Enda Kenny v Trevor Seargent, who's lying?

mike65

Would have stuck this in the other FG/SF thread (now locked), it appears that prior to the 2007 election that Kenny sought the views of SF via Trevor Seargent of the Greens but Seargent declined to do that not beliving it was his job. Interviewed on Newstalks morning news Kenny denied he had sought out SF views in any way shape or form. Now is Kenny lying or is Seargent?


Daily Mail

"Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny was last night accused of trying to orchestrate a secret pact with Sinn Fein in an effort to become Taoiseach at the last general election. Former Green Party leader Trevor Sargent said Mr Kenny asked him to contact Sinn Fein on his behalf to see if they would support a Fine Gael-led coalition.

'Mr Kenny needed to keep his hands clean but still have Sinn Fein support him,' said Mr Sargent – who refused to make the call. The shocking claim, which is vehemently denied by Fine Gael, contrasts significantly with Mr Kenny's repeated comments this week that he 'would not be doing business' with Sinn Fein under any circumstances. However, Mr Sargent's claims were supported by a TG4 interview from April in which Mr Kenny appeared open to the prospect of working with Sinn Fein."

Joey the lips

Jesus you read the daily mail and you expect to be taken seriously! Why dont you move to england!

This is just an attempt by the main partys to elevate themselves. Although the beauty and stupidity of this is it will no doubt help sinn fein as its clear they are getting a sizable chunk of vote!

Tricity Bendix

I remember after the government was cobbled together FG started having a go at the Greens for setting up shoop with FF. This led to Sargent/Gormley (can't rightly remember) lashing out at FG and stating that if Kenny had been serious about forming a government he would have gone and talked to SF himself.

mike65

Joey the lips that was a handy link, I've heard both parties on the radio contradict each other in the last hour. Consider the story, not your own bias regarding a paper eh?

deadhead13

Well someone is lying and Trevor Sargent apparently has a witness.

Liam Byrne

deadhead13 wrote: »

Well someone is lying and Trevor Sargent apparently has a witness.

The same Trevor Sargent who pulled a fast one with his "I won't lead the Greens into Government" ?

As for the "Daily Mail" :rolleyes: they'd run a headline that Trevor Sargent saw little "green" men if they thought it would sell a few papers! :rolleyes:

So what's the story with the Greens, then ? Are they so scared of getting a whipping for allowing themselves become the new, irrelevant PDs that they're resorting to scare tactics with a "at least incompetence and corruption is better than considering SF" line ?

If there's some truth in it, it'll come out.

But Sargent's word is about as good as Bertie Ahern's.

And if it does turn out to be true, at least there's still Labour.....

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Now is Kenny lying or is Seargent?

Valid question, but how come the thread title doesn't reflect it ?

"Sargent telling a great big lie ?" would be just as appropriate.

Or better still, "who's telling the truth ? Kenny or Sargent ?"

Sully

Having heard Sargent on Radio one now, I don't believe him. Doesn't really add up and even his comments about how he said to Enda that it was "unorthodox". Plus the presenter doesn't seem to believe him either.

Red_Marauder

Sargent is on Rte radio 1 at the moment.

The Green party would be better off trying to preserve their own name than denigrating Fine Gael's so cheaply. Media opportunism, not much to see here.

P. Breathnach

Sully wrote: »

Having heard Sargent on Radio one now, I don't believe him...

Having heard the same broadcast, I do believe him. He didn't talk it up too much, either.

mike65

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Valid question, but how come the thread title doesn't reflect it ?

"Sargent telling a great big lie ?" would be just as appropriate.

Or better still, "who's telling the truth ? Kenny or Sargent ?"

Fair point, though Kenny is the one who's looking to form a government, not the greens and certainly not Seargent.

Red_Marauder

I do think EK said something along those lines to Sargent... I just don't believe it was an active approach about SF. He was approaching the Green Party mainly for their own support. Sargent was the one, accordng to himself, who brought up SF and Kenny (as Sean O Rourke on News @1 said) was clearly just thinking out loud.

Well I guess in the week that's in it, all publicity is good publicity

goldenbrown

seargent, rats and sinking ship stuff

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Fair point, though Kenny is the one who's looking to form a government, not the greens and certainly not Seargent.

Equally, Kenny has absolutely no opportunity to "form a Government" until the Greens & FF realise that they're no longer wanted.

So the step that you're missing in the above analysis is that the Greens have a vested interest in making the alternative look as unappealing as possible, making Sargent - as the former leader who pulled a massive "unwanted by the public" stroke in order to get the Greens in - VERY prone to pulling a fast one to keep them there.

Kenny might have been trying to ascertain what way SF were going to vote in the election for taoiseach which is a different thing entirely to involving them in government.

