imra's forum discussion (split form WWR thread)

Enduro

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Ran along leg 5 this morning and its pretty spectacular alright. Its a nice run to do a week after Ballybraid as you appreciate the run you've done out and back along the Derrybawn ridge. An idea for a race perhaps in the future could be leg 5 outward, turn up Mullacor and back to Glendalough via Derrybawn

Its nice to be able to post here without fear of this getting sensored on the other forum!

I think that's a great route idea. The only drawback I can think of is that the national park might not like it. But I reckon that would be an absolute classic route.

Peterx

?
Censoring ideas for racing??
what are you on about?????

Enduro

Peterx wrote: »

?
Censoring ideas for racing??
what are you on about?????

So far I've had one post deleted, a good friend of mine has had one post deleted, and one was deleted last week. The censor seems to have had a complete sense of humour bypass, judging by what gets censored.

Indeed a whole thread of ideas for a particular race was deleted.

I don't post on forums where posts get deleted if they express an opinion which differs from the censor's opinion, and that is exactly what is going on with the IMRA forum at the moment (Indeed I've been told that that is policy now.. the censor is the arbitor of the truth and anything contradicting that can be deleted).

Boards is moderated rather than censored, so no problems with open discussions here.

T runner

Enduro wrote: »

So far I've had one post deleted, a good friend of mine has had one post deleted, and one was deleted last week. The censor seems to have had a complete sense of humour bypass, judging by what gets censored.

What post of yours actually was censored?

Indeed a whole thread of ideas for a particular race was deleted.

I think that was the debate about the route for the Schools race?
As you know a race thread is visible to any parent who may read the events page and the IMRA committee decided to remove that thread. The reason: it would not have been advisable for them to see some self righteous adult IMRA members attacking a race organiser like a shawl of pirahna because they happened to disagree with her route choice. The parents may have decided that IMRA was not a fit to create an appropriate environment for their kids to enjoy a bit of running. We didnt want that.

Sems to have hit you where it hurt: on the ego.

I don't post on forums where posts get deleted if they express an opinion which differs from the censor's opinion, and that is exactly what is going on with the IMRA forum at the moment

Yes you do. You have posted several times in the last few days on the IMRA forum including a rather interesting take on people who complete the Wicklow Round without notifying the public. This is perfectly legitimate and understandable: but you didnt agree with it, and stated that there were all sorts of shady characters doing ultra running now. You also stated on this forum that you had your suspicions about who was making the original attempt. Was it the shady character you suspected or someone else?

(Indeed I've been told that that is policy now.. the censor is the arbitor of the truth and anything contradicting that can be deleted).

That is complete bull****. The moderator on imra is one of the mildest and decent people youre likely to meet. Who is your friend in the know? As with Peterx I am on the IMRA committee and can state with certainty that your comment is fallacious.

Boards is moderated rather than censored, so no problems with open discussions here

If you had attacked the moderation on boards.ie like you did on the IMRA forum last week you would have been banned for a time period and had your post deleted. What happenned to your post on the IMRA forum? Absolutely nothing! No deletion not even a comment.

The sum of the history of moderation on the IMRA forum would equate to a slow hour on boards!

What I dont understand is that if you really hate the IMRA forum that much why bother posting on it at all?

There was a thread started on IMRA for the express purpose of discussing and setting up moderation. You ignored it. Part of the reason it was actually set up was over a couple of personal attacks against you on the forum!!!!

Boards.ie and IMRA, two award winning sites. Let people make their own choice . Hopefully they will make the right choice (both:))

bazman

There are two sides to every story - the IMRA committee have been a little conservative sometimes, but there were personal insults made on some IMRA threads (even if they were unintentional) and caution is wise for a small organisation.

Worth nothing the the record held for the WWR was made with an illegal team - the Blister Bunch made the most of a logical typo in the original version of the rules. I think they managed a team of 5 with no females. Typo has been fixed since. Still, record is there to be broken by a good team - not sure who the front runners are this year ...

Enduro

The reason: it would not have been advisable for them to see some self righteous adult IMRA members attacking a race organiser like a shawl of pirahna because they happened to disagree with her route choice. The parents may have decided that IMRA was not a fit to create an appropriate environment for their kids to enjoy a bit of running. We didnt want that.

The spirit of that thread was running along entirely constuctive lines. Several good alternatives were posted. The "self righteous adult IMRA members" included a parent of said runners, former national coaches, former presidents of the organisation, as well as one non-adult prospective runner. The only self righteousness I could see was the assumption that some things/people were beyond critisism.

