What speaker cable to get and where to buy it? (for onkyo 507 and canton 80cx)

kaisersose77

I'm looking to get an onkyo 507 and canton 80 cx speakers and i was hoping someone could tell me what speaker cable to get and where to buy it online as no shops in my town would sell speaker cable (the cheaper the better!).

cheapskate

Hi, I'm sure you have an Electrical wholesalers or Builders merchants in your local town, Ask for 2.5 Twin or similar (of course depends on the size of your speakers) or you could pay a small fortune for specialty speaker cable that you'd need a masters degree in codology to discern the difference

My two cents,

CS

Slaphead07

Yeah try standard mains cable first as it can usually do a good job, if you don't like it's cheap so no biggie.
Cables do effect the end result - better or worse is in the ear of the beholder, so try the cheaper stuff first. That said just because one cable is dearer than another it doesn't mean it's better. As a rule decent 79 strand cable will be fine in most systems.

cnocbui

Speaker cables do not affect the sound, so long as they have sufficient cross sectional area of copper to carry the required current.

Solid core mains cable is stiff and ugly. Multistrand cable will be more flexible and can probably be got with a better range of jacket colours.

Slaphead07

cnocbui wrote: »

Speaker cables do not affect the sound, so long as they have sufficient cross sectional area of copper to carry the required current.

That's an absurdly ill-informed statement.

cnocbui

Slaphead07 wrote: »

That's an absurdly ill-informed statement.

No, it's actually spot on.

Do you think you can find anywhere, an electrical engineer who will support your position? There is no rational explanation based on the known parameters governing the behaviour of electric currents in conductors that could explain how or why any person could possibly hear a difference.

Since there are no rational reasons for people to be able to hear differences between cables, that leaves only irrational reasons.

There are several monetary prizes totaling over a million US dollars, for anyone who can demonstrate, in a double blind trial, that they can hear a difference between speaker cables. No one has yet claimed these prizes, despite at least one of them having been on offer for at leas a decade.

Fuzzy Clam

In most home setups, .75 or 1 mm/sq copper stranded wire is more than adequate. I would love to hear a rational agument as to why the overly expensive "speaker cable" is supposed to be better. I can't hear the difference.

Slaphead07

yeah yeah yeah...

I don't go looking for electrical engineers to judge hifi I use ears. I first heard differences in cables 30 years ago and as my system grew I became even more aware of them. I freely admit its "the black arts" as to why cables should sound different but they do. I hear it EVERY DAY and it's not my imagination.

As for monetary rewards for blind-testing? That's James Randi who, when people enquire about this kind offer, are met with a huge amount of conditions and criteria. Frankly this is only of interest to people on the internet who have no better argument.

I'm not interested in "debating" this issue with you as you seem to thing if you haven't heard it then it doesn't exist, the OP asked a question and I answered it, I also corrected some nonsense that was posted. While I am correcting I'll point out I never said 'overly expensive "speaker cable" is supposed to be better' - I said they sound different and I even suggested cheap and cheerful mains cables... cnocbui seems to think we should select cables based on their colour. Did he ask an electrical engineer or an interior designer for that gem?

backboiler

This is one example of 189 strand cable on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270318910626
There are dozens of other places selling the same stuff, I've bought from a few and it's decent stuff, easier to work with (softer) than typical double-insulated mains cable of the same size.
Yer man is looking for about 35 sterling per 100 metres including postage to Ireland so it works out at less than 40 cent per metre.

kaisersose77

thanks for the replies

are connectors needed aswell? first time buying a proper amp and speakers!

Slaphead07

kaisersose77 wrote: »

are connectors needed aswell?

they're not absolutely nessesary unless the amp/speakers only take spades or similar. If you're handy with a soldering iron then bananna plugs would be best but bare wire, neatly secured, would be fine.

viperirl

cnocbui wrote: »

No, it's actually spot on.
Do you think you can find anywhere, an electrical engineer who will support your position? There is no rational explanation based on the known parameters governing the behaviour of electric currents in conductors that could explain how or why any person could possibly hear a difference.