Remember EK took a long while to drop the idea that he could have formed a government at the time.
Maybe he was expecting SF to vote against Ahern and at least abstain with Kenny.

I don't know and think it's a non issue.

Chris Lowe

What exactly did Enda Kenny say to TG4, was it as has been reported

"Sinn Fein have changed. I am not ruling anyone out at all,"

?
(sourced from today's Indo)

partyguinness

If this is true then Enda Kenny is a bigger fool than I have been giving him credit for.

JonathanAnon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The same Trevor Sargent who pulled a fast one with his "I won't lead the Greens into Government" ?

Yeah, him who speaks with forked tongue. Was very disingenuous the way he went back on this statement. I think this incident takes away from his credibility regarding this incident with Enda Kenny.

I think it is important that we find out who is actually lying though. I'm sure it will come out after the elections.

partyguinness

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Yeah, him who speaks with forked tongue. Was very disingenuous the way he went back on this statement. I think this incident takes away from his credibility regarding this incident with Enda Kenny.

I think it is important that we find out who is actually lying though. I'm sure it will come out after the elections.

Well he did resign his position as party leader.

To be fair even if it is true, Enda Kenny cannot say so..his career would be finished.

Darsad

Whats the problem in trying to form a government I would expect that he Kenny would try to talk to all parties thats not to say he has to agree with them ! Anyway I think this is a cheap shot by sargent as according to him on radio 1 it was he who suggested kenny talk to the Shinners.

partyguinness

I dont know...there are cheap shots and there are cheap shots.

This is more than a cheap shot...plus this is fitting in nicely with what the Flannery gentleman said over the wend...

Red_Marauder

Is nobody in the media pressing Trevor Sargent over why he didn't make these claims earlier? As in, 2007? Two years have passed, and he just remembered it in election week.

I didn't think I could have a lower opinion of the Green Party.

This is just another unsuccessful last ditch media stunt for damage limitation. The general public have in their minds largely set FG-Lab up as the next Government. By still antagonising against these parties and towing the FF line, Sargent is alienating that public, and so is doing himself or his party more harm than good. Can nobody in the greens tell him this?

mike65

No doubt this will be overcome should FG/Lab need a third leg after the next election.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

No doubt this will be overcome should FG/Lab need a third leg after the next election.

Hopefully not, or hopefully you're referring to the Independents as the third leg.

Sully

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Is nobody in the media pressing Trevor Sargent over why he didn't make these claims earlier? As in, 2007? Two years have passed, and he just remembered it in election week.

I didn't think I could have a lower opinion of the Green Party.

This is just another unsuccessful last ditch media stunt for damage limitation. The general public have in their minds largely set FG-Lab up as the next Government. By still antagonising against these parties and towing the FF line, Sargent is alienating that public, and so is doing himself or his party more harm than good. Can nobody in the greens tell him this?

Its amusing that it comes after a stupid comment from someone in FG about SF. How very nice of Trev to decide to come clean, at such a crucial time (two days before an election and a day before coverage ban) in the local elections where his party and coalition party are set for a hammering. While on the radio he was commenting on how unorthadox it was that Kenny apparently asked him to contact SF (and wasnt able to provide a quick straight answer to pressing questions which cast doubt) on his bealf yet he never commented on this until now?!?!

mike65

The Greens had their last press conference a few hours ago, it sounds like it got quite lively. Lots of to and fro and some confusion.

IIMII

If SF had the seats, FG would be in bed with them quicker than you could blink. All of the parties know that SF in power would become part of the establishment, and seek to keep power as does every party. All of the parties have dodged SF until now because they wanted to preserve their own corner from being eroded by a growth in support for SF. An increase in support would also further change SF, as newer voters would change the party's priorities by having a broader gene-pool then the socialist / feminist one that exists at the moment.

I don't think it matters who is telling the truth. The numbers will decide when SF enters government. Don't forget that this whole row may be a ploy by FG to erode the FF voter base to reduce FF's largest party status.

This hasn't blown up by accident. It happened because it suited FG, primarily because FG are the one party that doesn't have much to lose to a resurgent SF, wheras FF do.

mike65

Er no. This risked/risks making EK look like an idiot hardly what he wants right now.

LostinBlanch

mike65 wrote: »

The Greens had their last press conference a few hours ago, it sounds like it got quite lively. Lots of to and fro and some confusion.

Newstalk had a report on it and it sounded absolutely farcical. You know things are bad when the reporter expresses sorrow for the election candidates and saying that among all the name calling they came out as the most mature people there.

IIMII

Well, it could be argued that he already looks like an idiot. Point is, most people don't mind SF anymore. They may not vote for them, but many are ambivalent towards them.