The posts were not attacking the race organiser. They were attacking the decision to hold a race in the phoenix park with very little in the way of hills as a schools "hill race" championship. There is a big difference. I can't recall any post which attacked the race organiser. It most certainly was not "attacking a race organiser like a shawl of pirahna because they happened to disagree with her route choice".

Sems to have hit you where it hurt: on the ego.

Nope. I'm very straight up about this, as I try to be about everything. Try to take what I say at face value. I don't post on forums where my posts can be censored at a whim. I've done this before with another forum (biking related), along with a lot of other similarly disgruntled users. That forum pretty much died due to its censorship, and other forums were created to take its place. One of the most effective ways to kill a forum is to start censoring people unreasonably.

Yes you do. You have posted several times in the last few days on the IMRA forum

Of course I did. Because it was a requirement of doing the round. And of course I've thanked people, and engaged in any relevant discussions on those threads, as it is only polite to do so. Any detailed postings I've put on boards though. But, believe me, there have been multiple issues/threads I would like to have joined in/started a discussion on, but haven't. The changing of Wicklow Round rules being just one obvious one I've highlighted.

including a rather interesting take on people who complete the Wicklow Round without notifying the public. This is perfectly legitimate and understandable

Indeed, and it seems that a significant number of people agree with that point (one I would have made a month or two ago if I thought the forum was a viable method of discussing matters like that).

and stated that there were all sorts of shady characters doing ultra running now. You also stated on this forum that you had your suspicions about who was making the original attempt. Was it the shady character you suspected or someone else?

You've mixed in two entirely seperate points there (one of which is slightly incorrect), presumably to construct something sinister-reading. If you re-read the original posts again I presume you'll see that they were unconnected (especially, as you say, as they are on seperate websites). If not I can spell it out for you if needs be. Let me know.

That is complete bull****. The moderator on imra is one of the mildest and decent people youre likely to meet. Who is your friend in the know? As with Peterx I am on the IMRA committee and can state with certainty that your comment is fallacious.

My reasoning behind that is the contents of a private email which I recieved, and since it wasn't intended for public consumption I'm not going to post it here. My friend in the know is me.

So are you going to publicly state as IMRA policy that no posts/threads will be deleted even if any of the committee/moderators consider the post to be 100% factually incorrect (presuming that it contains no personal abuse etc)?

At the moment posts seem to be being deleted for being beyond the sense of humour of the moderator/censor. Is this also official policy?

The sum of the history of moderation on the IMRA forum would equate to a slow hour on boards!

Indeed. Which would be about proportional to the traffic.

What I dont understand is that if you really hate the IMRA forum that much why bother posting on it at all?

I don't hate the forum. I actually wrote the original software. I do hate seeing posts/threads deleted because they are humorous, or because members of the committee take constructive critism of a decision as a personal attack. So mostly, and with rare exceptions, I don't bother posting.

There was a thread started on IMRA for the express purpose of discussing and setting up moderation. You ignored it. Part of the reason it was actually set up was over a couple of personal attacks against you on the forum!!!!

I didn't respond because I prefer not to post on fora where my posts can be deleted, as specified above. Otherwise I would have responded to that post (There are several things I would like to see changed, but god help us all, that would be critisism), along with many other posts.

Boards.ie and IMRA, two award winning sites. Let people make their own choice . Hopefully they will make the right choice (both)

I would love to see IMRA returning to its more active state. Believe me, I'm not the only one who's given up on it as a means for full discussion about IMRA. People have been making choices. Don't shoot the messenger, but instead read and understand the message!

Enduro

bazman wrote: »

There are two sides to every story - the IMRA committee have been a little conservative sometimes, but there were personal insults made on some IMRA threads (even if they were unintentional) and caution is wise for a small organisation.

Apart from spam, and one junior with a bee in his bonnet last year, I haven't seen any posts that needed any kind of attention. Deleting posts because they are humorous is very very cautious indeed, and no-doubt discourages people from posting.

Out of interests, what were the personal insults? (Apart from the ones against me which hung around for months afterwards)

As an aside there are rather large structural inconsitencies with all the goings on (such as deleting posts because users allegedly don't correctly declare who they are, whilst allowing posters to identify themselves any way they feel like, and deleteding posts after they have been mailed out to every forum subcriber, after the "damage" has already been done... I would be interested to know if that actually makes things worse legally). It would make for an interesting forum discussion!

bazman wrote: »

Worth nothing the the record held for the WWR was made with an illegal team - the Blister Bunch made the most of a logical typo in the original version of the rules. I think they managed a team of 5 with no females. Typo has been fixed since. Still, record is there to be broken by a good team - not sure who the front runners are this year .

