acid hits" pack he's linking to is a Zero-G sample pack called "Binary Finary", I suspect they shouldn't be given out to people for free.

ICN

splitrmx wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of those samples Neurojazz put up, but the "acid hits" pack he's linking to is a Zero-G sample pack called "Binary Finary", I suspect they shouldn't be given out to people for free.

NJ is Binary Finary

splitrmx

ICN wrote: »

NJ is Binary Finary

Probably the best comeback there could ever be to my post!

jtsuited

splitrmx wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of those samples Neurojazz put up, but the "acid hits" pack he's linking to is a Zero-G sample pack called "Binary Finary", I suspect they shouldn't be given out to people for free.

classic!!

ICN

Glad we managed to clear that up Lads!

Eircom were just about to cut off NJ's Broadband - Phew!!

Neurojazz

splitrmx wrote: »

Did you sample those 808 samples from a TR808 yourself?

No, sampled from an analog drum machine that was called a DRM1 - it was a newer thing for people who couldn't afford the price tag of the 909/808s - I basically made the sounds as close as possible and then sampled.

Neurojazz

splitrmx wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of those samples Neurojazz put up, but the "acid hits" pack he's linking to is a Zero-G sample pack called "Binary Finary", I suspect they shouldn't be given out to people for free.

Yep - from the Zero G pack - FYI, I made that pack, I own the copyrights, I am Binary Finary - They are now public domain and free for use

splitrmx

Neurojazz wrote: »

No, sampled from an analog drum machine that was called a DRM1 - it was a newer thing for people who couldn't afford the price tag of the 909/808s - I basically made the sounds as close as possible and then sampled.

Yeah I was thinking that the 808 ones didn't sound exactly like a real 808, but rather like some kind of modified or tuned 808. Do you still own the Vermona DRM1? They've always looked interesting but I've never had a chance to try one before.

Also, if it's not top secret information, what did you use to create the acid hits pack?

Neurojazz

The acid hits section was created with Reaktor custom made modules and a HUGE doepfer system that i've now sold. Analogues are ok - used many for years and had more hardware than sense for at least 15 years of my life and just moved totally into computers now.

There was a day when i sat down with an engineer and we went through and sampled various analogs and got reaktors version up and set the parameters the same to see if they married up.... Basically testing the source oscillators and the filters and found they were frame for frame perfect matches.... needless to say i went into reaktor big time after that and wasted a good few years making various weird noises (in that pack now)

That was ages ago and now there are things like Omnisphere (wow, can actually run it fully on an i7 and Sylenth (which ends up replacing most other softsynths i've brought in the last 5 years.

I tried the Virus TI (which is great) - but it still has bugs and issues with certain setups (it doesn't like duende+powercore+FW audio card) - so failed to get anything hardware music attached to the computer.

I mean, don't get me wrong - but hardware is *gone* for dance music, the parrot is dead in my eyes... for the same money as an sh101 i can get 400 instances of Sylenth and Sylenth not only mops the floor with the 101, but then goes *much, much* further.

The humble 303 doesn't like hot nightclubs, and a mate recently complained when i told him to take a hairdryer to the back of his to get it into tune live - his ocs are drifting and take ages to get in tune - the hairdryer helps get it ready before the gig

There's only 1 thing i'm missing from hardware, and i'm sure i'll find a workaround soon

splitrmx

I'll have to check out that Sylenth synth to see if it can replace my SH101 so!

Neurojazz

splitrmx wrote: »

I'll have to check out that Sylenth synth to see if it can replace my SH101 so!

The older versions of Reaktor used to have Roland Emulations. Sylenth is more like a demon offspring of a Super Jupiter and a Virus TI.

splitrmx

I can't believe you sold that Doepfer though. Was it the full A100 system? Even if I could find software that could 100% replicate my analogue hardware, I'd still keep them because I hate looking at a computer when making music. It's probably a side effect from having to look at a computer all day in work!

On the 303 tip, I never had a problem with its tuning drifting, but that said I never brought it into a hot nightclub. I never would either, it's worth too much to me to be bringing it out! It's my baby. I've never heard a perfect clone of it either, but then again that would be impossible as I've never heard two 303s that sounded the same as each other. (hey look everybody, an old man is talking!)

Stab*City

Fair play NJ!! Sounds like you really know your stuff.. Wish i did!!

Neurojazz

splitrmx wrote: »

I can't believe you sold that Doepfer though. Was it the full A100 system? Even if I could find software that could 100% replicate my analogue hardware, I'd still keep them because I hate looking at a computer when making music. It's probably a side effect from having to look at a computer all day in work!

On the 303 tip, I never had a problem with its tuning drifting, but that said I never brought it into a hot nightclub. I never would either, it's worth too much to me to be bringing it out! It's my baby. I've never heard a perfect clone of it either, but then again that would be impossible as I've never heard two 303s that sounded the same as each other. (hey look everybody, an old man is talking!)

It was 3 racks (like 3 A100 worth) of modules (about 4-5k worth) - There's a fair bit of software around to emulate that gear - you just need to see it working rather than wade through 6358734678 bits of software to find what you want (and that is fun to use) - so depending on where you are based you might be able to find someone who can show you some soft synths working to keep an eye on how things are developing.

Things like Reason have all the cables and plug sockets so that you can route signals around and do very twisted things (a bit like the doepfer) - but suffers slightly on the sound quality that you'd get from an analog. Then recently some boards members were talking about the Arturia Moog - a fully 'plugs and cables' routable synth ala the original modular.

And if you want 303, i think props give away REBIRTH for free (so that's 2 303, a 909 and a 808) for free now - it's not exact, but a punter wouldn't spot the difference

This does come back too the work flow - you are liking the touch/speed of having gear there and want to get away from being sat at a cpu all day, which i can understand in part - but being pretty much forced to be at a computer from dawn till dusk i can see that there are ways that the CPU only setup can be enjoyable, but takes soooo much time to settle in.

If you run the tempo from a piece of hardware then you could look at running a few choice synths to open up your choice of sounds that are easy to use and send the clock to the pc and even trigger it from a piece of hardware and it would hardly be different - but a lot of areas that could scupper this happening and ruining your fluid work flow.

Maybe, you'd benefit from partnering with an engineer who'd turn up with laptop/pc and syncing with your setup and bringing that edge to some collaborations - worth a shot, and then you'd see what can/can't be done.

Going to completely computer based from hardware has taken me 10 years (mostly because i'm thick - and it's not a path for the meek at all, dam hard - but does open doors to making some awesome sounds.

Back to the plot, Sylenth - the initial preset i think the demo comes with is a 303, and it's very CPU efficient, so you could have something like 100 instances of it running live - and i think they even have put this synth in a peice of hardware now (some sort of weird keyboard thing) - it's one of many synths that stand out.

If you want the sound accurate to an original - check the demo of the Arturia Jupiter 8V, it looks and sounds fine - more 'analog' than the sylenth.

If you like the harsh Sequential circuits sound then look at the Prophet 5 emulators - again, pretty dam fine.

Waffle.

Neurojazz

Stab*City wrote: »

Fair play NJ!! Sounds like you really know your stuff.. Wish i did!!

*stuff* - hehe, yeah i took a Masters in Geek & Random knowledge