FG knows that a mainstream SF is the greatest threat to FFs status as the largest party in the state. I think there is one eye on the next election here

partyguinness

Thats true. A surge in SF is bad for FF...SF certainly wont take FG votes...a party who some of their founding fathers were Blueshirt fascists who fought with Franco. Polar opposite from SF who supported the Republicans side...but that is OT.

truebluedub

Kenny's problem is that he's been caught on the hop: Either he's lying now or he lied when interviewed on TG4 (about Frank Flannery's comments). Trevor Sargent is a credible source as he is in a position to know what he says he knows, likewise Frank Flannery.

IIMII

Also doesn't bode well for an FG / Green coalition at the next General Election. This may be the defining moment in Kenny's leadership of FG.

Sargent stands over Kenny claim

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0603/breaking60.htm

Former Green Party leader Trevor Sargent has stood over his claim that Fine Gael Enda Kenny asked him to approach Sinn Féin to sound out if the party was prepared to vote for him as Taoiseach.

As the war of words on the events following the general election in 2007 escalated, the Green Party today claimed that Fine Gael made other approaches to the Greens to act as “emissaries” or as "messenger boys”.

Fine Gael has categorically denied that Mr Kenny or any other party member or official asked the Greens to sound out Sinn Fein for any form of support or cooperation.

The current Green leader John Gormley said that the senior Fine Gael TD Phil Hogan had also spoken to him in Leinster House around that time and had asked him to sound out the possibility of Sinn Féin support in the Dáil for a Fine Gael-led coalition.

Mr Sargent said that Mr Kenny phoned him soon after the election but before any of the substantive discussions on possible formations of government had started.

“There was a realisation dawning on the basis of the figures that Fianna Fáil was going to be in Government again, with the help of the PDs and Indpendents by a whisker if the independents could be got on board.

“Fine Gael were realising that they with Labour and the Greens could only get 77 (seats). That was the scenario by which I got the phone call.

“It was a short matter-of-fact phone call about the figures. It was not about policy. It was just about are you willing to discuss policy and the possible formation of Government,” he said.

Mr Sargent said that he told Mr Kenny that the figures did not add up and that Fine Gael would have to talk to Sinn Fein.

“I said that if you want to be Taoiseach you don’t have a choice. It was then that he [Mr Kenny] said could you give them a nod or ask them a question would they be prepared to vote for him as Taoiseach.

“I said, that is a very unusual thing. You have a phone and a voice. Why don’t you ask your own questions.”

Mr Gormley and Mr Sargent were speaking at the final Green Party conference before the European and local elections, as well as the two Dublin byelections.

On his conversation with Mr Hogan, Mr Gormley said: “[He] expected us to do the spadework. Our preference at the time was for a rainbow [coalition] and you didn’t need to be an Einstein to work out that you needed those four (Sinn Féin) votes.

“I remember saying to Phil Hogan. It’s not possible without the Shinners. And he said would you talk to them?”

Elaborating on his recollection of his conversation with the Fine Gael leader, Mr Sargent said Mr Kenny said that Fine Gael did not want to talk to Sinn but he would appreciate their vote if they would vote for him as Taoiseach.

“That seemed to be the extent of his olive branch, the wonderful opportunity hat Sinn Fein would have if Enda Kenny was Taoiseach. He obviously did not want to pick up the phone.”

Mr Sargent added later: “The only way I can rationalise it is that Enda Kenny had some experience in the Ballrooms of Romance in Mayo when he asked a fellow to ask your sister ‘will she got out with me’.”

He also said that he had mentioned the matter to Sinn Fein Dáil leader Caoimhghin Ó Caoláin : I did in passing say to him you will never believe it but Enda Kenny was on to me and he is interested in your vote. So I think the best description I can give of Caoimhghin Ó Caoláin’s response was a hearty laugh.”

The press conference was attended by the party’s two European candidates Dan Boyle and Deirdre de Búrca as well as many of its local candidates in Dublin. Mr Gormley said that a vote for the Greens would help deliver green jobs and a better quality of life.

The conference was interrupted by peace activist Ed Horgan who said he was resigning from the Green Party as it had abandoned its core principles.

Mr Horgan protested that the Greens had reneged on Rossport, on the Hill of Tara and on Shannon Airport, before he was ushered to the side by officials. The Greens later said that Mr Horgan’s membership of the party has expired since 2007.

truebluedub

And now we hear FF have found contemporary evidence in an phoblacht showing FG did make overtures. If this is true this means Kenny and FG are arguing against documented fact. :rolleyes:

LostinBlanch

the greens raison d'etre is to hold onto power, nothing else.