The team wasn't illegal. It would only have been illegal if it had been entered in subsequent years, after the rules had been modified. They're not to blame if the rules are not written the way they were intended to be.

bazman

Enduro wrote: »

The team wasn't illegal. It would only have been illegal if it had been entered in subsequent years, after the rules had been modified. They're not to blame if the rules are not written the way they were intended to be.

You're correct, it wasn't illegal - just not in the spirit of the event.

Re IMRA censorship - personally I didn't like the way threads were pulled. Some individual posts had to be pulled, but it's a pity full threads were removed. Members should be allowed to voice criticism on approach as long as it doesn't get personal (and that works both ways).

Oh, and I've added team list to IMRA website - Clonliffe Harriers A look favourites on paper IMO

T runner

Enduro wrote: »

I would like to have joined in/started a discussion on, but haven't. The changing of Wicklow Round rules being just one obvious one I've highlighted.

Here is an example of a post on the Wicklow Round rules which you didnt make.

"Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I was under the impression that the reasoning behind publishing notification of attempts on the Wicklow Round was as a form of public verification of the round attempt. Anyone who wishes is able to come along and observe for themselves the runner(s) at some stage on their attempt. As such, it strikes me that the notified attempt is very much against the spirit of the round on several counts (No mention of who the runners are, no day specified, and a very definite request to discourage independant observation of the attempt).

Indeed, and it seems that a significant number of people agree with that point (one I would have made a month or two ago if I thought the forum was a viable method of discussing matters like that).

I think Adrian Tucker agreed but saw Moires point of view when she explained why.

You've mixed in two entirely seperate points there (one of which is slightly incorrect), presumably to construct something sinister-reading. If you re-read the original posts again I presume you'll see that they were unconnected (especially, as you say, as they are on seperate websites). If not I can spell it out for you if needs be. Let me know.

Yes please spell it out: I assume you "suspected" Moire when you wrote this:

"I actually think the secretive runner(s) are doing themselves a disservice. If they post a very good time for the round then, in my opinion, a cloud of suspicion will hang over the time. Unfortunately ultra-running in general seems to attract a lot of chancers making dubious claims "

My friend in the know is me.

Ahem.

So are you going to publicly state as IMRA policy that no posts/threads will be deleted even if any of the committee/moderators consider the post to be 100% factually incorrect (presuming that it contains no personal abuse etc)?

The moderation guidelines are there for all to see on the IMRA forum. Have a read sometime.

At the moment posts seem to be being deleted for being beyond the sense of humour of the moderator/censor. Is this also official policy?

See above.

Indeed. Which would be about proportional to the traffic.

Nope it wouldnt. I thought you were straight up?

I do hate seeing posts/threads deleted because they are humorous, or because members of the committee take constructive critism of a decision as a personal attack.

Plenty of posters on that thread asked you and others to tone it down. When (God forbid) the decision to hold the race in the Phoenix Park wasnt altered, yourself particuloarly and one or two others took it personally. After several persistant destructive, and negative comments from you and others the committe had to make a decision on if we wanted the parents of the school kids to see that thread (which was attached to the event page). The correct answer was no. I had my own misgivings about having it in the Phoenix Park but happily for the kids involved it was a resounding success and I was proved wrong.

Out of interests, what were the personal insults? (Apart from the ones against me which hung around for months afterwards)

Is everyone against you Enduro?

I didn't respond because I prefer not to post on fora where my posts can be deleted, as specified above.

But posts can be deleted on boards and you can get banned here. Infact one of your many recent posts on IMRA would have got you a ban and a deletion had you posted it on boards. Any comment?

Otherwise I would have responded to that post (There are several things I would like to see changed, but god help us all, that would be critisism), along with many other posts.

Plenty of scope for criticism, just dont take it personally if nobody agrees with you.

Enduro

Here is an example of a post on the Wicklow Round rules which you didnt make.

I'll presume you meant "did" rather than "didn't" there. Yes, I made that point in the post that I was required to make to declare my attempt at the round. I didn't make it in the original thread suggesting changes to the rules of the round due to the reasons already outlined. I simply extended a post I was already going to make (Due to the rules of the round) to add a very much related point which I would liked to have posted months ago. If I could have made my round declaration without posting on the IMRA Forum then I wouldn't have posted that.

I think Adrian Tucker agreed but saw Moires point of view when she explained why.

Indeed he did agree, as did several others. He said, I believe that he understood why Moire wanted her attempt to be without publicity, as do I. In my case understanding Moire's point of view does not preclude be from thinking that the rules still should no be changed (And as far as I know they haven't been changed).