I've been keeping a close eye on this thread and have been unwilling to jump in as these debates always end up as measurements vs hearing and never really come to any conclusion but anyway here is my 2 cents.

I have a pretty ok hifi system myself having upgraded it several times over the years. There is absolutely no doubt that I've heard differences in speaker cables. Not always but at times I've heard it.

Now, I have an electronics background myself and I understand the theory, measurements and so on but sometimes I'm baffled as to why a cable can 'sound' different. Is it all in the head or the placebo thing? Maybe, but there are far too many people out there who have heard subtle differences for it to be dismissed. Are they ALL mad? I'd love nothing more than for cable 'differences' to be explained but so far nobody can give a sound technical reason as to why but one thing is for sure I have heard differences whether real or not.

You mention above that there "is no rational explanation based on the known parameters governing the behaviour of electric currents in conductors that could explain how or why any person could possibly hear a difference."

For sure, simlarly constructed cables will exhibit negligible differences in measurments for these known parameters but could there be other properties in cables that engineers/scientists dont fully understand or know what to measure? A hifi system is essentially the process of converting electrical energy into accoustic. Is there more to it than simply current, inductance, etc ? Maybe, maybe not.
I know from once working in DAC design that sometimes, the design parameters need to be tweaked even if it goes against the grain somehow of what the theory suggests. (bad design maybe! :rolleyes: )

The whole agrument is further complicated by two other reasons:
Other components in a hifi system will have their own sonic signature or stamp to some extent. It's why we mix and match components to get us the sound we want. These components may well mask any 'possible' cable differences making them irrelevant.

Secondly, our human brains and hearing all process sound slightly differently from one another, some better than others. So when you put it all together perhaps it is impossible to come to any definitive conslusion.

akaSol

@Vipergirl

That is the most informed opinion and definition of "Can you hear it" that I have come across in a very long time.

Thank you.

>Sol

cnocbui

Slaphead07 wrote: »

yeah yeah yeah...

I don't go looking for electrical engineers to judge hifi I use ears.

I find this sort of attitude a bit strange. Basically it amounts to an end user telling the person who created the product they are using, that they don't know why how or why their own product works. A bit like a pilot telling Boeing that they don't why or how their planes work.

Did you know that engineers have ears, just like normal people - no it's true! Really, they do.

"I first heard differences in cables 30 years ago"

What a coincidence, that is just about the time when Monster Cable came on the market with their outrageous claims that their copper wires sounded better than all the other trillions, upon trillions of kilometers of wire already in existence.

And they never even had to publish a peer reviewed scientific paper to back up their claims for people to believe them. Simply amazing.

Funny thing is, cables were just electrical conductors until some clever marketing whizz convinced some Hi-Fi reviewers - with a cheque for advertisment placements no doubt - that they were now audio components.

and as my system grew I became even more aware of them. I freely admit its "the black arts" as to why cables should sound different but they do. I hear it EVERY DAY and it's not my imagination."

"Black art" is right - cable voodoo is a very appropriate term.

As for monetary rewards for blind-testing? That's James Randi who, when people enquire about this kind offer, are met with a huge amount of conditions and criteria. Frankly this is only of interest to people on the internet who have no better argument.

It's not just James Randi's offer of a million. Several prominent sceptics who regularly take part in discussions on the rec.audio.high-end newsgroup, have offered a pool of $5000 to anyone who can prove they can hear a difference between speaker cables. No one has even attempted to claim the money.

The conditions and criteria of these tests boil down to just one that is difficult - 'hear a difference' - that is why no one has claimed the money, because they can't.

