Tactical Voting: Vote FF In (Europe) to vote FF Out (Dail)

serfboard

Here's something I've been thinking, and was wondering what other people's take on it is.

There are three FF TD's currently running for Europe. Pat the Cope in North West, Thomas Byrne in East and Ned O'Keefe in South. If these three get elected won't this trigger a by-election in their respective constituencies, and give the voters a chance to remove the government? If this happened, and assuming FF don't win either of the two current by-elections, then FF would be 4 TDs down and would be able to be removed.

solice

I think this was dealt with in another thread. But my feeling is that Cowen would hold out for as long as possible, it is up to him to call a by election and there is no reason for him to not hold it off for as long as possible. The only reason the 2 by elections are happening tomorrow is because he was bullied into it, not because he wants to.

Plus, we should vote for Europe on European issues not local issues

Does dual mandate apply to MEPs and TDs as it does for councillors and TDs?

Scofflaw

solice wrote: »

I think this was dealt with in another thread. But my feeling is that Cowen would hold out for as long as possible, it is up to him to call a by election and there is no reason for him to not hold it off for as long as possible. The only reason the 2 by elections are happening tomorrow is because he was bullied into it, not because he wants to.

Plus, we should vote for Europe on European issues not local issues

Does dual mandate apply to MEPs and TDs as it does for councillors and TDs?

It does, as far as I know.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nkay1985

That's an interesting idea alright. And I'm 99.99% sure that the dual mandate rule applies to MEPs too.

The only problem with the plan is that Cowen has a lot of time before he's obliged to call the by-elections. I'm surprised he allowed himself to be bullied into the current ones in the first place. He certainly wouldn't be doing that if they had the ability to remove him from power.

In any case it looks like Pat The Cope is the only one who'll be getting elected.

brianthebard

There are more referenda coming up this year aren't there? I think he might have been forced into the two by elections this weekend because there was already going to be elections anyways, it would be hard for him to avoid holding more by elections the same day as the referenda. He could, but to do so would be a complete admission of no confidence in his own party.

nkay1985

brianthebard wrote: »

There are more referenda coming up this year aren't there? I think he might have been forced into the two by elections this weekend because there was already going to be elections anyways, it would be hard for him to avoid holding more by elections the same day as the referenda. He could, but to do so would be a complete admission of no confidence in his own party.

Yeah I think his hand was essentially forced because if he didn't it would have added to the anti-FF backlash. And he was probably thinking that if they didn't have a candidate who was able to win now, then why wait a few months.

ednwireland

i thought it was in another thread that id elected they could hold their dail seats until the next dail election (doesnt seem right to me but ?)

nkay1985

ednwireland wrote: »

i thought it was in another thread that id elected they could hold their dail seats until the next dail election (doesnt seem right to me but ?)

However, the development of Parliament's powers and responsibilities makes it increasingly difficult, if not impossible, for the [1158] members to hold some other Office at the same time. In these circumstances, given the way in which the European Parliament's powers have evolved since 1976, it would now be appropriate to make the Office of MEP incompatible with that of member of a national parliament.
Article 5 of the Council Act of 1976 permitted members of the European Parliament who are members of a national parliament to exercise a dual mandate. While 13 of the 15 Irish MEPs elected in 1979 exercised a dual mandate, only four of the 15 MEPs elected in 1994 had dual membership. Following the 1997 general election, no Irish MEP had a dual mandate. While two dual mandated MEPs were elected in Ireland in 1999, no Irish MEP currently holds a dual mandate.


In recent years, there has been a tendency for Members of the Irish Parliament elected to the European Parliament to opt for one or other mandate at the next subsequent general election. There has also been a progressive reduction in the number of national representatives exercising the dual mandate. In practice, therefore, the exercise of the dual mandate in Ireland has become limited in time and in number.