Yes please spell it out: I assume you "suspected" Moire when you wrote this:

"I actually think the secretive runner(s) are doing themselves a disservice. If they post a very good time for the round then, in my opinion, a cloud of suspicion will hang over the time. Unfortunately ultra-running in general seems to attract a lot of chancers making dubious claims "

Your assumption is wrong. There are 3 points in there.

Point 1 I stand over (Anyone doing it in secret is doing themselves a disservice). The point was made by someone else on this site that they're missing out on a lot of support and encouragement by doing this.

Point 2 (A cloud of suspicion) I don't think in any way applies to Moire's attempt. But that's because I know Moire and her high moral and ethical standards. If it was a complete unknown coming in and doing a spectacular time "out of nothing" and they had deliberately chosen to do their round in secret then it would generate suspicion. Do you not see this?

Point 3: "Unfortunately ultra-running in general seems to attract a lot of chancers making dubious claims". This is factually correct. If you want to know more about it then why don't you ask Tony Mangan about the goings on in threadmill record attempts, or lookup the sunday times archives to see the fuss that was created when a spurious claim for a 100 mile time that would have been a world record was posted on an Irish website recently. There are plenty more.

The moderation guidelines are there for all to see on the IMRA forum. Have a read sometime.

No they're not. To quote directly from the Diarmuid's post in the forum netiquette thread (with my emphasis)...

"My intention in posting this draft Forum Netiquette is to start a process that culminates in the Committee publishing a Forum Netiquette for the guidance of all users of the Forum. I’m sure that many of you will have suggestions that will improve the draft; some of you probably have experience of Netiquettes used in other similar Forums. My suggestion would be to allow a couple of weeks for feedback, following which the Committee could consider formulating and publishing a final policy on the matter."

It has not been progressed publicly beyond that point. I certainly have not seen a finalised policy. If it has been published could you please tell me where to find it. I also have a few suggestions on how to improve the document, and would love to have a the opportunity to make submissions on that without the fear of having my posts deleted.

Obviously, given that there are no official guidelines, my other questions still stand.

Plenty of posters on that thread asked you and others to tone it down. When (God forbid) the decision to hold the race in the Phoenix Park wasnt altered, yourself particuloarly and one or two others took it personally. After several persistant destructive, and negative comments from you and others the committe had to make a decision on if we wanted the parents of the school kids to see that thread (which was attached to the event page). The correct answer was no. I had my own misgivings about having it in the Phoenix Park but happily for the kids involved it was a resounding success and I was proved wrong.

I take it that you're not defending the censoring of posts because the moderator doesn't like/understand the humour.

Without access to the original thread (since it has been deleted) its difficult to debate its contents. What I can tell you is that I didn't/ don't take the decision personally. I also seem to recall persisant constructive contributions to the thread, suggesting alternatives, pointing out issues that had been raised in the past in relation to juniors etc. I do, however, have a very strong personal interest in hillrunning in Ireland, and don't like to see decisions being taken that, in my opinion, potentially harm hillrunning in Ireland. You should know that. The running of the schools championship doesn't affect me personally in the slightest.

As an aside, its rare to see a race in the phoenix park that isn't a success. Its got a lot going for it in terms of accessability etc. That still doesn't make them hill races though.

Is everyone against you Enduro?

I dont thinks so. That doesn't answer a genuine question. The reason I asked for the ones against me to be excluded is because I know those ones, and no action was taken against them until months later. I'm genuinly curious to know what other posts are taken to be personal insults. I've seen plenty of posts attacking decisons, policy, rules etc, but in all honesty can't remember any which attacked individuals. Are you going to nswer the question?

But posts can be deleted on boards and you can get banned here. Infact one of your many recent posts on IMRA would have got you a ban and a deletion had you posted it on boards. Any comment?

Boards has a published system of rules, and decisions can be questioned/appealed in a defined manner. As it happens I once got banned from a forum in boards, and it was my own fault for not reading the rules. I don't have a problem with boards because I know that if I stick to the rules my posts will be left alone. There are no rules on the IMRA forum, and I've seen posts deleted without any explanation that I could not see any reason for. I formulate my posts for the forum on which they are posted.

Plenty of scope for criticism, just dont take it personally if nobody agrees with you.

Again, I don't take it personally. I simply don't bother putting the effort into writing a post for a forum where it can be deleted on a whim.

Now, try not to shoot the messanger here. Take a look at the IMRA thread "Censorship or a technical glitch?". Look at all the people in there, and see how many have continued to make a contribution to the IMRA forum since then. Take heed of the fact that censoring posts can kill forum activity.