Stewart Pinkerton
View profile
More options Oct 30 2004, 4:04 pm
Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Stewart Pinkerton <pate...@dircon.co.uk>
Date: 30 Oct 2004 15:04:07 GMT
Local: Sat, Oct 30 2004 4:04 pm
Subject: Re: Speaker Cable v. Lamp Cord
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On 29 Oct 2004 23:06:49 GMT, Michael Dombrowski

<legoduden...@hammycorp.com> wrote:
>Hello All,
>Is there any difference between (same gauge) speaker cable and lamp
>cord? I cannot see any reason why there would be, especially if bannana
>plugs are soldered on to both ends. If there are differences, why? I
>can't for the life of me think why speaker cable would be better than
>standard wire.

There has been for about five or six years now, a pool of around
$5,000 for anyone who can tell the difference between basic zipcord
(lamp cord, if you will) and the most exotic 'audiophile' speaker
cable (which can run up to more than $1,000 a *foot*!), under
level-matched double blind conditions. i.e. when they don't actually
*know* what's connected. In all that time, and despite many claims of
'obvious', 'night and day', and 'pretty amazing' differences, not one
single person has even *attempted* to claim this money.

I think an outstanding, uncollected, prize pool of over over a million dollars is a pretty good argument actually. There are people who would sell a kidney for less.

I'm not interested in "debating" this issue with you as you seem to thing if you haven't heard it then it doesn't exist, the OP asked a question and I answered it, I also corrected some nonsense that was posted. While I am correcting

You are not 'correcting', you are expressing an opinion.

I'll point out I never said 'overly expensive "speaker cable" is supposed to be better' - I said they sound different and I even suggested cheap and cheerful mains cables... cnocbui seems to think we should select cables based on their colour. Did he ask an electrical engineer or an interior designer for that gem?

Ha ha.

cnocbui

viperirl wrote: »

I've been keeping a close eye on this thread and have been unwilling to jump in as these debates always end up as measurements vs hearing and never really come to any conclusion but anyway here is my 2 cents.

I have a pretty ok hifi system myself having upgraded it several times over the years. There is absolutely no doubt that I've heard differences in speaker cables. Not always but at times I've heard it.

Now, I have an electronics background myself and I understand the theory, measurements and so on but sometimes I'm baffled as to why a cable can 'sound' different. Is it all in the head or the placebo thing?

It's all in the head.

As someone with an electronics background, I wonder if you would have an explanation for one little conundrum that bothers me.

The music we finally listen to, comes to us via a very long production process involving the transmission of electrical signals along a lot of wires and copper tracks.

We have wires in the coils of the microphones used to originally record the music, in the microphone cables that connect the microphones to the rest of the equipment in a recording studio, where the signal passes along yet more wires and circuit board tracks, inside various devices, before finally being recorded.

Then when the recordings are played back and mixed, you have more wires and circuit tracks the signal passes along; inside and connecting; even more bits of equipment.

And so it goes, until finally we get to play the music back from our CD's or vinyl or MP3 players, where again, we have a myriad of wires and circuit tracks in our playback equipment the signal passes along - wires in our preamps, wires in or power amps, wires in our speakers, circuit tracks in the crossover networks, wires in the inductors of the crossovers, wires from the crossover to the speaker and finally, wires in the voice coils of the speaker drivers.

How many of these 'other' wires and circuit tracks were made by Tara Labs, Van Den Hul, Monster et al?

Rhetorical question really, the answer is none.

So if none of these other wires have to be 'special' with significant sonic 'signatures', how is it possible for them to do their job so well, why is it they do their job so well?

All those myriad wires, cables circuit tracks, and all of a sudden, the ones connecting the amp to the speakers become somehow critical to the final sound - for no logically explainable reason?

Maybe, but there are far too many people out there who have heard subtle differences for it to be dismissed. Are they ALL mad?

I give you UFO sightings, I give you Yeti, Big Foot, Sasquatch.

Lots of people claim to have seen all these too. Are they to be dismissed?

Without reasonable proof - yes.

Are they mad?

Some may be but most are just mistaken.