The previous Government negotiated a limited derogation to the elimination of the dual mandate. The Government has now decided that the limited derogation will apply on a once-off basis at the June 2004 elections. The ban on the dual mandate will fully apply from the next general election.
Debate adjourned.

Source: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0578/D.0578.200401290009.html



The bit in bold seems to imply that MEPs will be subject to the dual mandate from now on. I'm not sure though.

nesf

solice wrote: »

Does dual mandate apply to MEPs and TDs as it does for councillors and TDs?

It does since the 2007 General Election, it's why Simon Coveney had to resign from his seat in the South European constituency.

solice

nesf wrote: »

It does since the 2007 General Election, it's why Simon Coveney had to resign from his seat in the South European constituency.

I was under the imprssion that the he resigned from Europe because he wanted to focus soley on the Dail, not that he was obliged to

nesf

solice wrote: »

I was under the imprssion that the he resigned from Europe because he wanted to focus soley on the Dail, not that he was obliged to

Do a google search for Simon Coveney and dual mandate and you'll find plenty of sources for the dual mandate being abolished in 2007.

dereko1969

Could the 3 TDs (if they win the European seats, big if) actually resign their EP seats and appoint their substitute before being obliged to resign their Dail seats?

nesf

dereko1969 wrote: »

Could the 3 TDs (if they win the European seats, big if) actually resign their EP seats and appoint their substitute before being obliged to resign their Dail seats?

I'm not sure, I know that they just co-opted in replacements when the dual mandate was abolished for Local or European + TD situations but I'm not sure if they can co-opt in a replacement TD without a by-election.

dereko1969

No i'm asking can they co-opt their substitute to their European seats without ever having sat in the European Parliament and before being legally obliged to resign their Dáil seats. Is there some time lag that would allow them to do this? Can't see it happening as there would be uproar but ya never know.

nesf

dereko1969 wrote: »

No i'm asking can they co-opt their substitute to their European seats without ever having sat in the European Parliament and before being legally obliged to resign their Dáil seats. Is there some time lag that would allow them to do this? Can't see it happening as there would be uproar but ya never know.

Hmm, theoretically they could immediately resign from the European Parliament and co-opt someone in in their place. They'd pretty much be begging for losing their Dáil seat next time around though with a stunt like that.

squonk

ednwireland wrote: »

i thought it was in another thread that id elected they could hold their dail seats until the next dail election (doesnt seem right to me but ?)

I'm being naive maybe but if they're in europe, how can they be present in the Dail for important government votes? Do they have a gimp who sits in for them and who they instruct?

brianthebard

dereko1969 wrote: »

No i'm asking can they co-opt their substitute to their European seats without ever having sat in the European Parliament and before being legally obliged to resign their Dáil seats. Is there some time lag that would allow them to do this? Can't see it happening as there would be uproar but ya never know.

Sounds like an affront to democracy tbh.

solice

brianthebard wrote: »

Sounds like an affront to democracy tbh.

LOL

You make it sound like our politicans are normal decent people that wouldnt even dream of doing something unethical

nesf

solice wrote: »

LOL

You make it sound like our politicans are normal decent people that wouldnt even dream of doing something unethical

Even for our politicians a stunt like this would be *special*. It would amount to the party lying about which candidate would represent the people in Europe essentially.

994

solice wrote: »

Plus, we should vote for Europe on European issues not local issues

LOL! no chance. Have you heard any mention of EPP-ED, PES, ALDE so far? Or any debate that considered Europe as a whole, rather than Ireland as a part of Europe?

solice

994 wrote: »

LOL! no chance. Have you heard any mention of EPP-ED, PES, ALDE so far? Or any debate that considered Europe as a whole, rather than Ireland as a part of Europe?

I have heard FG mention time and time again throughout the campaign that they are a member of the EPP-ED grouping. Most recently with Colm Burke from Ireland South on Prime Time on Tuesday night. The Labor candidate from North West mentioned that they were part of the 2nd largest grouping.