A couple of points to note:

"This thread was deleted for breach of the general forum etiquette; the Committee will release an official statement specifying the reasons for this, as a public ruleset is not yet in place" ... There has been no official statement, as far as I know. There was no document outlining "general forum etiquette". There is currently still no public ruleset in place.

"We will also seek to appoint 1 or 2 support moderators for the webmaster. Inquiries of interest are welcome, so please forward them to myself at <Moderator's address> and the Committee will discuss appointment at the next Meeting."... has this been done? I actually volunteered to do this before this statement was issued. I've heard nothing back on the matter.

And finally, you didn't like it when I said...

(Indeed I've been told that that is policy now.. the censor is the arbitor of the truth and anything contradicting that can be deleted).

Well, in the above thread the forum moderator makes the following guidline...
"No deliberate falsehoods/lies/slander"

Who exactly defines what is a "falsehood", or a lie for that matter? This is what I mean by the censor appointing themselves as an arbitor of the truth. To me this is the biggest issue, as it allows the censor to decide that any point of view is a "falsehood" because it disagrees with their own, and delete posts on that basis. Can you see this? Can you see why I might have an issue with this?

Krusty_Clown

Probably best to move that discussion into a separate thread as it's off-topic for the Wicklow Relay, which I sadly have to read about, instead of being a participant. Go team Boards AC!

hunnymonster

done krusty clown, I'll leave a redirect in the original thread for anyone who wants to follow the spin off topic.

T runner

Enduro wrote: »

If I could have made my round declaration without posting on the IMRA Forum then I wouldn't have posted that.

No, you posted on the Rule change thread. You
were under no obligation to post there.

Point 2 (A cloud of suspicion) I don't think in any way applies to Moire's attempt.

Then why did you make that statement knowing that Moire was the one about to attempt the round?

Point 3: "Unfortunately ultra-running in general seems to attract a lot of chancers making dubious claims".

Again why did you say this knowing that Moire was the one about to make the attempt?

It has not been progressed publicly beyond that point. I certainly have not seen a finalised policy. If it has been published could you please tell me where to find it.

That may actually be a genuine point. Why not send an email to the IMRA committee and find out?

also have a few suggestions on how to improve the document, and would love to have a the opportunity to make submissions on that without the fear of having my posts deleted

The place for making submissions is on that particular thread.
Fear of having your posts deleted is not the reason you didnt post. If so why did you post on several other threads when you were under no obligation to? Why werent you afraid of having your posts deleted then.

I take it that you're not defending the censoring of posts because the moderator doesn't like/understand the humour.

I dont have to reply to every standard of comment you make do I?

Without access to the original thread (since it has been deleted) its difficult to debate its contents. What I can tell you is that I didn't/ don't take the decision personally. I also seem to recall persisant constructive contributions to the thread, suggesting alternatives, pointing out issues that had been raised in the past in relation to juniors etc.

I do, however, have a very strong personal interest in hillrunning in Ireland, and don't like to see decisions being taken that, in my opinion, potentially harm hillrunning in Ireland. You should know that.

I should know no such thing. I know you personally like hillrunning. I know you are opinionated. Your opinions on hillrunning are irrelevant. It is the negative, self righteous and, yes, abusive way in which you make them that causes the problems.

As an aside, its rare to see a race in the phoenix park that isn't a success. Its got a lot going for it in terms of accessability etc. That still doesn't make them hill races though.

That is an opinion and you are entitled to it. You are not entitled to shove it down somebodies throat fifty times in an abusive manner where the parents of the people we want to attend the race are likely to read it.

Boards has a published system of rules, and decisions can be questioned/appealed in a defined manner.

So now weve backtracked from "boards dont delete postings" to boards has a published system of rules.

Again, I don't take it personally. I simply don't bother putting the effort into writing a post for a forum where it can be deleted on a whim.

Yes you do. Thre is only one post that you needed to post on IMRA in the last period of time. (stating youre doing WR). How many times have you posted there recently?

"We will also seek to appoint 1 or 2 support moderators for the webmaster. Inquiries of interest are welcome, so please forward them to myself at <Moderator's address> and the Committee will discuss appointment at the next Meeting."...

has this been done? I actually volunteered to do this before this statement was issued. I've heard nothing back on the matter.

Maybe someone forgot to reply. Email again.

And finally, you didn't like it when I said...

Well, in the above thread the forum moderator makes the following guidline...
"No deliberate falsehoods/lies/slander"

Firstly that was not the forum moderator that was a committee member. Do you have a beef with a particular committee member, by any chance? Is this the one you refer to as "the censor"?