I'd love nothing more than for cable 'differences' to be explained but so far nobody can give a sound technical reason as to why but one thing is for sure I have heard differences whether real or not.

You mention above that there "is no rational explanation based on the known parameters governing the behaviour of electric currents in conductors that could explain how or why any person could possibly hear a difference."

For sure, simlarly constructed cables will exhibit negligible differences in measurments for these known parameters but could there be other properties in cables that engineers/scientists dont fully understand or know what to measure?

There could be, but if these missing parameters are not known to science, how is it speaker cable manufacturers can design and construct cables to eploit the unknown phenomena?

How many peer reviewed scientific papers have all the worlds esoteric cable manufacturers published with their astonishing new insights and contributions concerning the behaviour of electrical signals in conductors?

Not a single one.

A hifi system is essentially the process of converting electrical energy into accoustic. Is there more to it than simply current, inductance, etc ? Maybe, maybe not.
I know from once working in DAC design that sometimes, the design parameters need to be tweaked even if it goes against the grain somehow of what the theory suggests. (bad design maybe! :rolleyes: )

Ah good, you have some experience with digital siganls.

So, what is your opinion of the claims some people make - with absolute certainty - that they can 'hear' significant audible differences between different brands of digital interconnects or between a digital signal that is transmitted over an optical cable versus a coaxial?

And while on that topic. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, there were the magic green pens. The idea was that any self respecting audiophile would buy one of these expensive green permanent markers and run it round the edge of their CD's. This would effect the behaviour of the light from the laser while it was inside the polycarbonate of the CD and would enhance and improve the final sound. Many people bought these pens, tried them and claimed they could hear noticeable and significant differences in the sound from their systems.

Do you use a green pen? Would you, even though there is no scientific reason why they should work? Do you 'believe' that there is some - as yet uncategorized by science - phenomenon affecting the digital encoding of the laser light pulses within the medium of the CD that could account for people hearing a difference?

If not, why not? After all it is the same thing - lots of people claiming thay can hear something without proof.

The whole agrument is further complicated by two other reasons:
Other components in a hifi system will have their own sonic signature or stamp to some extent. It's why we mix and match components to get us the sound we want. These components may well mask any 'possible' cable differences making them irrelevant.

Voodoo.

Secondly, our human brains and hearing all process sound slightly differently from one another, some better than others. So when you put it all together perhaps it is impossible to come to any definitive conslusion.

No, it is not impossible to prove whether people can hear differnces between speaker cables. A properly designed double blind trial would easily show if listeners had the capability of hearing the claimed differences.

Slaphead07

cnocbui wrote: »

No, it is not impossible to prove whether people can hear differnces between speaker cables. A properly designed double blind trial would easily show if listeners had the capability of hearing the claimed differences.

I don't know anyone interested in hifi who would feel the need to prove anything to you.

Fuzzy Clam

Slaphead07 wrote: »

yeah yeah yeah...

A good mature answer....:rolleyes:

Before blindingly accepting that cable marketed as "speaker" cable is better, it is a good idea to understand why it may be.
The main factors that affect wire performance are capacitance and resistance. Low capacitance is important in low signal level cables such as phono leads etc. Cheaper leads may have higher capacitance between conductor and shield which affects high end frequencies. I can hear the difference as I'm sure you can but not everybody can. Its also relatively easy to prove this.
In speaker wire, resistance is the important factor. "Speaker" wire of 2.5mm/sq will exibit similar resistance as a good quality electrical copper wire of the same diameter. Even if there was a difference in resistance, the lengths used in any home setup are far too short for the difference to have any effect.
It is the placibo effect but if you're happy that you can hear a difference, then that's all that matters at the end of the day.

I remember when CDs were just becoming the main format to buy music on and Sony were marketing headphones that were "suitable for digital" !!!!
Same headphone as before but with a "digital" sticker on them...