If they thought that going in with FG would do it, they'd struggle with their conscience and then go in with them.

Dumb

Kenny - piece of shoite imo

oscarBravo

Dumb wrote: »

Kenny - piece of shoite imo

Thank you for that stellar contribution. In future, please read over your posts and ask yourself what value they contribute to the forum, before hitting the "submit" button.

truebluedub

Looks like Kenny might not have known about the overtures made to SF - it apparently came from a faction within FG who had a different position to Enda Kenny. That's what the an phoblacht article claimed.

Liam Byrne

truebluedub wrote: »

Looks like Kenny might not have known about the overtures made to SF - it apparently came from a faction within FG who had a different position to Enda Kenny. That's what the an phoblacht article claimed.

An Phoblacht & The Oirish Daily Mail ????

Are there any credible and unbiased media outlets offering "proof" ?

All joking aside, I want to know the answer to this before the next general election. Kenny & FG are currently in with a good chance of a vote, but I don't want Kenny doing a Trevor Sargent / Green u-turn on this!

nesf

Leaving aside whether or not Kenny did it for the moment, it would make sense for Kenny to approach SF through a third party just to test the water and see how they felt like voting. It is at least plausible for Kenny to approach Sergeant in this manner.

deadhead13

John Gormley is claiming to have had a similar conversation with Phil Hogan. Hogan's denial was less than convincing,

skelliser

today fm playing a clip of gormley from last friday saying fg didnt want to go into gov with sf after the 2007 GE.

game.set.match

also newstalk saying a green news conference decended into farce earlier, some member ripped up his membership card, berated the leadership over ff and then stormed out.

greens are falling apart

P. Breathnach

skelliser wrote: »

today fm playing a clip of gormley from last friday saying fg didnt want to go into gov with sf after the 2007 GE.

game.set.match

Seeking the support of a party for election to the office of Taoiseach is not the same as going into government with that party.

also newstalk saying a green news conference decended into farce earlier, some member ripped up his membership card, berated the leadership over ff and then stormed out.

greens are falling apart

I thought Patricia had already quit the party.

nkay1985

I don't know what to think on this. From a sheer numbers perspective, Fine Gael would have had to talk to SF if they wanted power. But I always thought they'd just not do it.

It seems a bit convenient for Seargent to be coming out with this now. But the reason this is getting momentum is that it is an obvious possibility that this kind of thing could have happened. Interestingly, if Seargent's account is true, then Caoimhghin O'Caolain would be able to verify it!

Sargeant wrote:

"I did in passing say to him you will never believe it but Enda Kenny was on to me and he is interested in your vote. So I think the best description I can give of Caoimhghin Ó Caoláin’s response was a hearty laugh.”

I get the feeling they'll be staying out of it though. They'd have nothing to gain.



It does all smack of desperation from the Greens though. Party in turmoil, it would seem.

denat

Sorry but I simply don't have time to read this thread in full.

I heard both Sargent and Kenny on the "news at one" today and have no doubt who was telling the truth - it was not Kenny.

old boy

a bit ironic possibly, but could voting for the greens be a waste.

Ardent

skelliser wrote: »

today fm playing a clip of gormley from last friday saying fg didnt want to go into gov with sf after the 2007 GE.

game.set.match

also newstalk saying a green news conference decended into farce earlier, some member ripped up his membership card, berated the leadership over ff and then stormed out.

greens are falling apart

Correct.

I think it's quite obvious what's happening here - on the eve of the local and European elections, the Greens are desperately playing the damage limiitation game and trying to make it look like it was FG's fault they "had to" get into bed with FF.

Red_Marauder

It's a shame really because what I always used to like about the greens was that they were a party of principle and had one big, important agenda in the environment when nobody else was pushing that agenda.

Now as the green agenda is more relevant to people than ever, the greens have suddenly put it aside to replace it with political position and power as their main raison d'etre.

I don't think they are doomed to the fate of the PDs, but they certainly are doing their best at an impersonation. If they had any backbone or crediblity they would get out before they are kicked out.

is_that_so

Nothing here at all beyond the timing suggesting that the Greens have learnt how to play as dirty as the bad boys. Phone calls with "witnesses" tend to lead to all kinds of denial, counter claims, memory lapses, mishearing, misunderstanding and a story with legs. What can be predicted with reasonable accuracy is that Mr Flannery is likely to be kept far away from elections for the foreseeable future.
There is also the risk of something like this backfiring as it allows voters to be reminded of Sargent's integrity and what the Greens themselves did in choosing FF.

LostinBlanch

old boy wrote: »

a bit ironic possibly, but could voting for the greens be a waste.

Of course not, it's a vote for FF