The vast, vast majority of people dont want a moderator on the site. Unfortunately becuase of comments made by people such as yourself they would grudgingly admit to needing one. I believe you have almost singlehandedly caused and demanded a moderator on the IMRA forum. Some people are never happy.

If you want to discuss it further with me use the Netiquette thread. I will reply there as a forum user.

Ill admit that the draft netiquette document needs refinement. This is not the place for it, though.

Racing Flat

Enduro wrote: »

As an aside, its rare to see a race in the phoenix park that isn't a success. Its got a lot going for it in terms of accessability etc. That still doesn't make them hill races though.

As a matter of interest (due to my ignorance on hill/mountain running), what makes a race a hill race - is there a certain elevation or gradient requirement to class a race a hill race?

Slogger Jogger

No hard and fast definition really. You'll see races of various ascents and distances on the imra calendar. There are a few in late summer which are labelled trail races which have less gradient, possibly around the 200m total mark.

Theres are lots of different types of hill races. Personally I prefer the off the trail, open mountain type races. Most races will have firetrails. Many will have boggy ****e to run through or technical sections of rock and forest. All fun though

geld

Guys,

I think that this debate should be moved to the IMRA forum and the debate continued there. It is more relevant there than on boards.ie and other hillrunners can contribute.

Zuppy

geld wrote: »

Guys,

I think that this debate should be moved to the IMRA forum and the debate continued there. It is more relevant there than on boards.ie and other hillrunners can contribute.

I disagree. I for one am following this thread here and don't go to IMRA often. If the claim of censorship is true (and I don't know/ care either way) it might be better held here.

If someone who is on the IMRA forum wishes to post the link there or copy the thread to there, so be it. Just let this pleb know please.

--amadeus--

Outsiders opinion...

I don't go to the IMRA forum but a mods viewpoint is that what some some users see as witty off topic chat can be offensive to others (we've had a bit of that here in the last few days). Likewise what seems like draconian censorship can be triggered by off board actions (legal threats or ruling body policy for example). The best policy is always civil communication - if someone makes a decision you don't like politely ask why.

Now that doesn't mean that mods don't power trip sometimes, just that there may be a bigger picture.

jeffontour

As someone on the edges of IMRA I frequently check the forum and it proves useful on an individual level be it to hook up on a training run or find out some info on a route etc.

As a means of discussion relating to governance or decisions at an organisational level however I see very little effort to engage with someone like me. Be this a conscious decision of the powers that be or not that's how it looks to me as an outsider.

This thread and it's roots over on the IMRA forum are, I hope, just a case of people who are passionate about the sport having strongly held opinions and standing by them. If this is genuinely the case sobeit and if this thread facilitates that great. If it's people with personal grudges and playing politics with the thing then I'm disappointed and it serves no purpose than to paint a poor picture of the organisation to those reading this.

Enduro

I'm just back in from this evening's race... and it's a bit late for a long reply to the points raised. But I'll get to it tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks for all the other contributions. It's good to get outside opinions.

Stark

Racing Flat wrote: »

As a matter of interest (due to my ignorance on hill/mountain running), what makes a race a hill race - is there a certain elevation or gradient requirement to class a race a hill race?

You need a hill

T runner

jeffontour wrote: »

As someone on the edges of IMRA I frequently check the forum and it proves useful on an individual level be it to hook up on a training run or find out some info on a route etc.

As a means of discussion relating to governance or decisions at an organisational level however I see very little effort to engage with someone like me. Be this a conscious decision of the powers that be or not that's how it looks to me as an outsider.

This thread and it's roots over on the IMRA forum are, I hope, just a case of people who are passionate about the sport having strongly held opinions and standing by them. If this is genuinely the case sobeit and if this thread facilitates that great. If it's people with personal grudges and playing politics with the thing then I'm disappointed and it serves no purpose than to paint a poor picture of the organisation to those reading this.

Hi Jeffontour.

The places to really have your say is the forum where your point of view will be read by the IMRA members committe etc. For small things thats the place to go or else an emaul to the comitte if you feel its more appropriate in the case to speak dirextly to them rather than on the public forum.

If you see a fundamental change necessary to IMRA then any member can attend and make a motion at the AGM. This will be voted on by the members present.

As regards this thread: I have started posting here in response to posts and comments made by Enduro about the IMRA forum. I strongly believe that Enduros persistant comments on this forum and particularly on the IMRA forum telling people to use boards only is a deliberate attempt to sabotage that forum.

If you dislike something you can make a strong point about it and leave it.
If you believe that because you dislike something then everyone should stop using it then that is ego.

Its not that big a deal I guess, I dont think hell suceed but I dont think his posts should remain unchallenged.