Slaphead07

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

A good mature answer....:rolleyes: .

and perfectly fitting

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Before blindingly accepting that cable marketed as "speaker" cable is better...

and who's done that exactly?

viperirl

cnocbui wrote: »

So, what is your opinion of the claims some people make - with absolute certainty - that they can 'hear' significant audible differences between different brands of digital interconnects or between a digital signal that is transmitted over an optical cable versus a coaxial?

ah, well I might have an explaination for that one and comes from the DAC design stuff I did and the HDMI chips that I have worked on.
For the most part, the serial stream coming off the end of any digital cable is the same. Unless there is really significant interference, the '1' will always be a 1 and the '0' a 0. However the jitter on these bits can be quite different. I know this for a fact having observed it on a scope for many different cables, more so at long lengths though. Not really a problem for HDMI as the receiver chips will deskew/recover/decode the bits anyway for further proccessing up stream. But for a CD transport connected to an external DAC, the story is very much different and it boils down as to how the SPDIF clock recovery mechanism extracts and produces a nice clean clock. The clock in turn then feeds the DAC with the aim of giving the final output signal before amplification. A DAC that is sensitive to jitter will cause unwanted modulations on the final output signal. Not all DAC's will produce exactly the same output. Some DAC's have clever mechanisms for eliminating the effects of jitter or else the designer will ensure it is more cleanly clocked.
So, the bottom line is that it IS possible for two DAC's output to differ if they cannot handle jitter properly or make its effects negligible. And this jitter can vary from cable to cable. I've observed it but as I said above, it really only becomes an issue at longer lengths. That said, jitter will always exist on a cable to some extent and a good DAC will have to deal with it in any case.
(I use the term DAC loosely here and I really mean it to encompass the clock/data extraction and filtering as well as the obvious digital to analog conversion)

As for optical vs coax cables, well you have two different paths here physically. Both are transporting the same digital stream but the processing at the receiver end is different. SPDIF clock and data extraction in the case of coax and light to electrial conversion in the optical. Now I dont understand how the optical process works so I cannot comment what possible c*ck-ups can happen here.
If there are genuinely differences between optical and coax digital transmission my guess is that its more to do with the implementation in the reciever end as opposed to the cables. One thing I've learned over the years is that nothing in analog/digital electronics is ever designed perfectly or always free from bugs.

Personally I've never heard any differences between coax and optical, I was theorising above as to how it might be possible but it's more about the receiver component at the end than the actual cables.

cnocbui

Thanks for taking the time to write that.

I think my point is still relevant; that there are lot's of people who claim to be able to hear a difference between 0.5 and 1m lengths of digital interconnect, when clearly, it is not possible for them to do so.

Yes jitter exists and can be measured, but it is not going to vary between same length cables and is not going to have audible consequences, so people who claim to be able to hear a difference are mistaken.

So in the wider context, just because lots of people claim to be able to hear something, it should not automatically follow that they can do what they claim.

In terms of digital interconnects they clearly can't, in terms of speaker cables, there is no good reason to believe they can.

I would be happy to eat humble pie and recant if someone can one day organise a seriously well structured double blind test that leads to results which prove otherwise.

The only reference to a blind testing of speaker cables I have found to date is an article by Tom Nousaine, published in Canadian publication Sound & Vision.

This link is a pdf of the article and I should warn that it is a 8.9 mb download:

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf

To quote from it: "Statistical analysis showed that none of the listeners in any session was able to reliably identify loudspeaker cables ranging in price from $200 US to $990 US from less than $15 US worth of generic 16-guage zip cord."

akaSol

And in some way this goes to tell you why:
http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.html
People are becoming accustom to "What it should sound like".
You sit in a concert hall and then you pick up the CD in the foyer , race home and destroy it @320Kbs.
I feel its the same with interconnects in general , if you have a €500 amp, you get the speakers for for €100, think its a "good deal" and the stick €30 worth of cables on them.
GOOD + TAT + TAT = TAT

>Sol

cnocbui

akaSol wrote: »