I am a member of the IMRA committee but my posts here are as T Runner and not in that capacity.

I hope I have not said anything that would give you a poor picture of the organisation. If I have let me know and Ill reply.

My debate with Enduro here is unlikely to be based on personal grudges. I get on quite well with him in real life.

thirtyfoot

Its a brave decision by an organisation to have a forum on their own website. Only a few sporting organisations will actually do it. The website of a sporting organisation will be all about promoting their sport and keeping things positive. With that in mind if I was a moderator on a forum connected to an official sporting body I would moderate with an iron fist and not tolerate any negavite feedback and ban people.

Its hard enough getting people into and staying in the sports without what would appear to outsiders or those logging in for info etc to be infighting taking place on the official website. Not good for the image of the sport.

Racing Flat

Stark wrote: »

You need a hill

But what is a hill? i.e there are plenty of hills in the Phoenix Park, but Enduro said that races there 'do not make them a hill race' so just wondering what the requirements were...

donothoponpop

Stark wrote: »

You need a hill

Alltogethernow, "Oh no you don't!";)

donothoponpop

Racing Flat wrote: »

But what is a hill? i.e there are plenty of hills in the Phoenix Park, but Enduro said that races there 'do not make them a hill race' so just wondering what the requirements were...

I'd be disappointed if there was some sort of minimum standard for a hill race to be authenticated (too much like bureaucracy) , but the debate about holding a hill race in the Phoenix Park was different. On one side there were the organisers who were concerned about getting lots of school buses into a central area, on the other were many hill runners who felt the enrty experience to hillrunning (this was a schools event) was being diluted, when you just had to look up from the flat Phoenix Park and see the magnificant hills calling to you.

My two cents is that hillrunning is an experience before it is a distance or time sort of event- terrain, stumbles, orienteering, etc, all play their part. Holding an event in the Phoenix Park (granted, a very successful event), is akin to holding a T&F meet on a grass track, when Santry stadium was available.

earlyevening

Racing Flat wrote: »

But what is a hill? i.e there are plenty of hills in the Phoenix Park, but Enduro said that races there 'do not make them a hill race' so just wondering what the requirements were...

Why am I wasting my lunchtime researching this? I don't know, but here's a definition I found.

"There is no universally-accepted definition of mountain. In the United States, the following points of measurement have been used and taught in geography classes:

Flat to 500 feet, base to highest point - Rolling Plain
Highest point 501 to 999 feet above base - Hill
Highest point 1000 feet or more above base - Mountain "

This is not an IMRA accepted defintion, just something I quickly found while searching.

jeffontour

T runner wrote: »

I hope I have not said anything that would give you a poor picture of the organisation. If I have let me know and Ill reply.

My debate with Enduro here is unlikely to be based on personal grudges. I get on quite well with him in real life.

Nope, nothing said to put me off IMRA, my response was based purely on my own impression on how the forum and IMRA in general is run. But as I've said I'm coming from a recent members perspective so I have a lot to learn in that regard.

Regarding the personal grudges thing that's good news, there's nothing worse than seeing grown men in lycra pants rolling round in the mud arguing. Although some people are probably into that kinda thing!

Tingle wrote: »

Its a brave decision by an organisation to have a forum on their own website.

Totally agree and much praise should go to IMRA to having one.

Tingle wrote: »

With that in mind if I was a moderator on a forum connected to an official sporting body I would moderate with an iron fist and not tolerate any negavite feedback and ban people.

Totally disagree! If you offer a forum then it should be open to all feedback, not everything in every situation is correct. A forum is one of the best ways to facilitate this feedback.

I do see the issue with outsiders looking at negative feedback and comment reflecting badly however. IMRA could have a solution in the making in that any so-called "contentious" threads could be flagged as member only content visible to logged in myIMRA users only.

T runner

jeffontour wrote: »

I do see the issue with outsiders looking at negative feedback and comment reflecting badly however. IMRA could have a solution in the making in that any so-called "contentious" threads could be flagged as member only content visible to logged in myIMRA users only.

There was a particular problem with the thread on the schools race. Each particular race has a forum tab and a thread is automaitcally there for it. You can see this thread on both the Event Page (for schools in this instance) and the forum itself.

The idea behind having it viewable on the Events Page was that postings about the race would probably contain information useful to participants of that particular race and thus good to have all the info about a race in one spot. The asumption was that the contents of the thread would not be so negative as to put people off doing the race in the first place.

The combination of the negativity of the thread and the fact that it was a schools race involving minors could not have been worse.

The image of grown men rolling around the mud in lycra may well have flashed in the heads of any parent who read the thread.