And in some way this goes to tell you why:
http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.html
People are becoming accustom to "What it should sound like".
You sit in a concert hall and then you pick up the CD in the foyer , race home and destroy it @320Kbs.
I feel its the same with interconnects in general , if you have a €500 amp, you get the speakers for for €100, think its a "good deal" and the stick €30 worth of cables on them.
GOOD + TAT + TAT = TAT

>Sol

That article is fluff. There is no 'sizzle' sound to MP3s at high bit rates. At low bitrates, say less than 160 kbps, there certainly are inadequacies in sound quality compared to original source material, but over 192 kbps, most material will be indistinguishable from the original source. This has been shown by tests conducted by multiple participants over at Hydrogenaudio.org.

I agree with you in part concerning equipment, most of the money in a hifi system should be in the speakers. My speakers cost about 3 times as much as the combined cost of all the other components.

However, when it comes to Interconnects and speaker cables, I don't agree. So long as they are of sufficient quality to do the job electrically, they make no contribution to the quality of the final sound. I made all my own cables except one set connecting the CD player to the preamp. I used good quality materials to construct them from so they probably cost about €50 - 70.

covey09

4mm OFC cable will do the job, end of!

gumballz

covey09 wrote: »

4mm OFC cable will do the job, end of!

Yeah! agree!

The Ritz

Where to start ?

@cnocbui, This is not the first time that you've lobbed the cat among the pigeons, you are entitled to your opinion but your posting here and on other threads (one on where are the hifi shops) is fast approaching trolling - making statements designed to cause a particular reaction and continuing to argue the point for the sake of stirring things up. I suggest that you consider whether it's worth getting banned - I'd be happy to oblige you if you want to continue with your present form.

Please do not use this thread to question my role as moderator, if you want to discuss this with me send a PM.


@the rest, it would be nice to see a question on cables answered without drama, although the direction of this thread is understandable, albeit unwelcome.

Ritz.

viperirl

Ritz,

What about making a sticky on speaker cables?

State in it that well constructed 79 strand/4mm OFC is a good cable for most systems and that expensive or exotic forms of cabling are a bit more controversial due to the hearing vs science debate and that its down to the customer to decide if its worth it. I'm sure you can find a better way of wording it than I can.

Any inquiries about speaker cable will get refered to the sticky without debate. Other forums have done the same regarding HDMI cables.

Personally I'm all for a good debate on such things as long as it doesn't turn into personal insults. I have a foot in both camps regarding the hearing vs science debate anyway.


D

The Ritz

@viperirl,

That's a really excellent idea, thanks. Do you want to have a go, write up what you think we'd consider good standard advice, and maybe a bit extra on the "standard electrons" view and a piece from the "audiophile" point of view ? You could circulate to a few of the regulars and see if we can arrive at a general piece of advice without anyone dying in a ditch over it ?

Any further input on this idea would be welcome.


Ritz.

kaisersose77

Finally getting around to setting up the amp and speakers. The subwoofer for the canton is powered, and has high level (use speaker cable) and low level inputs (use rca cables, white connection says left and right connection says r/mono). No outputs. While on the back of the 507 is just see one rca connection saying subwoofer.

check here for back of 507

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/TX-SR507.html

In order to get surround sound i'll need an rca cable with 2 connections at one end, and one connection at the other? or does it just have to be connected to the r/mono connection on the subwoofer? and then use this

http://cgi.ebay.ie/HiQ-Subwoofer-Lead-phono-RCA-to-phono-RCA-OFC-cable-10M_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1301Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem562b5defbeQQitemZ370094763966QQptZUKQ5fComputingQ5fCablesConnectorsQ5fRLQQsalenotsupported

Sorry i'm a complete novice with proper surround sound!

Idleater

You only need a single run of RCA connected cable.

Subwoofers are Mono so running a 1 : 2 (Y splitter) RCA cable will not benefit you.

Some subs specify to connect to either the red or white when using single cables, and some don't care.