There was absolutely nothing constructive in the thread of any use to a parent looking about details and info about that event. (Parents thinking that IMRA seemed to be full of immature bickering adults and thus unsuitable for their young runner is not positive information).

We had a simple and quick choice to make. Cut the entire thread or leave it there. I think the right decision was made.


There were three people who were particularly "ferocious" in their criticism of the Furry Glen as a venue. I believe they were contacted by the committee and the situation regarding the thread explained to them.

One seems to be an a one man crusade to ensure that nobody uses the IMRA forum again. Another was a journalist involved in hillrunning who omitted to mention anything about the race on their weekly page where it otherwise would have undoubtedly appeared (wheres the love there?) and the third founded the Mountain Runners Association of Ireland and is living in a log cabin on the side of Kippure.:pac:

thirtyfoot

jeffontour wrote: »

Totally disagree! If you offer a forum then it should be open to all feedback, not everything in every situation is correct. A forum is one of the best ways to facilitate this feedback.

I do see the issue with outsiders looking at negative feedback and comment reflecting badly however. IMRA could have a solution in the making in that any so-called "contentious" threads could be flagged as member only content visible to logged in myIMRA users only.

This is why I think its better to not have a forum at all connected to an official website. You'll either have:

a) young lads on having the craic, abusing each other, stirring sh*t just for mischief. This can be funny (and I have done it myself years ago) but can also be very abusive. Letsrun.com is an example.

b) people with chip on shoulder who are trying to make a point whether personal grudge, political etc. Much of this would have been done in smokey committee rooms in the past but now its easy to post gripes online. Again would have done this but have realised its counter-productive.

Don't know if the IMRA issue here is either as I'm not up to what's going down but when that stuff starts kicking off its time to shut it down I'd say if you want to keep the website focused on its primary objective.

Its easy to say free speech and all that but when you are trying to promote the sport any negativity (especially on your primary source of communication) is bad and even if not true what is said, perception is reality. As far as I know IMRA is a very 'free love' kind of organisation compared to AAI and yet reading this I as an outsider would be starting to think 'oh, oh, the egos and personalities are starting to surface' based on the perception I'm getting and you don't want to go there because after a while the craic on the trails will become secondary to the power struggles and politics.

Stark

I see no reason to shut the place down. There have been a few bruised egos and a few threads needing shutting down, but that's small change compared to the benefits the forum has brought to the membership. The vast majority of threads are full of people giving helpful and friendly advice to prospective newcomers. One comment I heard recently was in response to the question: "You ever notice how the same questions keep arising on the forum?" "Yes, but people are always willing to keep answering in a helpful and courteous manner and that's what makes the place great".

thirtyfoot

Stark wrote: »

I see no reason to shut the place down. There have been a few bruised egos and a few threads needing shutting down, but that's small change compared to the benefits the forum has brought to the membership. The vast majority of threads are full of people giving helpful and friendly advice to prospective newcomers. One comment I heard recently was in response to the question: "You ever notice how the same questions keep arising on the forum?" "Yes, but people are always willing to keep answering in a helpful and courteous manner and that's what makes the place great".

Good point. Thats why they'll have to keep on top of the moderation to ensure the courteous and positive attitude remains:cool:

T runner

Tingle wrote: »

This is why I think its better to not have a forum at all connected to an official website. You'll either have:

a) young lads on having the craic, abusing each other, stirring sh*t just for mischief. This can be funny (and I have done it myself years ago) but can also be very abusive. Letsrun.com is an example.

b) people with chip on shoulder who are trying to make a point whether personal grudge, political etc. Much of this would have been done in smokey committee rooms in the past but now its easy to post gripes online. Again would have done this but have realised its counter-productive.

Don't know if the IMRA issue here is either as I'm not up to what's going down but when that stuff starts kicking off its time to shut it down I'd say if you want to keep the website focused on its primary objective.

Its easy to say free speech and all that but when you are trying to promote the sport any negativity (especially on your primary source of communication) is bad and even if not true what is said, perception is reality. As far as I know IMRA is a very 'free love' kind of organisation compared to AAI and yet reading this I as an outsider would be starting to think 'oh, oh, the egos and personalities are starting to surface' based on the perception I'm getting and you don't want to go there because after a while the craic on the trails will become secondary to the power struggles and politics.

All good points there. By and large though we havn't had too much if the kids acting the maggot so far, some periodic visits though. The threads on the whole are still positive and informative.

Might leave at that though for this debate. Discussing further may have more of a negative impact than positive so Ill leave it there. Hopefully people wont be put off by this.